Demonic Possession And The Elect

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Saiph

Saiph

Puritan Board Junior
Can a demon control a believer?

The Greek [size=15:37ff30ea15]daimonizomai[/size:37ff30ea15] means "to be demonized," emphasizing control rather than "possession", implying ownership.

To have a demon, might rather emphasizes residency within a person. Demonic control involves a demon residing in a person and exercising direct control over that person with a certain degree of derangement of the mind and/or physical upset of the body. (Matthew 12:43-45)

Applying the concept of "control from within," I believe a believer can be controlled from within by a demon.

We see this first with Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-4. When Peter asked, "Why has Satan filled your heart?" he used the same Greek word that Paul used to speak of being filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). To be "filled" with the Spirit means to be controlled by the Holy Spirit; to be filled with Satan means to be controlled by Satan.

The Bible does teach that a believer can be controlled by a demon from within. This is seen again when Paul said, "Don't give a place to the de_vil" (Eph. 4:27), using a Greek word [size=15:37ff30ea15]topos[/size:37ff30ea15] which can be translated "beachhead." The beachhead refers to a piece of land used militarily as an area of control inside enemy territory. A believer can be controlled through a beachhead within, i.e., a demon.

The distinction between believers and unbelievers is not that a believer cannot be controlled and an unbeliever can be controlled. Rather, the difference is a matter of the degree of the control: An unbeliever can be totally controlled, but a believer can only be partially, and never fully, controlled.




[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
Matthew Henry

[quote:eb24173df0]
1. The origin of his sin: Satan filled his heart; he not only suggested it to him, and put it into his head, but hurried him on with resolution to do it. Whatever is contrary to the good Spirit proceeds from the evil spirit, and those hearts are filled by Satan in which worldliness reigns, and has the ascendant. Some think that Ananias was one of those that had received the Holy Ghost, and was filled with his gifts, but, having provoked the Spirit to withdraw from him, now Satan filled his heart; as, when the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, an evil spirit from God troubled him. Satan is a lying spirit; he was so in the mouth of Ahab's prophets, and so he was in the mouth of Ananias, and by this made it appear that he filled his heart.
[/quote:eb24173df0]
 
John Calvin

[quote:7ab5b50d57]
For there is no man whose heart is not pricked with the pricks of Satan, and all men are also many ways tempted, yea, these temptations pierce into their minds; but where Satan possesseth the heart, he reigneth in the whole man, having, as it were, expelled God. This is a sign of a reprobate, to be so addicted and given over to Satan, that the Spirit of God hath no place. That which followeth afterward concerning lying may have a double sense; either that he did falsely bear a show of the Spirit, or that he lied against the Spirit. And, indeed, it is word for word mentiri Spiritum; but forasmuch as the Greek word [size=15:7ab5b50d57]yeudesqai[/size:7ab5b50d57] is joined with a double accusative case and that doth better agree with the text [context,] I am rather of this mind, that Ananias is reprehended, because he did lie falsely to the Holy Ghost. Which he confirmeth shortly after, when he upbraideth this unto him, that he hath lied unto God, and not unto men. Wherefore we must take great heed, that hypocrisy reign not in us, which hath this wickedness proper to it, to go about to deceive God, and, as it were cornicum oculos configere. To go about to make blind those which are most wise; which cannot be without a disloyal and unseemly mock. Wherefore it is not without cause that Peter saith, that where this cometh to pass the heart is possessed of Satan. For who durst (unless he were void of reason) so blaspheme God? Therefore Peter asketh him as of some wonder, because such blindness is horrible.
[/quote:7ab5b50d57]



[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
[quote:3b9c2023b5]
"The beachhead refers to a piece of land used militarily as an area of control inside enemy territory."
[/quote:3b9c2023b5]

This is incorrect. A beachhead is a toehold on the very limits of enemy territory. It is not "within," but "on."

There is no way to either prove or disprove your conjecture. However, my opinion is quite the contrary. My question to you is, "How can the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit dwell together?"
 
AREA OF CONTROL


beach·head ( P ) n.
A position on an enemy shoreline captured by troops in advance of an invading force.
A first achievement that opens the way for further developments; a foothold


The definition does not contradict what I said.


