Death Before The Fall

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Saiph

Puritan Board Junior
This side discussion was spawned here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=17351

I did a search and did not find any previous discussions so here goes.

Was there death of any kind before the fall ?
Adam died covenantally of course, and then physically, but I think death must have been there before though.

How else would he know what death meant when God said, the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die ?

What was the tree of life for then if not protection and healing ?

Did adam not cook fish for Eve, or hunt and eat delicious juicy steaks ? (It could hardly be called paradise if not)

Even if they ate plants, didn't the fruit have to die as they ate it ?

Did Adam never step on a bug or swat a fly ?

Did Adam, or the animals urinate, or defacate before the fall or did all food just get absorbed by the body ?

The idea offered by Ruben Zartman is that : (parenthesis mine)

Nature was disordered in the fall; (I agree with that) death is unnatural; (maybe human death) greed is unnatural; disease is unnatural; insanity is unnatural; idiocy is unnatural.

Are there any theological problems with thinking some of those things, including plant and animal death occured before the fall ? The fall subjected nature to vanity, but not death. Man was uniquely cursed with death I think.

Help me out here, I am confused.

[Edited on 3-17-2006 by Saiph]
 
Originally posted by Saiph
This side discussion was spawned here:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=17351

I did a search and did not find any previous discussions so here goes.

Was there death of any kind before the fall ?
Adam died covenantally of course, and then physically, but I think death must have been there before though.

How else would he know what death meant when God said, the day you eat of the fruit you shall surely die ?

What was the tree of life for then if not protection and healing ?

Did adam not cook fish for Eve, or hunt and eat delicious juicy steaks ? (It could hardly be called paradise if not)

Even if they ate plants, didn't the fruit have to die as they ate it ?

Did Adam never step on a bug or swat a fly ?

Did Adam, or the animals urinate, or defacate before the fall or did all food just get absorbed by the body ?

The idea offered by Ruben Zartman is that :

Nature was disordered in the fall; (I agree with that) death is unnatural; (maybe human death) greed is unnatural; disease is unnatural; insanity is unnatural; idiocy is unnatural.

Are there any theological problems with thinking some of those things, including plant and animal death occured before the fall ? The fall subjected nature to vanity, but not death. Man was uniquely cursed with death I think.

Help me out here, I am confused.

Death is a secondary cause of sin.

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Hell was never intended for man.
 
"So you agree, Adam ate animals and rolled up tobacco to smoke right ?? "

Depends if he was a Baptist or a Presbyterian, the scriptures are silent on this. :pilgrim:

When honey dripped into a shallow pool and sat for 6 months did he drink the mead or abstain? We don't know. When the bees chose a new queen did they pull out the unfortunate potential pupae queens and kill them or did that happen after the fall?
 
Originally posted by Saiph
Did Adam, or the animals urinate, or defacate before the fall or did all food just get absorbed by the body ?
:lol:

I'm sorry Mark, you're killing me! Maybe the question is not "Was Adam created with a belly button" but "Was Adam created with bowels, intestines, and a urinary tract?"

God does say that the animals are food for man. I think there is certainly a physical component to understanding what the Lord said when He said Adam would die but it was more than just the physical loss of life in mind.

The death of men is treated much differently than the killing of a creature for sustenance. The death penalty is commanded, after all, because man is created in God's image. This is not true of the animals. Part of their created purpose is to feed man.

I might be missing something but I don't see anything scandalous in the idea that Adam ate meat.
 
Originally posted by SemperFideles
Originally posted by Saiph
Did Adam, or the animals urinate, or defacate before the fall or did all food just get absorbed by the body ?
:lol:

I'm sorry Mark, you're killing me! Maybe the question is not "Was Adam created with a belly button" but "Was Adam created with bowels, intestines, and a urinary tract?"

God does say that the animals are food for man. I think there is certainly a physical component to understanding what the Lord said when He said Adam would die but it was more than just the physical loss of life in mind.

The death of men is treated much differently than the killing of a creature for sustenance. The death penalty is commanded, after all, because man is created in God's image. This is not true of the animals. Part of their created purpose is to feed man.

I might be missing something but I don't see anything scandalous in the idea that Adam ate meat.

I don't know if Adam ate meat??? Thats why I haven't answered Mark yet. I have always held to the idea that man was originally to eat only plants...........

Gen 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I would think that Adam had to offer blood sacrifices etc. But did he actually eat meat?
 
I am confused. Adam before he fell into sin, was given plants and herbs to eat. Then, only after the fall, was he given permission to eat meat, correct?

Gen 1:29
And God said, "œBehold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

This implies fruit and vegetables were food for Adam & Eve doesn't it? Meat was not given for food PRE Fall.

I would think that Adam had to offer blood sacrifices etc. But did he actually eat meat?

You mean AFTER the Fall he had to offer blood sacrifices right?

Gen 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "œYou may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Again, mentioning Adam's food not including meat.

I always assumed that Ch. 3:21: And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. was the first animal(s) killed.



