Dance in Worship....

[PuritanCovenanter]

(Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

(Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Okay,

I recently attended a worship service where we were singing the song Holy, Holy, Holy. During the song there were three moderately dressed women doing a ballet inside a circle of red ribbon. It was suppose to symbolize the unity of fellowship in the blood of Christ.

The two passages above were used to justify a prescription in dancing during the worship service. This is not an EP debate so please keep the EP debate out of this. But I am not so sure this is a prescription for a worship service as much as something we are allowed to do outside of it as David did before the return of the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple during his time. He danced before the Lord as the ark was on its return home. It was worship but it wasn't in the Temple either.

How might I respond to this in a right manner?

 

[KMK]

Did they have timbrels?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

They had a drum set, bass guitar, guitar, horns, stringed instruments. They had an orchestra.

 

[matt01]

How might I respond to this in a right manner?

Find the nearest exit, and use it...

We attended a full-gospel years back with my in-laws. There was a good deal of dancing and wierd movements. I still regret not leaving during the middle of the show.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

This is a Church I was a member at 8 years ago. I was a member there for 12 years when I was married. It is a pretty good church for the most part. Theologically it is pretty good. I am not ready to abandon it so fast.

 

[PresbyDane]

Well all I know is that this does not belong in the church service, so you will have to talk to the pastor, and maybe bring 2-3 people with you that mean the same thing you do.
But if that does not help I see no option but to leave.

 

[Scott1]

Likely you will get some thorough answers here.

The regulative principle governs in reformed theology so we need to be very careful what we do as an ordinance of corporate worship.

In a sense, almost everything we do can be an act of "worship" but that does not mean it is the means God ordains for public worship. Intending some activity as "worship" does not necessarily make it so either- we are not free to imagine what we would about corporate worship, but must follow His Word, and carefully so.

My understanding now is that dancing is not an ordinance of public (corporate) worship and ought not replace the ordinary elements of worship:

1) reading of Scripture
2) preaching the Word
3) prayer
4) partaking of the sacraments
5) church discipline
6) singing spiritual songs
7) receiving tithes and offerings

And occasionally:

6) fasting
7) oaths and vows
8) thanksgiving

I think our Confessions sum the elements of corporate worship pretty much this way and anything outside of that is not really (corporate) worship as prescribed by our God.

 

[Augusta]

According to the RPW, no, it is not, among other things, commanded and is therefore forbidden.

 

[JBaldwin]

This is becoming more common in worship services, and not just in the pentecostal churches. I was surprised when I went to a homeschool dinner/talent night this past weekend to see two girls dressed in their church dance clothes dancing to "christian" music. What bothered me the most was the way in which they were dressed.

I don't see dance as one of the things mentioned in NT as being allowed or even implied in corporate worship. It would be interesting to do a study what was meant by dance in the Psalms. I would be inclined to think that this was something done as an entire group as opposed to someone getting up in front and dancing, though I could be wrong about that.

 

[caddy]

Me & the Misses after our Shepparding Meeting!

Video: Dancin' The Boogie - Silvan Zingg (piano), Will & Maéva ? ? ?

 

[Prufrock]

(This is not a rhetorical question). Does "dancing before the LORD" ever occur in the OT apart from unique circumstances? I can think of, obviously, David when the ark was brought into Jerusalem, the women danced after Pharaoh's army was destroyed; are there any others? These don't seem to be "normal parts of worship," but rather jubilant responses to specific events in salvation history. I wouldn't be surprised if the disciples had a little "beat" in their step when Jesus rose from the dead; but it would seem to be a big jump to say it was ever (under any dispensation) normative for worship.

 

[A.J.]

(Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

(Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Okay,

I recently attended a worship service where we were singing the song Holy, Holy, Holy. During the song there were three moderately dressed women doing a ballet inside a circle of red ribbon. It was suppose to symbolize the unity of fellowship in the blood of Christ.

The two passages above were used to justify a prescription in dancing during the worship service. This is not an EP debate so please keep the EP debate out of this. I am not EP. But I am not so sure this is a prescription for a worship service as much as something we are allowed to do outside of it as David did before the return of the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple during his time. He danced before the Lord as the ark was on its return home. It was worship but it wasn't in the Temple either.

