Denomination Discipline?

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Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I was just wondering how easy it was for a PCA or OPC congregation to pull up roots and join another denomination.
Some are advocating it. Wouldn't that bring on some kind of discipline action or response? A new denomination is seeking those willing to defect.Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church
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I don't know about the OPC, but it is exceedingly easy in the PCA. All it requires is a majority vote of the congregation.
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I was just wondering how easy it was for a PCA or OPC congregation to pull up roots and join another denomination.
Some are advocating it. Wouldn't that bring on some kind of discipline action or response? A new denomination is seeking those willing to defect.Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church
Click to expand...

I don't know about the OPC, but it is exceedingly easy in the PCA. All it requires is a majority vote of the congregation.
Click to expand...

Fred,
Would the local assembly place the members of the church under discipline?
 
In the PCA a congregation can leave the denomination with simply a majority vote of the members. No prior notice need be given to the presbytery. No doubt the past struggles over rights to church property had a big influence on this policy.

Just see what happens when a local Episcopal US congregation tries to escape the "tolerance" brigades for some semblance of orthodoxy and you'll get a hint at what they were reacting to.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I was just wondering how easy it was for a PCA or OPC congregation to pull up roots and join another denomination.
Some are advocating it. Wouldn't that bring on some kind of discipline action or response? A new denomination is seeking those willing to defect.Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church
Click to expand...

I don't know about the OPC, but it is exceedingly easy in the PCA. All it requires is a majority vote of the congregation.
Click to expand...

Fred,
Would the local assembly place the members of the church under discipline?
Click to expand...

No Scott. The most troubling thing about the PCA (in my opinion) is the fact that it is so "voluntary" an association, that a congregation can leave the denomination with their property by simply informing the Presbytery. There is no provision anywhere for stopping anything.

Can you say, "overreaction to the abuses of the mainline church?"
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I was just wondering how easy it was for a PCA or OPC congregation to pull up roots and join another denomination.
Some are advocating it. Wouldn't that bring on some kind of discipline action or response? A new denomination is seeking those willing to defect.Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church
Click to expand...

I don't know about the OPC, but it is exceedingly easy in the PCA. All it requires is a majority vote of the congregation.
Click to expand...

Fred,
Would the local assembly place the members of the church under discipline?
Click to expand...

No Scott. The most troubling thing about the PCA (in my opinion) is the fact that it is so "voluntary" an association, that a congregation can leave the denomination with their property by simply informing the Presbytery. There is no provision anywhere for stopping anything.

Can you say, "overreaction to the abuses of the mainline church?"
Click to expand...

So, in that, I was wrong; it is not schismatic?
Can you give me an example of an official schism?
 
OPC BCO XVI, 7

7. A congregation may withdraw from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church only according to the following procedure:

a. Before calling a congregational meeting for the purpose of taking any action contemplating withdrawal from the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the session shall inform the presbytery, ordinarily at a stated meeting, of its intention to call such a meeting, and shall provide grounds for its intention. The presbytery, through representatives appointed for the purpose, shall seek, within a period not to exceed three weeks after the presbytery meeting, in writing and in person, to dissuade the session from its intention. If the session is not dissuaded, it may issue a written call for the first meeting of the congregation. The call shall contain the session's recommendation, with its written grounds, together with the presbytery's written argument.

b. If the vote of the congregation favors withdrawal, the session shall call for a second meeting to be held not less than three weeks, nor more than one year, thereafter. If the congregation, at the second meeting, reaffirms a previous action to withdraw, it shall be the duty of the presbytery to prepare a roll of members who desire to continue as members of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church and to provide for the oversight of these continuing members.

c. The presbytery shall be given the opportunity, at any congregational meeting at which withdrawal is being considered, to dissuade the congregation from withdrawing.
 
