Did Jesus remember his own birth?
- Thread starter Pergamum
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Of course I count incontinence and crying as flaws as well, but most babies pee themselves and I would assume that Mary had to change diapers too. I would assume that Jesus cried as a baby. (can I even try to picture this or am I violating the 2nd Cmmdnment too now?)
How do you factor in baby stuff with the perfection of the man Christ Jesus?
How do you factor in baby stuff with the perfection of the man Christ Jesus?
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Crying isn't sin or imperfection...it's communication. Wet His nappies?...it's a normal bodily function and he wasn't grown enough to do it himself. Pass gas...well, He ate, didn't he? I'm certain he experienced much the same as we experienced. He simply didn't sin...these things are not sinning however.
Memory? I have no idea. I would not doubt it though, regardless of perfection or imperfection. My own husband is able to describe the room he was born into (his mother about had a heart attack when he described it) and remembers (obviously) more things further back than most. I can remember as far back as 2yrs of age (not everything, but more than a few memories).
Memory? I have no idea. I would not doubt it though, regardless of perfection or imperfection. My own husband is able to describe the room he was born into (his mother about had a heart attack when he described it) and remembers (obviously) more things further back than most. I can remember as far back as 2yrs of age (not everything, but more than a few memories).
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
Pergy,
I know this is a serious question. But, I can't stop laughing over it. The psuedopigrpha may shed some light on this issue. We know from them that he raised the dead, animated clay birds and other miraculous things as a child. So, surely he remembered his birth.
I, too, am one of those that can remember some things from a very young age. My wife and parents think it is freaky. I guess it is. But, I can't remember EVERYTHING.
I know this is a serious question. But, I can't stop laughing over it. The psuedopigrpha may shed some light on this issue. We know from them that he raised the dead, animated clay birds and other miraculous things as a child. So, surely he remembered his birth.
I, too, am one of those that can remember some things from a very young age. My wife and parents think it is freaky. I guess it is. But, I can't remember EVERYTHING.
My first assumption would be that "Inability to remember is a flaw" is false, it is rather just a human limitation. Although it is interesting to wonder about whether it is a flaw or not, something I had never considered.
Since we don't know all that much about how human minds develop at that stage (from the inside), I can only speak in ignorance. But my guess would be: his brain contains that information in whatever way our brains contain that information. If we humans share a common infirmity that causes us to forget things like that, then he must have as well. The confession states that he shared, "all the essential properties and common infirmities" of humans. I'm guessing that would also mean that if there were ever times during growing up that he was hit hard in the head, his brain may have had trouble recollecting the minutes leading up to the even like our brains do.
But what do I know, I'm just making things up. Interesting question.
Since we don't know all that much about how human minds develop at that stage (from the inside), I can only speak in ignorance. But my guess would be: his brain contains that information in whatever way our brains contain that information. If we humans share a common infirmity that causes us to forget things like that, then he must have as well. The confession states that he shared, "all the essential properties and common infirmities" of humans. I'm guessing that would also mean that if there were ever times during growing up that he was hit hard in the head, his brain may have had trouble recollecting the minutes leading up to the even like our brains do.
But what do I know, I'm just making things up. Interesting question.
Farts are made from putrefaction, i.e. the body is inefficient at utilizing all the food energy you produce. Therefore, logically a perfect man would utilize his calories perfectly and no putrefaction or gas would occur. Farting is usually seen as a flaw and a gastro-intestinal deficiency.
Serious guys.
Serious guys.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Sorry, Pergy, I guess I was thinking memory being a normal development like everything else. I've heard people claim that he didn't do this or that (many anabaptists deny his humanity...it was just a "visual cloak"). My point was, as Ruben stated so much better, he went through normal developments...none of which is a sin. So I was trying to be serious.
LawrenceU
Puritan Board Doctor
I think Reuben nailed it. Being God and Man, Jesus had all the perfection of God and since he had a human body of the type that we have surely it had the shortcomings of physical nature that we posses. Scars are imperfectly grown skin from an injury. Would his skin not have carried scars from scraped knees, smashed thumbs, and chisel cuts?
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Should we avoid vain speculation? What is the purpose of such speculation?
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
It would seem that way...but it would depend upon the kinds of people you come in contact with. If you only converse with reformed people and books, yes, it would seem vain. If you come into contact with people that bring up these exact kinds of questions and speculations, one should have an answer for them, yes?
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Is there an answer according to Scripture, or even with reason according to Scripture?
N. Eshelman
Puritan Board Senior
Well, I guess that I will just keep my overly-pious thoughts to myself... for now. 
Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
I do not think it is vain speculation, it is a good question that is raised because of the relationship between Christ's two natures. For what it's worth, all of the better theological writings that I have read come down on the side of Christ's divine knowledge being voluntarily limited by his humanity. There are good evidences for this in Scripture, and Ruben brought up one of them.
A more specific question from another angle: Even if Jesus developed in memory, surely to forget something that was once remembered is a defect, is it not?
So, Jesus might not have remembered some things that he did not really have cognitive awareness of (as a little baby), because he was developmentally limited, but would Jesus forget a cousin's birthday?
So, Jesus might not have remembered some things that he did not really have cognitive awareness of (as a little baby), because he was developmentally limited, but would Jesus forget a cousin's birthday?
Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
Now you are getting into vain speculation
Scripture never represents Christ in this manner, but it does represent him as having the "defects" accompanying our fallen humanity. He grew weary, he had moments of hesitation (think Gethsemane), he undoubtedly showed the affects of aging that accompany any young man entering his early thirties. So, even if he had ever experienced the "defect" of memory loss it would not be that he fell into sin at that point, but that he underwent the full range of experiences common to our human existence (apart from succumbing to temptation, of course).
Scripture never represents Christ in this manner, but it does represent him as having the "defects" accompanying our fallen humanity. He grew weary, he had moments of hesitation (think Gethsemane), he undoubtedly showed the affects of aging that accompany any young man entering his early thirties. So, even if he had ever experienced the "defect" of memory loss it would not be that he fell into sin at that point, but that he underwent the full range of experiences common to our human existence (apart from succumbing to temptation, of course).
JohnGill
Puritan Board Senior
In order to begin your argument you must first establish from scripture that forgetting something once remembered is a sin.
Here's a link that deal's with the issue: 2. Of Christ's State of Humiliation.
It would appear that forgetting something once remembered would be flaw. But this is precisley why I am exploring all of this.
Also, can we speak of Jesus as really "aging" because aging is the slow defeat of us under the power of death. It would appear that Jesus was offered up as the perfect sacrficie and therefore sometimes between the age of 30-33 is the ideal age of man and the utmost of his physical maturity (before the slow creaking decline towards the pit I guess).
Therefore, Jesus did not "age" but matured to perfection and was offered up at the height of that perfection.
Also, can we speak of Jesus as really "aging" because aging is the slow defeat of us under the power of death. It would appear that Jesus was offered up as the perfect sacrficie and therefore sometimes between the age of 30-33 is the ideal age of man and the utmost of his physical maturity (before the slow creaking decline towards the pit I guess).
Therefore, Jesus did not "age" but matured to perfection and was offered up at the height of that perfection.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
A perfect, i.e. glorified body wouldn't have any of the weaknesses Christ was subject to, including death. One could say that He was perfect, because bleeding after being whipped is not a sin.
So, we can say that Christ during the Incarnation was perfect, and joined to a fallen body, and there would be no contradiction because He never sinned. After He conquered death and rose, His body became glorified, and no longer subject to the fall.
So, we can say further that He still has this glorified body, which is not subject to the fall, but His nature remains the same as during the Incarnation.
Archlute
Puritan Board Senior
Well, I began losing hair by my late twenties, if that counts for anything
I would say that his perfection has much more to do with his perfect obedience and his sinless life than with the state of his body, especially when taken in light of Isaiah 53:2.
Well, I began losing hair by my late twenties, if that counts for anything
I would say that his perfection has much more to do with his perfect obedience and his sinless life than with the state of his body, especially when taken in light of Isaiah 53:2.
Well of course it has "much more" to do with it - but it does have "something" to do with it.
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
brother, are you reading any replies to your posts? Why couldn't He have been sinless and still born into a fallen body?
If a man bleeds after being whipped, is that a sin?
If He were born into a perfect body could He have been subject to tempation, the better to sympathise with us, if God cannot be tempted?
Aging is a result of the fall. I am trying to figure out how limited the human body is due to the fall. How can Jesus escape the sin of original corruption but not escape the decay and limitations that were due to that original corruption.
Would Adam have bled if you whipped him? Did Adam age?
Would Adam have bled if you whipped him? Did Adam age?
TimV
Puritanboard Botanist
That was part of the whole point of the Incarnation. God Himself leaving glory to take on Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Subect to all our temptations but remaining pure.
A fallen body is the result of sin, but that doesn't mean the body is inherantly sinful. Prone to sin, yes, but that is a different thing entirely.
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