Daniel 4 v8 "...according to the name of my god" Born again or not?

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Eoghan

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Referring to Daniel as Belteshazzar, Nebuchadnezzar seems to be referring to his gods of Babylon. This after he had been through the humbling experience of being given the mind of a beast of the field. It is written (chapter 4) after the event, Nebuchadnezzar is speaking with the benefit of hindsight. Yet he still refers to the gods of Babylon as "his".

This makes me hesitant to call him a brother in the faith. Yes Nebuchadnezzar has acknowledged/experienced much but has he forsaken the gods of Babylon and become monotheistic. Has he forsaken the gods of babylon - this would probably have had political repercussions for him as king.

Nope this verse alone I think allows me to question Nebs. conversion. Apologies to allthose convinced otherwise.
 
Well I would read the commentaries.

Is Neb speaking in the way he did to Daniel before he was humbled?

But at the last Daniel came in before me, whose name [was] Belteshazzar, according to the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods: and before him I told the dream, saying,(KJV)

At last Daniel came in before me--he who was named Belteshazzar after the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods [fn] --and I told him the dream, saying,

(4:8) Or Spirit of the holy God; also verses 9, 18 (ESV)

If the word for gods/God in 4:8,9 and 18 is elohim, then there may be some debate(?)

At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever. His dominion is an eternal dominion; his kingdom endures from generation to generation. (Dan 4:34)
 
Upper or lower case "G"?

I was gobsmacked to read my IVP commentary using upper case G in reference to Daniel's Babylonian name. This it does on p78 supposedly from the RSV. Yet when I check in my RSV this is NOT true.

RSV ...name of my god
Living Bible :D... after my god
CJB ...the name of my god
NIV ...the name of my god
NASV ...the name of my god
KJV ...name of my god
ESV ...name of my god

So what exactly is Ronald S. Wallace quoting I wonder? p 78

The Hebrew is H426 elahh (from the Chaldee according to e-sword) again fitting in with the translation of god with lower case G. If the Living Bible can get it right what is the IVP commentary doing?

By moving to an upper case 'G', Wallace makes it unnecessary to deal with what, on the face of it, is Nebuchadnezzar's continuing paganism.

I will keep this thread updated as I continue to dig into it.
 
What about this observation: Dan. chs. 1-4 is one, coherent narrative. It is "Nebuchadnezzar's Story." Daniel and his three friends are all supporting characters in this drama. Looked at this way, I cannot see how one can miss the fact that Nebuchadnezzar is a changed man at the end.

In fact, the exilic-circumstances of Israel in Babylon help highlight another biblical parallel: Nebuchadnezzar is a parallel to Pharaoh. Both are oppressors of Israel. Both are extreme idolaters. Big difference, Moses brought the law to Pharaoh; but Daniel brought the gospel to Nebuchadnezzar.

If all we had in Scripture concerning God's ways with the most powerful men in the world was the example of Pharaoh, I suppose we might reasonably wonder if any such persons could be saved. God's sole way of dealing with hardened oppressors like him is to BREAK them in pieces. Like God's sole remedy for a world-gone-bad is to give it a good (deadly) bath, i.e. the Flood.

But like the fact that the second-time-around, with a world-going-bad no differently than before, God calls Abraham and makes him a salvation promise--"Nebuchadnezzar's Story" changes our perspective on whether some men are actually beyond grace. The gospel can change anyone, if God wills it. The oppressed brings grace to the oppressor. This is the message of Dan.1-4.
 
Neb's empire is in a line with Pharaoh's Egypt and the other empires that interact with God's people:

1.Egypt

2.Assyria

3.Babylonia

4.Medo-Persia

5.Greece

6.Rome

7.The various kingdoms and empires of the partially Christianised Western Civilisation since it looked as if Christianity had triumphed with Constantine.

One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. (Rev. 13:3, ESV)
 
Immediately the word was fulfilled against Nebuchadnezzar. He was driven from among men and ate grass like an ox, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair grew as long as eagles' feathers, and his nails were like birds' claws.(Dan. 4:23, ESV)

Neb became like one of the statues which guarded the gates of his city - man, ox and bird.

View attachment 2025

Maybe these statues were idolatrously related to the cherubim (?)
 
