Did Animals Die Before the Fall?

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

Obviously plant life was subject to death since it was to serve as food for man and beast (Gen. 1:29-30). Moreover, it’s likely that stepping on plants, pruning branches, and falling trees in order to make structures would have resulted in plant death. But what about insects? Is it conceivable that Adam could have stepped on and crushed an ant before the fall? Did some birds eat insects? Did fish eat fish? Or did fish only eat algae. Did carnivorous animals feed on other animals? Or were all the created animals referred to in Genesis 1 originally herbivores? Were animals immune to death before the Fall and therefore should we view all animal death as a consequence of human sin?

How would you answer these questions? What are the reasons for your answer(s)?

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

I dunno, I question whether animals were ever intended to be eternal like man.
I genuinely don't know, scripture is silent so we can only speculate and ponder, on a similar note do you think pets will be reunited with owners at the resurrection?

 

[etexas]

TIME FOR MY EYE Check-up!!!!!! I looked at the title and thought it said......."Do animals die before they fall"......anyone say lasic touchup.....SORRY back to the OP. (BLUSH).

 

[No Longer A Libertine]

TIME FOR MY EYE Check-up!!!!!! I looked at the title and thought it said......."Do animals die before they fall"......anyone say lasic touchup.....SORRY back to the OP. (BLUSH).

Sometimes they do, death can cause them to fall at times.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

I would say yes. There is no evidence that God changed some animals to obligate carnivores (such as lions) after the Fall. Doing so would entail completely re-ordering creation in such a way that the Bible doesn't support. Plus, even subscribing to a literal 24 hr/day week doesn't solve the problem of animals with very short life spans, which would have died prior to the Fall.

Most people point to Romans 5, saying it implies there was no death before sin entered the world. But in context, the death in Romans 5 is clearly human death, both physical and spiritual. There is no reason, based on Romans 5, to believe animals did not die before the Fall.

So that's my short answer, but I'm by no means 100% certain and am very much open to correction...

 

[OPC'n]

Who says that Adam and Eve lived in the garden over a day or two?

 

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

Who says that Adam and Eve lived in the garden over a day or two?

Hi, Sarah. I'm probably slow, but your question seems rhetorical, and I'm wondering how it might relate to the original question about animal death.

 

[OPC'n]

Who says that Adam and Eve lived in the garden over a day or two?

Hi, Sarah. I'm probably slow, but your question seems rhetorical, and I'm wondering how it might relate to the original question about animal death.

I doubt you're slow. However, if Adam and Eve only stayed one day in the garden, would eight days really be long enough to discover if animals died? It's just a question not a rhetorical question.

 

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

I would say yes. There is no evidence that God changed some animals to obligate carnivores (such as lions) after the Fall. Doing so would entail completely re-ordering creation in such a way that the Bible doesn't support. Plus, even subscribing to a literal 24 hr/day week doesn't solve the problem of animals with very short life spans, which would have died prior to the Fall.

Most people point to Romans 5, saying it implies there was no death before sin entered the world. But in context, the death in Romans 5 is clearly human death, both physical and spiritual. There is no reason, based on Romans 5, to believe animals did not die before the Fall.

So that's my short answer, but I'm by no means 100% certain and am very much open to correction...

Mason,

I think you've raised an important problem with the position that denies the existence of carnivores before sin. Also, like you, I'm not sure "death" in Romans 5 is inclusive of all animal life. I'd like to develop these thoughts further. First, however, I wonder how you'd answer the following arguments that place animal death (at least higher forms of animal life) after the Fall:

1) The Bible seems to draw a connection between animal death and human sin (Gen. 6:17; 7:21-23; Deut. 28:18; Hos. 4:3; Zeph. 1:2-3).
2) Romans 8:20-22 suggests that creation as a whole, not just humanity, suffered as a result of Adam's Fall.
3) Certain prophetic passages that speak of carnivores eating vegetable food and peacefully cohabiting with herbivores are alleged by some to point not only forward to the New Earth but backward to the original state of affairs before sin (Isa. 11:6-9; cf. 65:25).

-----Added 2/21/2009 at 08:04:00 EST-----

Who says that Adam and Eve lived in the garden over a day or two?

Hi, Sarah. I'm probably slow, but your question seems rhetorical, and I'm wondering how it might relate to the original question about animal death.

I doubt you're slow. However, if Adam and Eve only stayed one day in the garden, would eight days really be long enough to discover if animals died? It's just a question not a rhetorical question.

Sarah,

Well, I suppose that if Adam and Eve only lived a day or two in the Garden, its possible they never witnessed animal death until after they sinned (Gen. 3:21). Perhaps the original question should be reworded: did God create predatory animals? Or, are predatory instincts and the anatomical structures that predatory animals now possess (as well as the protective anatomical structures of animals that are the prey) a result of the Fall?

BTW, I noticed two guys drinking beer next to the link to OPC Sermons. That sounds like a great combination.