[quote:156cc4979a]
"How can the Holy Spirit and an evil spirit dwell together?"
[/quote:156cc4979a]

Simul iustus et peccator.

Wheat and Tares inhabit the same field.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
heres my :wr50:

i will never be controlled by a demon. fully or partially.

Satan had to ask permission from God to tempt Job, and that was from the outside.

The reason why i sin is because im traped in this sinful flesh. not because im controlled partially by a demon.
 
[quote:66e2c22dd0]
The reason why i sin is because im traped in this sinful flesh. not because im controlled partially by a demon.

[/quote:66e2c22dd0]

I agree we do not need demonic influence to sin, we are wicked enough.
However, I do believe they tempt and try to influence us from within and without if we grieve the Spirit and invite them in.
 
Robertson's Word Pictures

[quote:974aa39be4]
Act 5:3 -
Filled [size=15:974aa39be4]eplhrwsen[/size:974aa39be4] .The very verb used of the filling by the Holy Spirit (Act_4:31). Satan the adversary is the father of lies (Joh_8:44). He had entered into Judas (Luk_22:3; Joh_13:27) and now he has filled the heart of Ananias with a lie.
[/quote:974aa39be4]

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
What does it mean for Satan to "sift" someone ? ? ?

Luk 22:31,32
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired [to have] you, that he may sift [you] as wheat:
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
 
Mark,

Beachhead (regardless of its precise definition) really does not get at the right force of topos. Where did you see that definition?

Topos is more properly translated simply as "place" or as in this instance (Eph 4:27) as "opportunity, possibility" We would get at this double meaning with the oldish word "room"

BDAG (correcly I think) translates topos here as "do not give to the devil a chance to extert his influence"

Other places to see topos used in this manner are: Heb. 12:17; Acts 25:16.

Here is the TDNT comment:
[quote:b1a405a500]
b. In Place of, Opportunity. This post-class. use develops out of the gen. sense of "place for something or someone"; there is a series of par. to this Gk. development in the Lat. locus.21 The starting-pt. is the idea associated with τόπος that all things and people have their own special places, cf. seat at a meal, Jos.Ant., 12, 210, at school, Diog. L., VII, 22, the senator's seat in the theatre, Epict.Diss., I, 25, 27, cf. Res Gestae Divi Augusti, 7, 2 f.,22 fig. the place in the theatre of the world which one should leave willingly, Epict.Diss., IV, 1, 106. The par. to the Latin is evident in the Gk. expressions εἰς τόπον τινός (in alicuius locum)23 "in place of," "instead of someone," and τόπον τινὸς ἔχω (in alicuius loco esse)24 "to take someone's place or position." As regards the former cf. the rule that the town whose judge is chosen as president should send another judge εἰς τὸν τούτου τόπον, Diod. S., 1, 75, 4, Augustus: Nicolaus Damascenus Vita Caesaris, 4,25 the member entering a society in place of a deceased person, Inscr. Perg., 374B, 21 ff.26 In all these cases we have an expression which is to be taken adverbially "in his place," "in place of." The abs. "position" is not attested for τόπος in Gk.27 On τόπον τινὸς ἔχω cf. φίλου οὐ δύνασαι τόπον ἔχειν, Epict.Diss., II, 4, 5, also Dion. Hal. De Demosthene, 23. Transf. τόπος as "room for something" means "opportunity," "occasion" and corresponds in this to a widespread Lat. use.28 Sometimes local elements are still perceptible in τόπος, e.g., "room, opportunity for flight," Heliodor.Aeth., VI, 13, but mostly the use is quite abstract, e.g., par. ἀφορμή: "Where is there still reason (τόπος) for tears? What occasion (ἀφορμή) is there still for flattery?" Epict.Diss., I, 9, 20; cf. II, 13, 10; III, 24, 56; cf. the oldest instance of this usage, Polyb., 1, 88, 2. Common expressions are τόπον λαμβάνω, "to get the opportunity," Jos.Ant., 16, 190, τόπον δίδωμι, "to give opportunity, occasion," Plut.Adulat., 21 (II, 62d), cf. De cohibenda ira, 14 (II, 462b); PhiloMut. Nom., 270,29 τόπον ἔχω, "to have an opportunity, possibility, ground," Epict.Diss., I, 24, 15; cf. 18, 12; IV, 10, 7; Jos.Ant., 16, 258.30 Of this usage, which arose in Hell. Gk. under Lat. influence (→ n. 30), there are further instances in biblical Gk. → 200, 2 ff.
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Vols. 5-9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin. Edited by Kittel, Gerhard, Geoffrey William Bromiley, and Gerhard Friedrich, Vol. 8, Page 190. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-c1976.[/quote:b1a405a500]