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Nebuchadnezzar in dealing with the dream about the statue, throwing Myshack, Yourshack and Abungalow into the fire - seems to display syncretism. He takes from the Jewish religion and adds it to his own Babylonian religion.

I am not inclined to accept Nebuchadnezzar as born-again. Is he ever referred to elsewhere in scripture as a believer? Does he clear Babylon of idols?
 
The first was like a lion and had eagles' wings. Then as I looked its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the ground and made to stand on two feet like a man, and the mind of a man was given to it. (Daniel 7:4, ESV)

Patrick Fairbairn points out that in this prophecy that corresponds to the one about the Great Image in Daniel 2, Daniel sees the four great empires as beasts rather than an impressive image, because it is the godly Daniel that is seeing the real character of these empires this time, rather than Neb, who in his Babylonian carnality sees their glory, rather than their unsanctified state.

So the head of gold corresponds to the lion with eagle's wings, which corresponds to the Babylonian empire headed up by Neb.

But, for Fairbairn, the fact that Neb the beast, heading up his beastly empire, becomes a man is explained by Neb's conversion.

I don't know why you're holding out against Neb's conversion, Eoghan. Is it because he was so wicked? It is by grace we are saved. If God wanted to convert Neb, it wouldn't be any more difficult than converting Pharaoh, Sennacherib, Nero, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot or Idi Amin, or you or me. Maybe we think such things are unlikely because we think that we are so much better than these people - which we may be, in a sense.

This reminds us that all worldly power is unsanctified and beastly, however glorious and positive it may be in other ways. The glories of the British Empire and American might were/are only very partially sanctified by the presence of Christ's Kingdom in the World.

For the postmillennialist, a day is coming in history, when the salvific and sanctifying influence of Christ and His Spirit and His Word, through His Church, will be much more comprehensive and thorough,
 
I don't know why you're holding out against Neb's conversion, Eoghan.

Richard, I am "holding out" because I do not see conversion in the text. The text of course being scripture and not commentaries such as Wallace who sees personal salvation as the central theme of Daniel.

I am curious how Daniel appears to "use" documents from Nebuchadnezzar in what is essnetially Daniel's book. Anyway off to read Rushdoony and will update this thread in due course. If there is something IN SCRIPTURE indicating a conversion to Judaism then please direct me to the text. I know others hold the private opinion that Neb was converted, I just think this opinion is in spite of v8 and not because of it. Changing the text as Wallace appears to do changes the translation and the plain reading of the text.

I rather thought that the perspicuity of scripture was something we all subscribed to. The verse clearly states that AFTER his "experience" Neb still speaks of the Babylonian gods as his. The particular one we can identify as being linked to Daniel's Babylonian name Belteshazzar meaning prince of Bel. Nebuchadnezzar's god AFTER his experience is Bel.

Sorry Richard but any converted person would be most careful to distance himself from former beliefs.

Instead of accusing me of "holding out", Richard, ask yourself why you are so ready to accept a religious experience as necessitating conversion. This does seem to be a little bit "easy believism". Richard, I think you go too far if you are going to suggest that Nebuchadnezzar's adherence to the god Bel is just a matter of a young convert's lack of instruction - wouldn't you agree?
 
Let's not argue about it :cool: Maybe I just like the idea of meeting old Neb in Heaven.

Fairbairn and Olyott think he was converted. He wouldn't need to become a Jew to be converted, as there were Gentile God-fearers in the OT - hence the Court of the Gentiles in the Temples.

He'd just be a "second class" believer, along with the other Gentiles.

At last Daniel came in before me--he who was named Belteshazzar after the name of my god, and in whom is the spirit of the holy gods [fn] --and I told him the dream, saying, "O Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, because I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you and that no mystery is too difficult for you, tell me the visions of my dream that I saw and their interpretation. (Dan 4:8-9, ESV)

Clearly Neb is talking about how he viewed things before his conversion. He had named Daniel by the god he followed before his conversion.

It has seemed good to me to show the signs and wonders that the Most High God has done for me. How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and his dominion endures from generation to generation. (Dan 4:2-3)

Neb is a changed man and doesn't talk about his gods here.

and seven periods of time shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men and gives it to whom he will.(Dan 4:25)

Daniel says Neb will be converted.