 

[Wannabee]

I've always considered that animals did not die before the fall. But I've wondered about insects as the OP asks. It does seem that death entered because of the fall in light of the fact that Adam is clearly God's earthly administrator. He is given authority over all creatures. And his fall results in the immediate death of at least one. I've perceived this as a traumatic occurrence in the life of Adam and Eve, as they saw that which Adam named and was to care for destroyed because of their sin. But I can't say that I'd die on that hill.

 

[OPC'n]

It is a good combination! Good beer and great sermons....can't beat it!

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

If Human life was shortened due to the fall and the post-flood environment why would animals and insects not also receive the same punishment/restriction?

 

[Nate]

 

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

If Human life was shortened due to the fall and the post-flood environment why would animals and insects not also receive the same punishment/restriction?

This is certainly possible. And the flood provides a clear example of animal death linked to human sin. But I think Mason raised a point worth considering above. If carnivores did not come into existence till after the Fall, then the changes in their anatomical structures would have been significant and would have occurred over a relatively brief period of time since we have fossils of carnivores in what is presumably flood strata. In other words, did a once algae eating fish (before the Fall) quickly develop into a White Shark after the Fall? Moreover, did herbivores suddenly develop protective structures like horns, shells, stink glands, etc.

-----Added 2/21/2009 at 08:31:21 EST-----

It is a good combination! Good beer and great sermons....can't beat it!

I agree. Have you every tried a Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout? Great stuff.

 

[Marrow Man]

It is a good combination! Good beer and great sermons....can't beat it!

I agree. Have you every tried a Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout? Great stuff.

This is but I must say that sounds quite interesting! Smith, not Adams? Can you get it everywhere?

 

[Craig]

Romans 8:19-20
19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

Seems the created order was corrupted by man's Fall...death of all life that has breath is a curse, and is evil. Genesis bares this out as well:

Genesis 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways.

God saw that other than the moral corruption man demonstrated in all his thoughts, inclinations, and actions, that there was violence throughout the earth...clearly God does not favor a created order of "kill or be killed" that we see in the wild. It seems most biblical to assume that animals were herbavores and did not die or kill each other before the Fall.

Follow this up with the future God promises...a restoration to an earth without violence:

Isaiah 11:1-9
1 A shoot will come up from the stump of Jesse;
from his roots a Branch will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him—
the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding,
the Spirit of counsel and of power,
the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD -

3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes,
or decide by what he hears with his ears;

4 but with righteousness he will judge the needy,
with justice he will give decisions for the poor of the earth.
He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth;
with the breath of his lips he will slay the wicked.

5 Righteousness will be his belt
and faithfulness the sash around his waist.

6 The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling [a] together;
and a little child will lead them.

7 The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.

8 The infant will play near the hole of the cobra,
and the young child put his hand into the viper's nest.

9 They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD
as the waters cover the sea.

 

[Dearly Bought]

If Human life was shortened due to the fall and the post-flood environment why would animals and insects not also receive the same punishment/restriction?

This is certainly possible. And the flood provides a clear example of animal death linked to human sin. But I think Mason raised a point worth considering above. If carnivores did not come into existence till after the Fall, then the changes in their anatomical structures would have been significant and would have occurred over a relatively brief period of time since we have fossils of carnivores in what is presumably flood strata. In other words, did a once algae eating fish (before the Fall) quickly develop into a White Shark after the Fall? Moreover, did herbivores suddenly develop protective structures like horns, shells, stink glands, etc.

The language of the curse, particularly Genesis 3:17, appears to show that miraculous changes were wrought in nature on account of the Fall. I don't think we need to think in terms of micro-evolutionary processes here.

 

[TimV]

I don't think an accidental death by squishing would come into it, since the same thing could have happened to Adam after falling out of a tree. So if no form of death even accidental could affect Adam and Eve it stands to reason that no form of death could affect other live in God's perfect garden.

We also have to leave the rate of physiological change out of the equation as well, as we're not dealing with modern physical laws in the garden.

 

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

It is a good combination! Good beer and great sermons....can't beat it!

I agree. Have you every tried a Samuel Smith Oatmeal Stout? Great stuff.

This is but I must say that sounds quite interesting! Smith, not Adams? Can you get it everywhere?

You're correct. Samuel Smith--made in England. Jim West gives it 5 stars in his book Drinking with Luther and Calvin. You probably need to find a liquor store that sells lots of imported beers.

 

[Hippo]

I do not think that this question has much relevance outside of a young / old earth debate, and in that debate there are much more weighty questions to consider.

 

[Marrow Man]

You're correct. Samuel Smith--made in England. Jim West gives it 5 stars in his book Drinking with Luther and Calvin. You probably need to find a liquor store that sells lots of imported beers.