[Edited on 3-17-2006 by Scott Bushey]
 
Originally posted by mangum
I am confused. Adam before he fell into sin, was given plants and herbs to eat. Then, only after the fall, was he given permission to eat meat, correct?

Gen 1:29
And God said, "œBehold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.

This implies fruit and vegetables were food for Adam & Eve doesn't it? Meat was not given for food PRE Fall.

I would think that Adam had to offer blood sacrifices etc. But did he actually eat meat?

You mean AFTER the Fall he had to offer blood sacrifices right?

Gen 2:15-17
The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "œYou may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Again, mentioning Adam's food not including meat.

I always assumed that Ch. 3:21: And the Lord God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them. was the first animal(s) killed.



[Edited on 3-17-2006 by Scott Bushey]

Chris,
I hit the edit button on your post by mistake; sorry bout that.

My mistake; after the fall.......:book2:
 
Unless Gen. 1:29 is parenthetical, like, by the way, you can eat plants also.

Jesus ate fish post resurrection. We are designed to eat meat, and will continue to do so in heaven.
 
Actually I laughed to myself when you mentioned stepping on a bug, as that's something that often crosses my mind. I mean it sounds absurd and sophistic and irrelevant, but if you take the Biblical position seriously, and the "no death for animals" seriously, you have to wonder how Adam and Eve would walk around all day without steppingf on an ant, spider, slug, etc. It doesn't in any way, shape, or form make me doubt anything, far from it. Just a bit of a mind boggler.
 
i'm interested in the topic. i tried to write an essay on the topic at:
http://www.dakotacom.net/~rmwillia/deathfall.html
however i'm not happy with it.

if anyone has links to good online essays on the topic i'd appreciate getting them into my notes. It is an interesting theological topic all though i'm not sure how much of the work on it is really very good theology. It appears to be driven by forces really outside of theology proper, which are using theology as an place to argue from, rather than an issue that arises because of problems within theology itself.

thanks.
 
Originally posted by Saiph
Unless Gen. 1:29 is parenthetical, like, by the way, you can eat plants also.

Jesus ate fish post resurrection. We are designed to eat meat, and will continue to do so in heaven.

I hear you Mark and I don't think I disagree but........

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by Saiph
Unless Gen. 1:29 is parenthetical, like, by the way, you can eat plants also.

Jesus ate fish post resurrection. We are designed to eat meat, and will continue to do so in heaven.

I hear you Mark and I don't think I disagree but........

Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

We will not eat because we are hungry, we will eat because it tastes good. You think Christ ate fish on the beach because he was hungry ?
 
Mark, how would your view of food in the new heavens and the new earth square with the cessation of sexual activity?
 
Originally posted by py3ak
Mark, how would your view of food in the new heavens and the new earth square with the cessation of sexual activity?

You lost me. Can you explain what you mean ? I know Christ taught there is no marriage in heaven but does that imply no gender and no sexuality ?
 
Well, I am assuming that with no marriage there is also no sexual activity (trying to stay away from Islamic ideals of paradise here...).

I think we have masculinity and femininity, of course. I think physical gender and sexual activities are expressions of that underlying reality (and no, I am not an Ebionite).

But if sexual activity ceases (which I would have a hard time seeing how it doesn't given the cessation of marriage and God's creation ordinance) and that is a legitimate pleasure in the right context for this time, then why would we assume that other legitimate pleasures of this time persist? The verse "there is no more sea" is undoubtedly rather cryptic; but it seems to me to indicate a radical difference between that time and this.
 
When Christ said marriage would cease, He did not mention what it would be replaced by. Whatever that is, and whatever sexuality is in a glorified state, are indeed left to be revealed I guess. I have a hard time thinking that the inexplicable joys of heaven will be anything less than the utmost of lawful pleasures we experience here.

[Edited on 3-17-2006 by Saiph]
 
I agree "it" will be better --but what I don't grasp is why it would be via the same instrumentality as it is here....
 
Perhaps it will not. I just know the resurrected Christ appeared in the form of a seemingly anatomically correct male. LOL
 
Yes, you are right; and the fact that there is access to the tree of life again suggests that there is at least a pleasure analogous to food. I have difficulty with assuming too much continuity, though, precisely because of the marriage difference....
That post made me laugh; your "spawned" at the beginning of this thread also caught my eye. These posts are somewhat like breeding horseflies aren't they?
 
I realized after I posted last night that God had said animals were food for man later but not precisely in the creation account. My main point remains that there has never been anything "fallen" about eating meat. Pure vegetarians have issues getting the amount of protein they need in their diet to remain healthy. I think we were designed to eat meat and it was not necessarily consequent to falling.

Animals were not afraid of us before the Fall so they probably walked right up to Adam and let him eat them. :)

Seriously this is pure speculation but is the death of all things that which is in view when God warns of sin or just man's death? Did leaves never fall and decay? Perhaps they fell and just continued to pile up more and more. What happened to all the pits and apple cores? Did they not decay?