This is from the PCA's Book of Church Order 25-11:

Particular churches need remain in association with any court of this body only so long as they themselves so desire. The relationship is voluntary, based upon mutual love and confidence, and is in no sense to be maintained by the exercise of any force or coercion whatsoever. A particular church may withdraw from any court of this body at any time for reasons which seem to it sufficient.
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This is the PCA's no-fault divorce provision. As people have mentioned, this is probably an overreaction to the mainline denomination's abuses in not letting congregations leave with their property. It indicates a real tendency toward independency, in spite of the formal presbyterian form of government. It raises a number of questions, such as the authenticity of ministerial orders (few really care about that anyway, though), which are a bit confused anyway.

This provision also makes it hard to argue that individual members have a duty to avoid church-hopping. If an entire congregation can leave at its own discretion, why not an individual?

Scott
 
Originally posted by Scott
This is from the PCA's Book of Church Order 25-11:

Particular churches need remain in association with any court of this body only so long as they themselves so desire. The relationship is voluntary, based upon mutual love and confidence, and is in no sense to be maintained by the exercise of any force or coercion whatsoever. A particular church may withdraw from any court of this body at any time for reasons which seem to it sufficient.
Click to expand...

This is the PCA's no-fault divorce provision. As people have mentioned, this is probably an overreaction to the mainline denomination's abuses in not letting congregations leave with their property. It indicates a real tendency toward independency, in spite of the formal presbyterian form of government. It raises a number of questions, such as the authenticity of ministerial orders (few really care about that anyway, though), which are a bit confused anyway.

This provision also makes it hard to argue that individual members have a duty to avoid church-hopping. If an entire congregation can leave at its own discretion, why not an individual?

Scott
Click to expand...

Scott,
I agree. If we are consistant, this would have to effect the lowest denominator, i.e. at the membership level.
 
"I agree. If we are consistant, this would have to effect the lowest denominator, i.e. at the membership level."

Yeah, and you will notice that the church covenant does not provide anything about how to dissolve the covenant. Other parts of the BCO mention that if someone want to switch churches, the session is simply to "note the irregularity" so long as the church being switched to is an evangelical church. If it is an apostate church or cult, or if the person is leaving the church altogether, then the BCO requires certain warnings be made and then, as an act of pastoral discipline, the member undergoes erasure.

Anyway, exit both at a congregational level and an individual level is pretty much a no-fault divorce.

It is interesting to me how BIG a deal it is to either enter or leave the Eastern Orthodox of Roman Catholic church. In our American Protestant churches today, it is easy to drift in and out of particular congregations and denominations.
 
But shouldn't it be voluntary in one sense, and not binding in another sense?

I am also quite opposed to leaving as if church hopping, but that is a matter of lack of commitment to faith, fellowship and membership vows. But it means very little if the church binds people against their will. People are bound to the Church (universal), but that is different than bound to the church (temporal), is it not? Is there a difference? Because we don't want to equate the two.

As to the website, I looked at it, I still don't know anything about them. Who are they? Anybody can say they are the ones holding to the true gospel, but that doesn't mean anything. They could be charismatic, Grapeviners, and say the same thing. Who are they? And is this not schismatic?
 
The making of a new denomination appears to be overreactionary to me. If I am not mistaken the reason for forming such a new association is because of a few splinter groups who adhere to a poor view of justification. Aren't the issues of justification being addressed by the PCA and OPC? I thought they were. Anyways, it just doesn't seem right that a congregation can just decide to leave an authority structure without some due process to make sure it is the correct decision.
Thanks Kevin. I like the OPC way of handling it a little better.

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by puritancovenanter]
 
"Why not let the church be a local independent assembly?"

Because that is error. :)
 
Please first explain what it is you mean by "local independent assemblies". Are you talking about non-denominational churches? Are you referring to those who do not subscribe to a confession or statement of faith? Less accountability? Pray tell before the :deadhorse: begins. :candle:

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Solo Christo]
 
Originally posted by jenson75
Well, no comments about the state of your denominations... I have the highest regard for your founding father of the OPC, in fact, it was his book "Christiainity and Liberalism" that "delivered" me from the church that I was attending. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about the newer ministers.

