Degrees of Rewards and Punishment

[Vladimir]

I have created a separate topic for our off-topic conversation about different "amounts" of rewards and punishment in the judgment. The original topic was here: Am I crazy?
To recap:

No doubt those that suffer for being "another color" will be reward in heaven and those who do not advocate that men should do so will loose rewards in heaven (if they are a Christan) or be punished more in hell (if they die in unbelief).

Where did you get this idea of "less rewards" or "more punishment"?

Scripture and the WCF. All our works will be judged. Believers works shall be judged and unbelievers works also. This is where The Lord will judge not only the works but the motive.

My friend, if you get "more or less" from that, you have got some very serious misconceptions about the judgment, the nature of sin, our Lord's justice and, especially, the Cross.

I was just listening to RefNet, and heard Sproul speaking about actual different rewards in Heaven. I am sorry, Earl, I may have been rash in my statement. I will have to research this.

The concept sounds bizarre, though. Even if Sproul says that works do not matter for sanctification, how do they matter in the judgment? Bad sins and real bad sins? Good works and great works? Wages of sin are death: is there "less death" and "more death"? How do you marry this with the doctrine of imputed righteousness?

Here are a couple portions of scripture regarding the judgment seat of Christ.

For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (1 Corinthians 3:11-15 KJV)

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. (Romans 14:10-13 KJV)

I don't know what Sproul means if he says works do not matter for sanctifiation, I would have to hear what the context was. So far as how do works and how they relate with imputation is a great great question that we all need to be reminded of often. I do this by remembering a quote that says "Reprobation like justification are not based on works". This means we are not sent to hell or heaven based on any works we do. We all were born and conceived in Adam because of the imputed sin of Adam (Adam's work and unrighteousness). Of course the Good News is the imputation of Christ's work and righteousness to those he loves which is the best part of imputation that only a few receive, relatively speaking to the whole of humanity.

The works of believers will be judged based on not only if they conform to what God has said we should do, but also the motivation to Who these works were done for. This is why we Christians should do EVERYTHING unto The Lord.

The works of unbelievers will also be judged by the same standard as Christians which are, if they are commanded by God and the motivation they were done for. Of course the motivation for doing good works is totally missing thus ALL the works will be shown as being sinful at the root and thus sinful. The amount of punishment will be doled out by if they did do what God commanded according to His law. Of course if they follow His commandments they will be less sinful because the law does curb sin even in the most rank unbeliever. Even Hitler loved his mother is my favorite example to demonstrate such.

 

[Vladimir]

This means we are not sent to hell or heaven based on any works we do. We all were born and conceived in Adam because of the imputed sin of Adam (Adam's work and unrighteousness). Of course the Good News is the imputation of Christ's work and righteousness to those he loves which is the best part of imputation that only a few receive, relatively speaking to the whole of humanity.

You're talking about the imputation of sins. We are sent to Heaven or hell based on whether we are guilty of sin or not. But imputed righteousness of Christ is a whole other thing.

The works of believers will be judged based on not only if they conform to what God has said we should do, but also the motivation to Who these works were done for. This is why we Christians should do EVERYTHING unto The Lord.

That's what I don't get. If we are judged for our works, then it's hell and no other option. But we are judged for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us. How can it get better? What can we add to that? This is blasphemy.

The amount of punishment will be doled out by if they did do what God commanded according to His law.

I do not recall a single verse about the "amount" of punishment, temperature of the consuming fire, length of their stay in there, etc. In fact, Deuteronomy 28:15 clearly states that if you will not obey the voice of the Lord your God or be careful to do all his commandments and his statutes that I command you today, then all these curses shall come upon you and overtake you (emphasis mine). And then come the curses. There is no "for this much sin you get this, and for this much sin you get that".

London Baptist Confession on this:

Chapter 32.2
The end of God's appointing this day is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy in the eternal salvation of the elect, and also His justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient. Then shall the righteous go into everlasting life and receive that fullness of joy and glory with everlasting reward in the presence of the Lord. But the wicked, who know not God and obey not the Gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast aside into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.

No grades there.

Here are a couple portions of scripture regarding the judgment seat of Christ.

Jason, if what Sproul and Earl are advocating here is true, there will be two stages in the judgment:

1. First, the goats are separated from the sheep, the sheep for glory, the goats for destruction
2. Second, the sheep are judged for their "works" to discern how much glory they get, and the goats are judged for their "works" to discern how much destruction they get

The Scriptures you quoted do not specifically point to this second stage.

By the way, what are the different rewards you imagine there? Closer to Christ or farther from Him? This blows my mind.

 

[Cymro]

Whitefield was of such a charitable and forgiving nature that he said, that Mr Wesley would
have a place nearer the throne than him because of his labours for the Lord. It is widely believed
that at the judgment seat of Christ, the sins of the saints will be made manifest. 2Cor 5 :10 is used
to support this point of view. "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that
everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."
Personally I believe the apostle is speaking of two groups of people, the saints and the sinners, the sheep
and the goats. Those that have died in their sins, or" done bad", will receive due recompense; those that have
"done good," will receive for the fruits of grace that were wrought in them and by them. Their salvation
is through Christ alone, but their works do follow them. In no way can the sins of the righteous be made
manifest at the judgment, for they have been removed as far as the east is from the west, to be remembered
no more. To resurrect them would make the atonement of our Lord of no avail.
But they are "to receive" for those good works. What they will receive is a mystery. But of this we are
sure , there will be this salutation,( of which we are not worthy), " well done thou good and faithful servant."
"As far as east is distant from
the west, so far hath He
From us removed, in His love,
all our iniquity."

 

[Peairtach]

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. (Luke 12:42-48)

 

[earl40]

From the WCF on the imputation of sin.

III. They being the root of all mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed;[6] and the same death in sin, and corrupted nature, conveyed to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation.[7]

On rewards or punishment on the last day.

I. God has appointed a day, wherein He will judge the world, in righteousness, by Jesus Christ,[1] to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father.[2] In which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged,[3] but likewise all persons that have lived upon earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds; and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.[4]

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Of Degrees of Punishment

Matthew 11:21-24 - "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

Luke 12:47-48 - "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Romans 2:4-6 - "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds."


Of Degrees of Reward

Matthew 19:29-30 - "Every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first."

 

[Pergamum]

Rev. Sheffield:

Thanks for the list.

I am looking for sermon links or quotes about the knowing sins of Christians being worse than the sins of those who are ignorant. Sinning against greater light is greater sin it seems. How would I prove this?

 

[C. M. Sheffield]

Sinning against greater light is greater sin it seems. How would I prove this?

It would seem to me the clear implication of Luke 12:47&48. Increased knowledge (i.e. light) implies increased culpability.

Consider also James 4:17, "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." And II Peter 2:21, " For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them."

In both instances, the heinousness of the sin is aggravated by the knowledge of the offending party.

As for resources on this, I would study the Larger and Shorter Catechisms on the degrees of sin (LC 150-151 & SC 83).

"When a man sins after counsels, admonitions, warnings, he cannot plead ignorance. The trumpet of the gospel has been blown in his ears, and sounded a retreat to call him off from his sins, he has been told of his injustice, living in malice, keeping bad company, yet he would venture upon sin. This is to sin against conviction; it aggravates the sin, and is like a weight put into the scale, to make his sin weigh the heavier. If a sea-mark be set up to give warning that there are shelves and rocks in that place, yet if the mariner will sail there, and split his ship, it is presumption; and if he be cast away, who will pity him?" -- Thomas Watson, A Body of Divinity

 

[Pergamum]

Thanks.