and

[quote:b1a405a500]
The use of τόπος for "the place which someone takes" or "which pertains to him" corresponds to current Greek usage → 190, 3 ff. Luke especially uses the word in this way, e.g., for placing by rank at a meal in 14:9, cf. 14:10, and for a place to stay in the inn, 2:7. The place of the layman in the meeting of the church might also be mentioned in this connection, 1 C. 14:16.136 Whether this usage had already produced the technical sense of "position," "office," in the primitive Christian period is debated. Reference is mostly made to λαβεῖν τὸν τόπον137 τῆς διακονίας ταύτης καὶ ἀποστολῆς in Ac. 1:25. But the circumlocutory way of speaking is of itself enough to show that a technical use of this kind cannot be presupposed here.138 Rather τόπος in Ac. 1:25a bears the same meaning as in the statement which follows in 1:25b: "the right place for someone"; thus the empty place in the apostolic band goes to the one who is elected,139 while Judas has gone to the place where he really belongs, namely, hell.140 In both cases, then, τόπος is the place which is assigned by God and which man must fill either as a commission or as a punishment.
As in general Greek usage (→ 190, 18 ff.), so in the NT the transferred sense of "opportunity" is very closely related to that of "place for something":141 to have no place and hence no "opportunity" for mission (R. 15:28), τόπον ἀπολογίας λαμβάνω, Ac. 25:16 → 190, 24. The contemporaneous influence of later Jewish usage (→ 201, 4 ff.) asserts itself when this opportunity is the divinely presented "possibility" of life and salvation. Here again theological matters are set forth as though they could be localised, → n. 87. What is meant is the basic theological opening up of repentance, obedience etc.; thus it is said of Esau: μετανοίας τόπον οὐχ εὗρεν, Hb. 12:17. What is expressed here is the Jewish and primitive Christian view that man cannot control repentance at will.142 A special divine act is needed as in the sending of such prophetic figures as John the Baptist and Hermas. By this act the τόπος μετανοίας becomes a reality.143 Hb. 8:7 is to be understood similarly: "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." What is sought is the divine act which establishes a new covenant. R. 12:19 demands that the divine144 wrath be allowed to work (δότε τόπον τῇ ὀργῇ),145 (→ II, 444, 9 ff.).146 On the other hand, Eph. 4:27 warns against giving place to the devil.147
But this transferred understanding of τόπος is also found in the NT in mythical style, cosmic and heavenly being referred to as though they were places in a geographical sense.148 The aim of this usage is to depict theological realities which are significant for the community. The link with mythical-cosmic speech is particularly clear in Rev.:149 All the mountains (→ V, 486, 21 ff.) and islands are to be moved out of their places, 6:14b.150 With direct theological implications it is said in 2:5 that the candlestick of the disobedient congregation is to be removed from its place. The cosmic background of this view of place is obvious, since behind the seven candlesticks are seven stars (or planets?) (→ I, 504, 15 ff.)151 which have their own places in the cosmos. In the present context, of course, the reference is to the eschatological possibility of the community. The possibility of existence which God has given the community and the heavenly place of the candlestick are identical. Similarly the mythical reference to place in Rev. 12 is a statement about the theological place of the Church. The woman who symbolises the Church has in the wilderness "the place which God has prepared for her" (12:6) so that she can flee to her place in persecution (12:14). This reference to place is thus a promise that God will sustain the Church's life. Conversely absence of place means destruction, the extinguishing of existence. When the dragon is expelled from heaven (Rev. 12:8) and when heaven and earth flee at God's appearing (20:11), the expression καὶ τόπος οὐχ εὑρέθη αὐτοῖς, which is taken from Da. 2:35 Θ, signifies their hopeless transitoriness, for only he who has his place can really endure. Outside Rev. there is only occasional reference to the heavenly place of the community or the individual, and now more in the interests of edification, Jn. 14:2; cf. 14:3.152 But there is also a place of torment, Lk. 16:28. Thus it is said of Judas that he goes εἰς τὸν τόπον τὸν ἴδιον,153 Ac. 1:25b.154
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Vols. 5-9 edited by Gerhard Friedrich. Vol. 10 compiled by Ronald Pitkin. Edited by Kittel, Gerhard, Geoffrey William Bromiley, and Gerhard Friedrich, Vol. 8, Page 205-207. Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1964-c1976.[/quote:b1a405a500]
 