As for Mr. Scott Roberts and Scott Bushey who claim that those who adopt the "local independent assemblies" view are in error, well....

:banghead::mad::banghead::mad:
Click to expand...

How come I don't get the title "Mr" as Scott Roberts did? I believe I am older!!!

:banana:
 
"Well, no comments about the state of your denominations... I have the highest regard for your founding father of the OPC, in fact, it was his book "Christiainity and Liberalism" that "delivered" me from the church that I was attending. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about the newer ministers."

I know plenty of ministers of independent congregations who I am confident you would find less than acceptable.
 
I think the issue gets more difficult when we attempt to apply the theory. For example, most of us came into the Reformed orbit from other churches that we would not consider heretical, so in a sense, judged against theory, most of us are guilty of our personal schism. We separated from part of the visible church in search of what we believe is a "œpurer" expression of the Faith. When we come to this understanding, should we then put on sack cloth and head to (insert name) Evangelical Church and repent of our sin and rejoin the fellowship? So it seems to me we often end up in theory condemning a practice we ourselves are guilty of too.
 
Originally posted by fredtgreco
Originally posted by puritancovenanter
I was just wondering how easy it was for a PCA or OPC congregation to pull up roots and join another denomination.
Some are advocating it. Wouldn't that bring on some kind of discipline action or response? A new denomination is seeking those willing to defect.Evangelical Reformed Presbyterian Church
Click to expand...

I don't know about the OPC, but it is exceedingly easy in the PCA. All it requires is a majority vote of the congregation.
Click to expand...

Tell me about it. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

And three times as hard to fix. :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
Adam: Without a doubt there are many difficulties and challenges that come from the protestant world being so shattered an divided. And there are few clear answers.

I also want to make clear that I am not saying that independent churches are not "true churches." I think they are, or can be (I am quite confident a church that Jensen attends would be a true church). The test for a true church is a generous application of the Word and Sacrament test.

A quest for the governmental unity envisioned in the Bible, though, does require us to seek an understanding of what God wants and an aspiration to achieve it. Independency does not achieve this unity and is by nature schismatic.

I certainly appreciate Christians in independent churches. I aspire to seeing the independent churches consolidate with broader, appropriate denominations (and then to have those denominations consolidate . . .).

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Scott]
 
"I'm sure you do... but at least their "unacceptable" teachings would not permeate through' our "churches". When an unacceptable minister in Presbyterian circles teaches some nonsensical error that is accepted by the Synod/Council, who can stop them?"

Ideas spread through a number of media. Ministers will hear about ideas in seminaries, radio, books, and the like. I have known many independent churches and their independence is often a vehicle for the promotion of strange ideas and hobby horses of the leaders, as they don't have the accountability that comes with being part of a broader Christian body. Independency does not have structural protections against these. It also tends toward frequent church splits, at least in my experience.

In any event, whatever the merits of independency are, the Lord knew them when he structured the church. Independency is funadamentally out of accord with Acts 15, 16:4, etc.


[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Scott]
 
Originally posted by Scott
Independency is funadamentally out of accord with Acts 15, 16:4, etc.

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Scott]

[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Scott]
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Only if you exegete those passages with roman catholic presuppositions...

:worms:

JH
 
Originally posted by jenson75
Originally posted by Scott
"Well, no comments about the state of your denominations... I have the highest regard for your founding father of the OPC, in fact, it was his book "Christiainity and Liberalism" that "delivered" me from the church that I was attending. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about the newer ministers."

I know plenty of ministers of independent congregations who I am confident you would find less than acceptable.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you do... but at least their "unacceptable" teachings would not permeate through' our "churches". When an unacceptable minister in Presbyterian circles teaches some nonsensical error that is accepted by the Synod/Council, who can stop them?

:mad::worms:
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Right....