How might I respond to this in a right manner?

Martin, it seems that the context of Psalm 150 is similar to the context of Psalm 149. These Psalms speak of a time of war. Those who use these texts to advocate dance in worship should at least read through Psalm 149. The Word says,

Psalm 149:5-9 (ESV) Let the godly exult in glory; let them sing for joy on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their throats and two-edged swords in their hands, to execute vengeance on the nations and punishments on the peoples, to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, to execute on them the judgment written! This is honor for all his godly ones. Praise the Lord!

Verse 3 (ESV) indicates dancing, and the use of tambourine and lyre in this time of war. Advocates of dancing are happily inconsistent that they do not bring their swords (knives?), chains and fetters of iron inside the church to bring God's judgment upon the wicked.

-----Added 3/16/2009 at 11:07:43 EST-----

P.S. Btw, my two younger sisters are tambourine dancers in their Pentecostal church.

 

[KMK]

I am not aware of any examples of 'choreographed' dance in the OT or NT. Miriam and David danced upon the emotion of the moment.

Choreographed body movements have no Biblical warrant in worship. However, I don't see how you can regulate 'moving' during worship altogether.

 

[jwithnell]

I think the key here is that "worship" dance is almost always a performance. There is no way for the congregation to participate other than to watch and think, wow they dance well (or terribly but I won't go there).

 

[Contra_Mundum]

Is worship a "spectator sport"?

How is watching a bunch of "moves", even "chaste" moves, supposed to edify me? Does it come with a "program of instruction" that verbally teaches me what all the "moves" mean?

They're doing it while the rest of us are singing? Are we supposed to sing, or watch, or both? How is this supposed to be integrated in congregational response-dialog? I should think the only way the Army of the Lord (the congregation) can do "dance" is if we're all sort of "marching" in unison...

How is this ballet universal? Can an Eskimo do it? Or understand it? Should we have "Eskimo-dance Appreciation Sunday?" Why, or why not?


OK, I can think of a way that we CAN have dance in the worship service. Since worship is dialogical, and there's no way the whole congregation is going to be dancing as one unit, I guess that leaves the ordained leaders as the only ones who are allowed to put on the show. Tutus (ephods) for the elders! What? They didn't teach dance in seminary? What were they thinking?


Why not have a dog-and-pony show in church? Or a sheep-and-goat show? They USED to be a part of worship! Integrally. Just because we don't slaughter them anymore, doesn't mean we should exclude them. I think they have a RIGHT to be in church. Now we just have to figure out how to use them in worship without killing them.

 

[KMK]

How about a trapeze ministry?

 

[Beoga]

(Psa 149:3) Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.

(Psa 150:4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

Okay,

I recently attended a worship service where we were singing the song Holy, Holy, Holy. During the song there were three moderately dressed women doing a ballet inside a circle of red ribbon. It was suppose to symbolize the unity of fellowship in the blood of Christ.

The two passages above were used to justify a prescription in dancing during the worship service. This is not an EP debate so please keep the EP debate out of this. I am not EP. But I am not so sure this is a prescription for a worship service as much as something we are allowed to do outside of it as David did before the return of the Ark of the Covenant to the Temple during his time. He danced before the Lord as the ark was on its return home. It was worship but it wasn't in the Temple either.

How might I respond to this in a right manner?

Martin, it seems that the context of Psalm 150 is similar to the context of Psalm 149. These Psalms speak of a time of war. Those who use these texts to advocate dance in worship should at least read through Psalm 149. The Word says,

Psalm 149:5-9 (ESV) Let the godly exult in glory; let them sing for joy on their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their throats and two-edged swords in their hands, to execute vengeance on the nations and punishments on the peoples, to bind their kings with chains and their nobles with fetters of iron, to execute on them the judgment written! This is honor for all his godly ones. Praise the Lord!

Verse 3 (ESV) indicates dancing, and the use of tambourine and lyre in this time of war. Advocates of dancing are happily inconsistent that they do not bring their swords (knives?), chains and fetters of iron inside the church to bring God's judgment upon the wicked.