It just seems to me that it is the death of man that is significant in the Fall - not the fact that other animals and plants might have had to die in order to be utilized for their created purpose.
 
Apparently, God initially gave plants for all the animals to live on as well:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

H402
×כלה
'ôklâh
ok-law'
Feminine of H401; food: - consume, devour, eat, food, meat.

Is it possible that Noah was the first to eat meat?

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
Gen 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
Gen 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
Gen 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
 
I reckon that man as flesh-eater is almost certainly a post-fall phenomenon. It may even be more properly a post-flood phenomenon, although Abel being a herdsman might militate against that view. But flocks are useful not merely for their meat. My thinking is that since the available biblical data on foodstuff direction are given solely in the form of "allowances" or permissions, (Gen. 1:29, & 9:3), it is unlikely that men were much given to meat-eating, if at all, before the flood.

But I do not think that Adam had to watch his step in the garden. God gave animals and bugs whatever degree of sense they needed to avoid self-destruction, but that doesn't mean they were not capable of being hurt. Adam was a perfect king in the garden, able to look after everything properly. But I don't think that his care essentially immobilized him. Past a reasonable point (I emphasize each word), he remained wisely unconcerned about the survival creatures that were given to him as his servants and property (stewardship). His responsibility was bounded, because God constituted Man a finite vassal.

It is an evolutionary thought to bring Man down to the level of animals, and for certain people, plants too. Biblically, however, Man is qualitatively superior to every other thing in creation, outside the exclusively spiritual realm (i.e. angels). This means that he had rights over and even in animals, as well as everything else. But as his responsibility was limited by God, so also were his rights. Evolutionary thought proves itself schizophrenic here, insofar as the other side of its dialectic proclaims the "survival of the fittest" (that being man), and his unrestricted right of might. Man, says he, is accountable to no one but self. Godless thought is ultimately incoherent.
 
I love this thread! I love a nice juicy steak, and Christ's post-resurrection eating of fish encourages me that I just might get a filet mignon at the marriage supper of the lamb.


And Mark, you are the first Christian person (other than myself) I have ever heard suggest that there may be sexuality in Heaven. I figure we don't have enough information to know either way. But I certainly am right there with you in liking the idea.





While I like the idea of eating meat in paradise, I still wonder if this passage has any bearing on this discussion about food:

"The wolf and the lamb shall graze alike, and the lion shall eat hay like the ox (but the serpent's food shall be dust). None shall hurt or destroy on all my holy mountain, says the LORD. " (Isaiah 65:25)

If this passage is saying that wolves and lions will eat grass in paradise, then wouldn't it follow that they ate grass in Eden before the fall? And would possibly the same hold true for man?

I'm certainly not saying Jesus did anything wrong to eat fish. But perhaps He was just doing what can only be done on this side of paradise. Once death has been destroyed, maybe fish won't die, and Jesus won't eat them anymore.

It's just a thought.
 
I do not see how it follows that simply because animals will no longer be hostile to one another, and no longer be hostile towards man, that it means they will also no longer be for food.

I think Adam ate meat before the fall. Nothing suggests he didn't.

Also, throughout scripture, God enjoys the smell of burning fat and animal flesh. Why would His immutable tastes change at our glorification ?
Some may try to make that theological, by saying the sacrifice for sin pleases Him, but I think that diminishes the idea that while God certainly needs nothing, He still enjoys music, food, story, relationship, history, nature. . . . He created such a diversity in the plant and animal kingdoms that I have no doubt eternity will include the same creativity beyond measure.
 
Was there death before the fall? I am unsure of the answer. I imagine that plants would die when you ate them. So in a sense there was death.

What I find more interesting is the discussion of eating and sex in paradise. I really believe that it is not a matter of whether you can, but whether you will desire to. Personally I believe that once we are exposed to the full glory of God our only desire will be to worship Him.
 
Originally posted by Saiph
I do not see how it follows that simply because animals will no longer be hostile to one another, and no longer be hostile towards man, that it means they will also no longer be for food.

I think Adam ate meat before the fall. Nothing suggests he didn't.

Also, throughout scripture, God enjoys the smell of burning fat and animal flesh. Why would His immutable tastes change at our glorification ?
Some may try to make that theological, by saying the sacrifice for sin pleases Him, but I think that diminishes the idea that while God certainly needs nothing, He still enjoys music, food, story, relationship, history, nature. . . . He created such a diversity in the plant and animal kingdoms that I have no doubt eternity will include the same creativity beyond measure.

mark,
The passages I presented seem to imply otherwise. In fact, even the animals ate plants.
 
mark,
The passages I presented seem to imply otherwise. In fact, even the animals ate plants.

The passages you presented only imply that perhaps there were no poisounous plants to mankind before the fall. Note that we fell by eating a plant, not an animal. Clean and unclean animals came later.

Personally I believe that once we are exposed to the full glory of God our only desire will be to worship Him.

And how do we worship now ? Through music, eating, and sex.
 
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