Let's go with "foothold" or "scabbard" then if you do not like "beachhead".

Strong's:

[quote:96add356f0]
topos
top'-os
Apparently a primary word; a spot (generally in space, but limited by occupancy; whereas G5561 is a larger but particular locality), that is, location (as a position, home, tract, etc.); figuratively condition, opportunity; specifically a scabbard: - coast, licence, place, X plain, quarter, + rock, room, where.
[/quote:96add356f0]








Prove that Annanias was not a Christian.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
Thomas Brooks

Has anyone read "Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices" by Thomas Brooks ? ?

Here is an excerpt and a link to the introduction.


[quote:c6e935b38b]
'We are not ignorant of Satan's devices,' or plots, or machinations,
or stratagems. He is but a titular Christian that hath not personal experience
of Satan's stratagems, his set and composed machinations, his artificially
moulded methods, his plots, darts, depths, whereby he outwitted our first
parents, and fits us a pennyworth still, as he sees reason.
[/quote:c6e935b38b]

READ THE INTRODUCTION HERE

This is a most excellent book on spiritual warfare.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
Thomas Watson

Thomas Watson "The Lord's Prayer", on the 6th petition:

"Lead us not unto temptation. . . "


[quote:02b29213ef]
(4) Being a spirit, he can convey his temptations into our minds, so that we cannot easily discern whether they come from him or from ourselves. One bird may hatch the egg of another, thinking it to be her own: so we often hatch the de_vil's motions, thinking they come from our own hearts. When Peter dissuaded Christ from suffering, he thought it came from the good affection which he bore to his Master, little thinking that Satan had a hand in it. Matt 16: 22. Now, if
the de_vil has such power to instil his temptations, that we hardly know whether they are his or ours, we are in great anger, and had need pray not to be led into temptation. Here, some are desirous to move the question:

How shall we perceive when a motion comes from our own hearts, and when from Sa_tan?

It is hard, as Bernard says, to distinguish [i:02b29213ef]inter morsum serpentis et morbum mentis[/i:02b29213ef] [between the bite of the serpent and the disease of the mind], between those suggestions which come from Satan, and which breed out of our own hearts. But I conceive there is this threefold difference:

First, such motions to evil as come from our own hearts spring up more leisurely, and by degrees. Sin is long concocted in the thoughts, ere consent be given; but usually we may know a motion comes from Sa_tan by its suddenness. Temptation is compared to a dart, because it is shot suddenly. Eph 6: 16. David's numbering the people was a motion which the de_vil injected suddenly.

Secondly, the motions to evil which come from our own hearts are not so terrible. Few are frightened at the sight of their own children; but motions coming from Sa_tan are more ghastly and frightful, as motions to blasphemy and self-murder. Hence it is that temptations are compared to fiery darts, because, as flashes of fire, they startle and affright the soul. Eph 6: 16.

Thirdly, when evil thoughts are thrown into the mind, when we loathe and have reluctance to them; when we strive against them, and flee from them, as Moses did from the serpent, it shows they are not the natural birth of our own heart, but the hand of Joab is in this.