-----Added 3/16/2009 at 11:07:43 EST-----

P.S. Btw, my two younger sisters are tambourine dancers in their Pentecostal church.

Not that I am advocating this line of reasoning, but what if someone responds to your line of argument by saying something to the effect of:
"We are in a Spiritual Battle, so while we do not have physical swords, chains, and fetters of iron, we still wage war with the things described in Ephesians 6. Therefore, we are not being inconsistent with advocating dancing."
I don't know how I would respond, so I ask.

 

[A.J.]

Not that I am advocating this line of reasoning, but what if someone responds to your line of argument by saying something to the effect of:
"We are in a Spiritual Battle, so while we do not have physical swords, chains, and fetters of iron, we still wage war with the things described in Ephesians 6. Therefore, we are not being inconsistent with advocating dancing."
I don't know how I would respond, so I ask.

I would say that it is true that we are in a spiritual battle. We are to put the whole armor of God as we fight the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places (Eph.6:10ff). But I would also ask, what does physical dancing have to do with it? The warfare and the weapons described in Psalm 149 are physical. (There are actual swords, chains and fetters of iron.) So is the dancing. If our warfare today and the weapons we use (e.g. the sword of the Spirit which is the word of God, Eph. 6:17) are spiritual since the Lord's kingdom is not of this world (John 18:36), then does it not necessarily follow that the dancing (if it is still to be practiced in the worship of the NT) should be spiritual as well? Is there "spiritual" dancing? There is none. Now I'm not trying to be funny here. But I hope you see the point. That's where the logic of the argument goes.

If someone were to advocate the line of reasoning in your example, the best response would still be the the RPW. God's covenant people in the OT had circumcstances which were peculiar to their time, and which had passed away when Christ confirmed the New Covenant with his blood. It is because Christ has come that we don't offer physically bloody animal sacrifices anymore as the OT believers did (Heb. 7-10). Dancing is prohibited because it is neither commanded nor exemplified nor can be deduced by good and necessary consequence as part of the worship of the NT church.

 

[Knoxienne]

How about a trapeze ministry?

I'm sure it's been done.

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

Evangelicalism by-and-large is Non-RPW. The Normative principle can be construed to allow dance. However, John Frame's broadened view of RPW would even allow it within certain bounds.

Therefore the answer is apparently clear to the strict RPWers, but not so to others.

 

[Craig]

I'm not sure how I would respond. I doubt I would make a commotion about it. Part of me says that is something that could be part of a celebration of God's goodness, not necessarily the formal assembly. At the same time, it seems dangerous to respond as Michal did:

20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, "How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, disrobing in the sight of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!"

21 David said to Michal, "It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD's people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor."

23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.

And David, it should be noted, was not really a Levite...technically shouldn't have been wearing an ephod...also, he looked pretty scandalous doing as much.

***edit***
On second thought, something occurred to me. David was leading the procession. If women are dancing, they are *leading*...which is contrary to God's Word.

If anything, you could make the argument that the men, specifically the leaders, ought to be doing the dancing!

To my mind, this is one of the greatest errors of evangelicalism: the feminization of worship. I wonder if the dancing would be more valiant if done by men? Graceful was probably not a description of David's dance!

 

[FenderPriest]

Personally, I think you should just give in and do a little jig... but that's just me.

 

[Herald]

Once the barn door is opened all sorts of critters get out. That's the easy part. The hard part is trying to get them back in.

 

[JBaldwin]

How about a trapeze ministry?

I'm sure it's been done.

Every time I go visit a friend of mine, she tells me about what they are doing in her church. They've had full blown circus acts in the church "to draw in the lost" (at least that's their excuse). It's the second largest and most well-attended church in the county. Yikes.

 

[Scott1]

Evangelicalism by-and-large is Non-RPW. The Normative principle can be construed to allow dance. However, John Frame's broadened view of RPW would even allow it within certain bounds.

Therefore the answer is apparently clear to the strict RPWers, but not so to others.

You're right.