And this form of government saved the Congregationalists in America from error.


Ohh, that's right, they are the only officially universal and unitarian group of churches, along with their active support of everything homosexual.

Give me a break.
 
Originally posted by Scott
"I'm sure you do... but at least their "unacceptable" teachings would not permeate through' our "churches". When an unacceptable minister in Presbyterian circles teaches some nonsensical error that is accepted by the Synod/Council, who can stop them?"

Ideas spread through a number of media. Ministers will hear about ideas in seminaries, radio, books, and the like. I have known many independent churches and their independence is often a vehicle for the promotion of strange ideas and hobby horses of the leaders, as they don't have the accountability that comes with being part of a broader Christian body. Independency does not have structural protections against these. It also tends toward frequent church splits, at least in my experience.


Your "experience" no matter how ever vast it may be, does not convince me. Independent ministers who spread error are at the end of the day causing problems within their own church and other churches are not at liberty to adopt their "ideas". On the other hand, if a PCA or OPC minister spreads unscriptural teachings and practices, you will still need to be identified with him and even share a platform with him. I do not know how you can do so happily...





In any event, whatever the merits of independency are, the Lord knew them when he structured the church. Independency is funadamentally out of accord with Acts 15, 16:4, etc.



That is your opinion. Next you will be saying our poor Apostle Paul was dragging his feet to the Council of Jerusalem and the Council was debating who was right or wrong. Is that what Presbyterian Synods do?

:mad:



[Edited on 5-26-2005 by Scott]
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Jenson....

No one is keeping you from our fellowships. If you want to see what presbyterians do, why don't you look into it, honestly?

Your country would not be what it is today without presbyterians, as short lived as they were.

As you well know, the church is Christ's bride. How that should equal independent, disconnected local groups is beyond me.

In Christ,

KC
 
Jenson....

Originally posted by jenson75
I know what Presbyterians do, but only from the WCF (and a few BPC friends I know). However, what they REALLY do, I am quite surprised.

You have not answered my question... And what is this "Your country would not be what it is today without presbyterians, as short lived as they were."? Firstly, I am only working in UK, I am NOT British!

And why can the churches not be local assemblies? Is it beyond you because of your loyalty to the Presbyterian tradition?

:worms::worms::worms:
Click to expand...

Pardon my ignorance and my wrongful assumption.

Perhaps you could clue me in on exactly how presbyterians are not doing what they are supposed to be doing. That would go a long way towards my defense.

The church is the local assembly. But the church is also one, holy, catholic, apostolic. Just as we cannot do very well to explain how God is three and yet one, we also cannot describe how every tribe, tongue, nation, and people are all one bride. But however poorly we do describe the church, this much is certain: The ground at the foot of the cross is level. Christ desired that we be one. The Scriptures also teach us how we are to be to one another. But in all of these teachings, DISCONNECTEDNESS is not part of them. The Bible does not know of autonomy and individualism.

Unless I'm missing something, Christ desired us to be of one mind, not many individual ones. And despite what you may think, presbyterianism gets alot closer to that than independency.

In Christ,

KC
 
"Only if you exegete those passages with roman catholic presuppositions..."

No, there is nothing Roman Catholic about using Acts 15 as a model for reconciling controversies of faith. Acts 15 teaches that when a dispute affects many local congregations, the proper remedy is to call a council, debate the issue, and have the council render a binding resolution that each congregation is obligated to obey (see Acts 16:4). Acts 15 does not make sense in the context of independency.

BTW, please know that our presbyterian churches welcome visiting members of evangelical independent churches to communion. We don't see independency as heresy.

I want to emphasize again that I am not hostile to evangelical independent churches and I appreciate and respect the good work that they do. I have had significant experience in them and know that they have many godly people. I just aspire to see these good congregations consolidate with the larger body of Christ, with the kind of unity it seems to me that the Bible envisions.

[Edited on 5-27-2005 by Scott]
 
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