Dialogical Principle of Worship

[Coram Deo]

I know that D.G. Hart covers alittle with the Dialogical Principle of Worship in his book "With Reverance and Awe" but is there a whole book just dealing with the Dialogical Principle of Worship?

I was just reading Scott Clark on his blog that the laities responses and prayers should be only from the word of God.... Unlike the preachers since the laity can not exposit the Word... I was unware of this reasoning with the Dialogical Principle....

So is there a exhaustive book just dealing with the Dialogical Principle of Worship....

 

[dannyhyde]

There is a book by VanDooren, The Beauty of Reformed Liturgy, that deals with this in an introductory type of way.

As for Dr. Clark's comments, what he said does not follow from the dialogical principle. If it were, the Reformed liturgies from the Continent would not have included the singing/recitation of the Apostles' Creed, as an example. The Creed has been a part of the eucharistic liturgy of the Dutch Reformed Churches since the beginning in her officially adopted and required-to-be-used Form for the Celebration of the Lord's Supper.

 

[Coram Deo]

Thanks for the book title, I will have to get it...

Now Dr. Clark did say it stems from the Dialogical Principle... Here is his quote....

"Over the years I have come to the conviction that God's people are to respond to his Word only with his Word. Thus, I don't oppose responsive readings per se but I do oppose uninspired responsive readings or the congregational use of uninspired liturgical material. My explanation for this stems from the nature of the RPW and from the dialogical principle of Reformed worship. God speaks and the people respond. How are we to respond? Evidently, judging by Scripture and the practice of the earliest post-apostolic Christians, with God's own Word. I discuss this at some length in the forthcoming volume, Recovering the Reformed Confession due out September, 2008.

Ministers, who are leading services, may use uninspired materials to exposit Scripture just as they give uninspired sermons, but the whole congregation does not have the office of minister (or teaching elder) and is not called to exposit Scripture in the stated service."

There is a book by VanDooren, The Beauty of Reformed Liturgy, that deals with this in an introductory type of way.

As for Dr. Clark's comments, what he said does not follow from the dialogical principle. If it were, the Reformed liturgies from the Continent would not have included the singing/recitation of the Apostles' Creed, as an example. The Creed has been a part of the eucharistic liturgy of the Dutch Reformed Churches since the beginning in her officially adopted and required-to-be-used Form for the Celebration of the Lord's Supper.

 

[Coram Deo]

About VanDooren... I was just reading an article by him on The Beauty of Reformed Liturgy that I just found on the internet..... Does he allow for Hymns and Musical Instruments? Any books on the Dialogical Principle that would be more Reformed Orthodoxed that speaks only of Psalms and No Instrumentation?

I hate having a GREAT book on a topic and then when going to recommend it to a friend I have to tell them, oh you need to disregard these parts or give them a warning about some of it which tends to nullify the affects of the book. They tend to think if this part is wrong then maybe the whole book is wrong or they might say if this theologian said it is ok to have this in worship then it must be ok.... I have had friends that have done both before after I recommend them a book even though it was not a perfect book.

Any other good books on the Dialogical Principle of Worship?

There is a book by VanDooren, The Beauty of Reformed Liturgy, that deals with this in an introductory type of way.

 

[dannyhyde]

TNow Dr. Clark did say it stems from the Dialogical Principle...

My point was not that he did not say this, but that his conclusion does not follow. The dialogical principle is the idea that in worship, as in covenants, God speaks and his people respond. My offering up of the example of the Creed in historic Dutch Reformed liturgy was to show that whatever this principle means, it does not mean what he says it means.

Further, of course all agree it is the minister's calling to exposit Scripture, but then to say because laity are not called to that, therefore they cannot say or sing uninspired words is sleight of hand. Whoever said singing "A Mighty Fortress" or reciting the Creed was expositing Scripture?

Even further, what of the ancient churches' practice of saying/singing the Gloria Patri at the end of their saying/singing the Psalms? The Gloria Patri comes from the second century (AD 100–199), which is certainly the post-apostolic period he refers to.

God speaks and his people respond, that's the principle. Restricting this to inspired words only seems an application to me. Is it the case that as New Covenant Christians we must sing about dashing our enemies' children against rocks and that we are not authorized to do what our Lord said to do, namely, pray for our enemies?

 

[Guido's Brother]

About VanDooren... I was just reading an article by him on The Beauty of Reformed Liturgy that I just found on the internet..... Does he allow for Hymns and Musical Instruments? Any books on the Dialogical Principle that would be more Reformed Orthodoxed that speaks only of Psalms and No Instrumentation?

VanDooren was a Canadian Reformed author and we do sing hymns and use musical instruments, and he did fall in line with that position personally. However, he doesn't push the singing of hymns or the use of instruments in this book. I think you could recommend it with a clear conscience -- unless you have a problem with Catechism Preaching (which he spends three chapters promoting)!

 

[MW]

Is it the case that as New Covenant Christians we must sing about dashing our enemies' children against rocks and that we are not authorized to do what our Lord said to do, namely, pray for our enemies?

Psalm 35:

11 False witnesses rose; to my charge
things I not knew they laid.
12 They, to the spoiling of my soul,
me ill for good repaid.

13 But as for me, when they were sick,
in sackcloth sad I mourned:
My humbled soul did fast, my pray'r
into my bosom turned.

14 Myself I did behave as he
had been my friend or brother;
I heavily bowed down, as one
that mourneth for his mother.

 

[Reformed Covenanter]

Is it the case that as New Covenant Christians we must sing about dashing our enemies' children against rocks and that we are not authorized to do what our Lord said to do, namely, pray for our enemies?

These two things are not contradictory; Ps. 137 sings of the Lord's judgment upon wicked nations (in this context the Babylonians) that does not mean that we cannot pray for our personal enemies while singing this. Are you saying that the Holy Spirit inspired the psalmist to express a desire which is now sinful?

Furthermore, as the Psalms were completed near the end of the old covenant era, they are perhaps more appropriate for new covenant saints than old covenant ones.