Thanks for the info. I just noticed you live in Easley! The missus and I lived in Powdersville for 3 years while I was attending Erskine Seminary! You should look up Mark Wright at Unity ARP Church. He's on the PB too.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Mason,

I think you've raised an important problem with the position that denies the existence of carnivores before sin. Also, like you, I'm not sure "death" in Romans 5 is inclusive of all animal life. I'd like to develop these thoughts further. First, however, I wonder how you'd answer the following arguments that place animal death (at least higher forms of animal life) after the Fall:

1) The Bible seems to draw a connection between animal death and human sin (Gen. 6:17; 7:21-23; Deut. 28:18; Hos. 4:3; Zeph. 1:2-3).
2) Romans 8:20-22 suggests that creation as a whole, not just humanity, suffered as a result of Adam's Fall.
3) Certain prophetic passages that speak of carnivores eating vegetable food and peacefully cohabiting with herbivores are alleged by some to point not only forward to the New Earth but backward to the original state of affairs before sin (Isa. 11:6-9; cf. 65:25).

I think those are all fair points. My response is that just because animals are condemned with humans in certain specific circumstances (eg, the Flood), there is no reason to believe animals didn't die before the Fall. In other words, both the carnivore and herbivore alike are condemned in the passages of #1 - can't the same be true of the Fall?

I would agree that all of creation suffered the consequences of the Fall along with humanity. I don't think animals got infections or had genetic defects prior to the Fall. But that does not mean that death in the natural food chain could not have occurred. I don't see that carnivores arose as a result of the Fall - I just don't see the biblical evidence for it. However, I do believe the Fall corrupted nature in many ways, including genetic abnormalities, development of viruses, etc. It is unnatural (and a result of the Fall, in my opinion) for a gazelle to have a viral infection and die. But it is perfectly within the natural order of creation for a lion to hunt and kill a gazelle. One form of death is natural within created order, the other is unnatural.

My point is that death within the animal kingdom is not unnatural so long as it occurs within the natural order of creation. Death outside this natural order is a result of the Fall. Again, I won't fall on my sword for this belief. I just don't see any Scripture to strongly support the idea that spiders didn't spin their webs or cobras didn't have fangs before the Fall.

-----Added 2/21/2009 at 09:33:25 EST-----

I do not think that this question has much relevance outside of a young / old earth debate, and in that debate there are much more weighty questions to consider.

I don't think this is necessarily true. The question has more to do with the natural order of creation - namely, are carnivores a natural part of God's perfect creation. I would contend that they are...

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

How is a lion killing and eating a gazelle and a lion eating and killing a human different for the lion?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

How is a lion killing and eating a gazelle and a lion eating and killing a human different for the lion?

Nothing, other than God Providentially preventing the lion from eating the humans, just like He did with Daniel in the lions' den.

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Though Daniel was after the Fall was he not? The point being how is the lion eating the gazelle a part of the "natural order" and the lion eating the human not a part of the "natural order" when for the lion both gazelles and humans are just muscular tissue for digestion?

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

Though Daniel was after the Fall was he not? The point being how is the lion eating the gazelle a part of the "natural order" and the lion eating the human not a part of the "natural order" when for the lion both gazelles and humans are just muscular tissue for digestion?

I see your point, but obviously it was not part of God's will that humans should die before the Fall. God brought the animals to Adam to be named, after all - the animals obviously knew not to touch the humans somehow. Either that, or God providentially kept the humans alive.

 

[TimV]

Isa 11:5 Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins.
Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.
Isa 11:7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
Isa 11:8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

There are probably many meanings in this passage, but if you start spiritualizing what happens when we are lead back into the garden then you can spiritualize what happened before our father Adam got kicked out.

So I would say it would be fair to work backwards, and if the above passage is even at a secondary level talking about the future, then it also helps interpret the past.

 

[Craig]

 

[Dr. Bob Gonzales]

I do not think that this question has much relevance outside of a young / old earth debate, and in that debate there are much more weighty questions to consider.

Well, I do think there's often a relationship. Those holding to an old earth tend to believe God created both carnivores and herbivores. Many who hold to a young earth believe that God either immediately and miraculously effected changes in the anatomic structures of animals making some of them predators and others prey. However, I presently hold to a young earth (though I concede there are some challenges to that view), yet I'm more open to the idea of carnivores and herbivores being part of God's original creation.

 

[ColdSilverMoon]

There are several assumptions (and wrong ones, I'd submit) underlying things here.

That before the fall:

1. Things are like they are now, after the fall.
2. That plant "death" is really "death" proper.

Instead of believing Romans 5 at face value, and that it was sin that *actually* brought death into the world, we import modern things to a pre-Fallen world and draw conclusions from that. There have been multiple threads discussed about this very subject.

For the record, I think both of those assumptions are wrong as well. Certainly the pre-Fall world was different from the current world, and yes, plants don't die in the same sense animals die.

However, I see nothing in Romans 5 that extends to the animal kingdom. Romans 5 is clearly talking about human death, both physical and spiritual. If one believes physical animal death came as a result of the Fall, then to be consistent one must also believe spiritual animal death came as a result of the Fall. And that can't really be the case can it?