This is a benefit of having a Confession, and being bound together in unity by one.

Westminster Confession of Faith
Chapter XXI
Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9] according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]

...

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

Westminster Larger Catechism

Q. 108. What are the duties required in the second commandment?

A. The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his Word;[518] particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;[519] the reading, preaching, and hearing of the Word;[520] the administration and receiving of the sacraments;[521] church government and discipline;[522] the ministry and maintainance thereof;[523] religious fasting;[524] swearing by the name of God;[525] and vowing unto him;[526] as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing all false worship;[527] and, according to each one’s place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.[528]

 

[Jimmy the Greek]

The real question is, Were their heads covered??

 

[Knoxienne]

How about a trapeze ministry?

I'm sure it's been done.

Every time I go visit a friend of mine, she tells me about what they are doing in her church. They've had full blown circus acts in the church "to draw in the lost" (at least that's their excuse). It's the second largest and most well-attended church in the county. Yikes.

This thread and your circus comment reminds me of a story a preacher told in a RPW sermon about a baby elephant being brought into the sanctuary in one megachurch for the kids to ride. I wonder if it's the church you mentioned? After the show was over, they had to replace the entire carpet.

 

[LawrenceU]

I'm concerned over the fact that there were 'three moderately dressed' women dancing.

 

[KMK]

The real question is, Were their heads covered??

And, whether they were dancing to metered Psalms or not!

 

[Sven]

There are some things I think we need to consider here: 1) dance as a cultural activity, 2) dance as an act of worship, and 3) dance as art.

1. In our culture, we have grown accustomed to thinking of dance as a "worldly" thing to do. This idea probably came from the Puritans and the Anabaptists (we should probably consider the Anabaptist influence more when talking about broader evangelicalism). Dance as a pastime was looked down upon by these two groups. However, if we look beyond our British/European roots, dancing is not considered one of the three deadly sins (along with smoking and drinking). The Jews are probably our most prime example of those who do not consider dancing evil. True, like all things, dancing can be used for evil purposes, but evil purposes do not make a thing bad in itself. We have many examples of dancing in the Old and New Testaments. It was a common practice in the Jewish culture. It is not considered a bad thing. It is, in fact, commended by Scripture.

2. In Scripture, dance was done for different reasons. It was done when God subdued Israel's enemies, it was done at feasts and different celebrations, it was done for kings, it was done for joy because of God's redemptive acts, and it was done even in front of idols. Scripture shows the good and the bad uses of dancing. Most of the times, however, dancing was done it was in response to God's redemptive acts. Hence we see the Israelites dancing before the drowned Egyptian Army, David dancing before the Ark, the psalms speaking of dancing because of God's great works, and even we see John the Baptist dancing for joy in the womb of his mother when he heard the voice of Mary. The word we usually see translated as "lept" is a reference to dance. The word "euangelion" as Tyndale points out, means "good news that makes one dance and leap for joy." Dance is a spontaneous act of worship. Notice I said spontaneous. I think we need to consider this in worship. Many want to put dance into worship as an art, but dance is a spontaneous act not a planned event.


3. Many want dance in worship because they want art in worship. But God has specifically designed his worship to be a means of grace to us. In the OT the worship was more visual because the revelation of Christ did was still dim, but now in the NT we have a fuller revelation of Christ; therefore, the many types have been done away with and the worship is centered around Word and Spirit. Art is good thing created by God, but we must keep it out of the worship because art, being from the realm of general revelation, cannot serve as a means of grace. Does that mean no dance? Well, dance, as a visual art, should not be done in worship because God has ordained specific ordinances to be used in worship for our benefit as means of grace. Dance as art is therefore forbidden according to the RPW. Dance, however, as a spontaneous reponse to God's goodness to his people, I am not so willing to say is forbidden because of the many examples we have in Scripture. Obviously prudence needs to be exercised, but we should keep in mind that the Bible does not promote a cerebral Christianity, but a whole man Christianity. Expressing out love and joy to God by the use of our bodies is commended in Scripture not discouraged.

Those are my thoughts on this matter, feel free to slay them at your disposal.