At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever, for his dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom endures from generation to generation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, "What have you done?" At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me. Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble. (Dan 4:34-37)

Looks like Neb has been gloriously if painfully converted.
 
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Rushdoony on Nebuchadnezzar's "faith"

Rushdoony openly acknowledges thatt, "...his proclamation is part couched in polytheistic terms, it is significant that such references appear in his description of his thinking prior to his recovery." p 31

This Rushdoony appears to direct at the later parts of Chapter four - not addressing the reference to Bel as his god.

This does raise the question of "Bel and the Dragon"

from wikipedia -

The tale of Bel and the Dragon incorporated as chapter 14 of the extended Book of Daniel was written in Aramaic around the late 2nd century BC and translated into Greek in the Septuagint. This chapter, along with chapter 13, is referred to as deuterocanonical, in that it is not universally accepted among Christians as belonging to the canonical works accepted as the Bible. The text is viewed as apocryphal by Protestants and typically not found in modern Protestant Bibles, though it was in the original 1611 edition of the King James Version :worms:. It's listed in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England.[1]

In this 1611 edition (?) the Babylonians are indignant. "The king has become a Jew; he has destroyed Bel, and killed the dragon, and slaughtered the priests," they say, and demand that Daniel be handed over to them.

I will keep digging but I am not entirely happy with what I am digging up! :(
 
The tale of Bel and the Dragon incorporated as chapter 14 of the extended Book of Daniel was written in Aramaic around the late 2nd century BC and translated into Greek in the Septuagint. This chapter, along with chapter 13, is referred to as deuterocanonical, in that it is not universally accepted among Christians as belonging to the canonical works accepted as the Bible. The text is viewed as apocryphal by Protestants and typically not found in modern Protestant Bibles, though it was in the original 1611 edition of the King James Version . It's listed in Article VI of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England.[1]

Remember that this is Wikipedia and dig in the proper way.
 
He wouldn't need to become a Jew to be converted, as there were Gentile God-fearers in the OT - hence the Court of the Gentiles in the Temples.

I had forgotten that option. Then again this seems to be prominent in the NT not so much the OT - no?

Looking into who wrote what in chapter 4 those verses specifically Neb and those which are more likely to be Daniel. Anyone gone through this in detail? Will maybe post this in another forum and see what "internal helps" the Hebrew/Aramaic may offer. Right, off to read John Gill's comments!
 
Not much help in John Gill, he seems to stick to the text without commiting himself either way.
 
After a week of agonising over the text I think I can see Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel in the role of secretary and friend composing the body of text we have as chapter 4 for public release. My main reason is that he needed to demonstrate and show the signs and wonders done for him. Even as I write this I realise Daniel includes the phrase "for him".

Perhaps the most convincing turn of events is when Neb regains his senses, he praises God. He does not rail against Him but praises him. Knowing it was He who took away his reason and gave him the mind of a beast of the field, there is no bitterness. It is reminiscent of Job. Not in every particular but similar.

So in conclusion, if you preach on this text dig deep and show from the text why we might have reason to hope that Neb was saved!
 
He wouldn't need to become a Jew to be converted, as there were Gentile God-fearers in the OT - hence the Court of the Gentiles in the Temples.

I had forgotten that option. Then again this seems to be prominent in the NT not so much the OT - no?

Looking into who wrote what in chapter 4 those verses specifically Neb and those which are more likely to be Daniel. Anyone gone through this in detail? Will maybe post this in another forum and see what "internal helps" the Hebrew/Aramaic may offer. Right, off to read John Gill's comments!

Of course by the time of this incident Neb had destroyed the First Temple, but there was always room for foreigners who believed in the LORD (Yahweh) God, in God's salvific scheme in the Old Testament period, they just didn't have all the spiritual priviledges they would have if they became an Israelite/Jew.

E.g. from Solomon's dedicatory prayer for the Temple
"Likewise, when a foreigner, who is not of your people Israel, comes from a far country for the sake of your great name and your mighty hand and your outstretched arm, when he comes and prays toward this house, hear from heaven your dwelling place and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to you, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know your name and fear you, as do your people Israel, and that they may know that this house that I have built is called by your name. (II Chron 6:32-33, ESV)
 
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