2 Sam 14: 19. Sa_tan has injected these impure motions.

[/quote:02b29213ef]



[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Wintermute]
 
Thomas Watson

Later in the same book:


[quote:726eba6a95]
He observes the natural temper and constitution.

[i:726eba6a95]Omnium discutit mores [/i:726eba6a95][He attacks the character of all]. He does not know the hearts of men, but he may feel their pulse, know their temper, and can apply himself accordingly. As the husbandman knows what seed is proper to sow in such a soil, so Sa_tan, finding out the temper, knows what temptations are proper to sow in such a heart.

The same way the tide of a man's constitution runs, the wind of temptation blows. Sa_tan tempts the ambitious man with a crown, the sanguine man with beauty, the covetous man with a wedge of gold. He provides savoury meat, such as the sinner loves.

[/quote:726eba6a95]




So we see that Watson believed Sa_tan could not read the mind but yet could inject impure thoughts within it, by dwelling with/in and observing the behaviour of the saints.

By "giving place" or providing a "foothold" we open ourselves up to demonic influence.
 
Turmeric:

For greek use {font=symbol}{size=3}miasma{/size}{/font}

Except replace al instances of "{" & "}" with "[" & "]".

Do you understand what I am saying ??
 
[quote:d41c7d50c4][i:d41c7d50c4]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:d41c7d50c4]
[quote:d41c7d50c4][i:d41c7d50c4]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:d41c7d50c4]
95% baby!!

:amen::goodpost: [/quote:d41c7d50c4]


I disagree! I think we agree on 96% not 95%...

...Oh just thought, that ne disagreement moves it back down to 95%...guess you were right afterall:lol: [/quote:d41c7d50c4]

Hey! that makes for some new fun: let's try and track this statistically! Is there anyone out there who is good at Math? Maybe we should start a Paul & Fred agree thread where we can each throw out a position in turn and see if we agree!!

:handshake: :idea2:
 
Who needs math....just ask Paul to note where he disagrees with the WCF and that will be where he disagrees with Fred!!!


:dunce:
 
Making Annanias unregenerate is your only way out.

The kingdom divided point does not work with Romans 7 and the passages that talk about unequally yoked marriages and joining Christ to a prostitute.

I am not asking for agreement on my points, but understanding.

Who is the leading Reformed teacher today on demonology ? ?
 
What difference does it make in practice if a believer can be demon possessed or controlled?

What does this say about the one who tends his sheep?

Have you ever personally known a Christian to be demon possessed or controlled? If so, what have you done or what could you do about it?

Why expend your energies postulating theories that have no real value? If they have value, what are they?
 
1Jo 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that [color=Blue:2a3682443b]is in you[/color:2a3682443b], than he that is in the world.


Mar 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
Mar 3:23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
Mar 3:25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
 
Natural Depravity

Mental Illness

Demonic Influence/Posession



I am tring to determine the boundaries of these and understand where they blur.


Why does Paul tell us to put on armor if there is no supernatural battle besides our sinful flesh ? ?

Scott:

I agree that Sa_tan does not cast out Sa_tan, but he and his minions masquerade as angels of light.
Does this deception follow through to the types of charismatic sign gifts ? ?
Can demons withdraw disease and addiction and physical ailments in a charismatic miracle meeting to deceive the spectators into believing something contrary to Scripture ? ? ?



[Edited on 4-8-2004 by Wintermute]
 
Mark is the original question whether or not a believer can be "posessed" by devils? There are differences between possesion and being tempted or influenced.
 
I think I am now at a point where I do not think the regenerate can be posessed by a demon, but can open themselves up to demonic influence and can be used by a demon. Demonic oppression happens to all the regenerate, so I never had a problem there.
 
Mark,

There is a book by Dr. Lloyd-Jones called "Healing and the Supernatural" where he deals with the diagnostic points for determining demarcations between what is psychological, what is demonic, etc. As a medical doctor and Reformed pastor he speaks with a great deal of wisdom and insight.
 
Demon Possession

I think that Macarthus's work on the subject " How to meet the enemy" is probably one of the best modern treatments of the subject. He does a good job refuting alot of the modern mythology on the subject.
 
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