Dallas Theological Seminary for non-pastoral graduate work?

[CAStratman]

Hey all.

I am prayerfully considering the possibility of pursuing some advanced education in theology, but not in the direction of pastoral ministry. I briefly attended RTS Dallas, but since their curriculum is largely geared toward pastors-in-training, it didn't feel like a good fit. I live in Dallas and have many friends who have gone to DTS for various programs. I am Reformed and covenantal in my views (I attend a PCA church), but I understand that DTS has historically strong dispensationalist leanings. Would DTS still be a good option for pursuing an MA in Bible/Theology or even an academic PhD? (Just some background: I am technically ABD in English, but dropped out before the dissertation due to lack of meaningful job prospects in the humanities. I might be interested in teaching/research with a doctorate in theology.)

Are there other schools that offer good non-pastoral graduate programs in bible/theology that I should consider? Moving is not an option for me for the foreseeable future (wife/kids/job/etc), so if there are online or distance programs that fit my interests, please share them!

 

[Deleted member 13126]

Hey all.

I am prayerfully considering the possibility of pursuing some advanced education in theology, but not in the direction of pastoral ministry. I briefly attended RTS Dallas, but since their curriculum is largely geared toward pastors-in-training, it didn't feel like a good fit. I live in Dallas and have many friends who have gone to DTS for various programs. I am Reformed and covenantal in my views (I attend a PCA church), but I understand that DTS has historically strong dispensationalist leanings. Would DTS still be a good option for pursuing an MA in Bible/Theology or even an academic PhD? (Just some background: I am technically ABD in English, but dropped out before the dissertation due to lack of meaningful job prospects in the humanities. I might be interested in teaching/research with a doctorate in theology.)

Are there other schools that offer good non-pastoral graduate programs in bible/theology that I should consider? Moving is not an option for me for the foreseeable future (wife/kids/job/etc), so if there are online or distance programs that fit my interests, please share them!

Have you considered IRBS?

 

[iainduguid]

Hi Connor,
First, the bad news: there are far more people with first rate PhD's in theological subjects than there are open positions. When I moved from Grove City College to Westminster, there were more that 100 applicants; the three finalists all had PhD's from top universities (Edinburgh, Cambridge, Catholic) as well as teaching experience. Obviously two of them went away disappointed. So the job prospects are similarly bad to those in English, maybe even worse.

Next, look at the faculty at the kind of places you want to teach. Does any of them have a Dallas PhD? In most cases, it wouldn't stack up against the competition. Even someone with a Westminster PhD will have an uphill battle, though we do manage to place some of our PhD's in teaching positions. What is more, there is nothing more challenging than working with a supervisor who doesn't understand your perspective. That doesn't necessarily rule out a place like Dallas, but does mean that you should carefully study the faculty of anywhere you are considering going and make sure that you can access the right supervisor.

PhD's take a long time to get and are generally very expensive. Even if you get a full ride scholarship covering tuition and a stipend, it won't support a family (or even most singles, unless you are very cheap). You have to want to do the PhD because it is the thing you most love in the whole world (outside God), not because it will get you a job, or even really support you during the process. You will probably have to work alongside your study, making the process even longer. And the job you will finally get wouldn't pay you more than jobs you could get with your masters, so don't take on any more debt. Sure you could get an unaccredited PhD from anywhere for much less cost, but that won't enable you to teach at any accredited school. Those are primarily for your own enrichment (or perhaps to teach at that unaccredited school), rather than really being a qualification for anything.

On the other hand, the world is full of theological schools with need, if you are willing to support raise and go as a missionary. You probably don't need a PhD for that, though there are places where one could be handy. But it makes sense to go to a school that will train you in the right way to read the Bible, rather than one where you are constantly trying to dismiss their perspective on God's Word. These days there are plenty of good online programs from reformed seminaries (including WTS); whether you could get into a first rate PhD program from an online Masters has yet to be determined. It will undoubtedly happen at some point, but maybe not for a few years.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Just a couple things to bear in mind: (1) the very lens by which we read and understand Scripture is "different" from one theological camp to another. Much more than the particular dispensationalist doctrinal points, you'd be schooled - in a very fundamental and almost imperceptible way- into a way of looking at Scripture that is consistent with those things. (2) the ethos of the schools commitments, and of those in attendance, would be taught by way of enculturation and saturation. Think of it this way: the most damaging stuff a child will learn in public schools is not from the teachers and administrators, it comes by way of the enculturation they receive being surrounded by their peers.

 

[dsanch1120]

Not sure if this has changed, but I remember reading in a Sam Storms book that a friend of his wasn’t allowed to graduate because he went from pre to amillennial. I’m not a seminary grad, lord willing I may attend next year, but if I’m going to devote multiple years of my life to being taught theology, I’d like it to be from a seminary I agree with.

 

[John The Baptist]

You have to want to do the PhD because it is the thing you most love in the whole world (outside God), not because it will get you a job, or even really support you during the process.

Not to derail here, and if it is considered such I will start a new thread.

I’ve heard this advice a lot. What does one do if they want a teaching position as a seminary? Other than recognize the small market and difficulty of getting there, what should one do?

Thanks

 

[Andres]

No

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

That seminary is literally ground zero for dispensationalist studies in the USA. Possibly the world. It is diametrically opposed to a covenantal understanding of the scriptures. I personally would avoid it.

 

[iainduguid]

Not to derail here, and if it is considered such I will start a new thread.

I’ve heard this advice a lot. What does one do if they want a teaching position as a seminary? Other than recognize the small market and difficulty of getting there, what should one do?

Thanks

Make sure you graduate from a high quality undergrad and MDiv with excellent grades and no debt. Get full funding for your PhD at a highly rated program. Have a plan B, if you don't get hired. Since most people who teach in a seminary should have pastoral experience, they ought to have the gifts for pastoral ministry, so that shouldn't really be an issue. The church needs pastors who can think clearly about Biblical and theological issues, not just seminary professors.

Seriously, higher education is in a shrinking phase, not a growth phase. At the same time as there will be fewer and fewer full time jobs, there will be more adjunct opportunities. For example, at WTS we hire quite a few excellent adjuncts to support our online program. These are men, usually with PhD's who have other jobs to support them and their families, but who enjoy the opportunity to keep a finger in teaching through the online medium. That trend is only going to increase.

However, as I said earlier, the global needs and opportunities for theological education are exploding. If you are willing to go outside America (which likely means raising your own support), there is no shortage of opportunities at all. It is also plausible that the same people and churches who will support you on the mission field might also help support you through your PhD program, if you are committed to serving the global church.

 

[Jake]

Wouldn't some of attending DTS depend on your goals, what you are studying, and who under? After all, Conner said he is not studying for the pastorate. I think Daniel B. Wallace would be excellent to study under, but I wouldn't attend DTS to be a pastor.

 

[Edward]

but I understand that DTS has historically strong dispensationalist leanings.

Not a fan of DTS, but I don't know that I'd call it strong Dispensational - Some PDs and not much in the way of Hyper. And some good folks there - Dr. Hannah comes to mind. (I notice his Ph.D. is from UTD, so there's that).

 

[Polanus1561]

Brother, as many have said, you need to determine the end goal for the future and see which options help you work towards that goal.

 

[dsanch1120]

Not a fan of DTS, but I don't know that I'd call it strong Dispensational - Some PDs and not much in the way of Hyper. And some good folks there - Dr. Hannah comes to mind. (I notice his Ph.D. is from UTD, so there's that).

I think they’ve moved more PD over time, which is good, however still quite far from covenant theology.

 

[SolaScriptura]

I think they’ve moved more PD over time, which is good, however still quite far from covenant theology.

Instead of saying “good” I prefer to say it’s “less bad.”

 

[Edward]

I think they’ve moved more PD over time, which is good, however still quite far from covenant theology.

Yes, if the original poster was looking for a preaching degree, I'd give it a hard NO. But since he isn't I'm more mellow.

 

[Pilgrim]

Why not do RTS online? I think you can do most if not all of it online, but I haven't looked in a good while. You can basically audit many classes from many seminaries for free as well. RTS might also be cheaper than Dallas, which was one of the more expensive evangelical seminaries, the last time I checked. I think the only one more expensive was TEDS. But that was probably over 10 years ago.

This is from a layman's perspective, so take it for what it's worth:

Dispensationalism aside, the biggest problem with DTS today seems to be that it is trending woke and egal. Maybe they continue to put out some solid graduates (from their point of view, of course) that mostly toil in obscurity, but almost every DTS grad I've run into online in recent years seems to be coming from somewhere left of center. And that goes for some of the faculty as well. If you like people such as Russell Moore and Beth Moore, you might fit right in. Otherwise, probably not, if these grads and profs are any indication of the overall direction of the school.

With regard to being a seminary that develops dispensationalism or critiques other views from that perspective, it seems to me that DTS hasn't been the Dispensational leader for a long time. That "crown" seemed to move to TMS at some point maybe 20-25 years ago, and is maybe being transferred to Shepherd's Theological Seminary at this point, where several former Masters Seminary profs (including Michael Vlach, who is probably the premier dispensational scholar today) have moved. The hard core Dispensationalists started jumping ship from DTS back in the 90s. One of the reasons for developing progressive dispensationalism in the first place (at least that of the Bock/Blaising variety) was a desire to find some theological basis for social justice advocacy.

If you have a strong preference for in-person studies, I'm half inclined to say that SWBTS might actually be a better choice than DTS today although they are in the midst of heavy turmoil. And they may have a few of the same problems. Both will be viewed by many with a jaundiced eye in Reformed circles, especially with the wide variety of Reformed programs online today.

 

[Pilgrim]

Not sure if this has changed, but I remember reading in a Sam Storms book that a friend of his wasn’t allowed to graduate because he went from pre to amillennial.

Those days are long gone. I think Storms was talking about the 70s or maybe the early 80s at the latest. All that DTS students have to affirm now is a very basic doctrinal statement that doesn't take a position on millennial views.