Distinguishing between the regenerate and unregenerate

[Toasty]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence? I have known professing Christians who have committed certain sins for a long period of time and other people would say that they are definitely not Christians. If they were Christians, they would not be committing those sins for that amount of time. Other people would say that they are saved, but they just need to grow more.

I'm not going to mention the particular sins that were being committed, but would it matter which sins were committed?

 

[Scott Bushey]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence? I have known professing Christians who have committed certain sins for a long period of time and other people would say that they are definitely not Christians. If they were Christians, they would not be committing those sins for that amount of time. Other people would say that they are saved, but they just need to grow more.

I'm not going to mention the particular sins that were being committed, but would it matter which sins were committed?

http://www.semperreformanda.com/2016/02/thomas-brooks-on-relapsing-sins/

 

[Scott Bushey]

More from Brooks:

"2.] Secondly, There is a CONTRACTED and an habituated cannot; and of this cannot the prophet speaks in Jer. 6:10, "To whom shall I speak, and give warning, that they may hear? behold, their ear is uncircumcised, and they cannot hearken: behold, the word of the Lord is unto them a reproach: they have no delight in it." They had by their carnality, impiety, sensuality, security, and obstinacy; contracted upon their poor souls such deafness, wretchedness, unteachableness, and untractableness, that they could neither love the word nor like it; they could neither take pleasure nor delight in it; nay, they could neither hear it nor bear it, though it ever so nearly concerned the internal and eternal welfare of their souls. And of this cannot the apostle speaks in 2 Pet. 2:14, "Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: a heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children." [… this phrase of having eyes full of the adulteress answers to that of the rhetorician, who, describing an unchaste, lascivious person, rhetorically said of him that he had whores in his eyes.] By their riot and excess, by their lasciviousness and wantonness, by their looseness and uncleanness which they had habituated and accustomed themselves unto—they brought upon themselves a cursed necessity of sinning, so that they could not cease from sin.

They mourn over sin—and yet they cannot cease from sin; they resolve against sin—yet they cannot cease to sin; they pray against sin—yet they cannot cease to sin; they make many promises, vows, and covenants against sin—yet they cannot cease from sin, their souls being habituated and accustomed thereunto: Jer 2:20, "For of old time I have broken your yoke, and burst your bands; and you said I will not transgress"—I will never more play the harlot; but were they as good as their word? no!—"for upon every high hill and under every green tree they wandered, playing the harlot."


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[Peairtach]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence? I have known professing Christians who have committed certain sins for a long period of time and other people would say that they are definitely not Christians. If they were Christians, they would not be committing those sins for that amount of time. Other people would say that they are saved, but they just need to grow more.

I'm not going to mention the particular sins that were being committed, but would it matter which sins were committed?

How long is "a long period of time"?

What about a believer that commits a particular sin for a short period of time and then dies?

When the Apostle John talks about practising sin is he talking about the general course of heart and life or about someone commiting a particular sin more than once after conversion?

If we include sins of omission and sins of heart and thought is there any believer who hasn't repeated a particular sin or particular sins for an ongoing period.

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[timfost]

At the end of the day, we don't know as God does. All we have is the fruit of regeneration to go by. With those who display more fruits of the Spirit, the more assurance we have that they are regenerate. The less fruit that we see, the less assurance.

God sanctifies each of us to the extent that He will. Based on fruit, I probably wouldn't have said "righteous Lot" (2 Pet. 2:7), but this only goes to show how my knowledge is not absolute as is God's.

Certainly we cannot comfort someone when they live in unrepentant sin (1Cor. 5:5). But nor can we say with certainty that they are unregenerate.

We get into trouble fast when we think we know the heart as God knows it.

 

[jwithnell]

The confession does recognize a difference in sins and demonstrates that a person's behavior typically reflects the new heart Christ has given. But it's not our place to decide if a person is regenerate or not. It is our job to come alongside and to solemnly warn about the danger of sin. If that person is part of our church we can even bring an elder to talk again, but not to decide on a person's state. We'd do so in the hope of restoration. It might become the officers' duty to deal further with that person to preserve the peace and purity of the church, but that's not the job of an individual believer.

There was a time that I walked apart from Christ for several years. When I look back, it is with some fear -- my life would have suggested (as Hebrews teaches) that I was not a believer and that would be a terrible way to die.

Why did God restore me and bring back to full fire an ember that burned so dimly? Grace alone.
After many years in the faith I've known evident believers who have left and never come back. How long is too long? It's not for me to say and their churches have faithfully executed discipline. As long as they're alive, I have hope they will return, and I continue to pray for them.

 

[JimmyH]

The first thing that came to my mind on reading the OP was 'abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul.' 1 Peter 2:11 Before I was regenerate sin didn't 'war against my soul.' Once saved I began to pay too great a price of misery to continue in habitual sin.

At the same time I draw comfort from knowing that I am not alone in this warfare. The extended quote below from Reverend Alexander Whyte in chapter 14 of Bunyan Characters 3rd series ; Recounting the last words of Pastor John Menzies of Aberdeen ---

"Oh to have one more Sabbath in my pulpit !" What then would you do ? asked someone who sat at his bedside. "I would preach on the difficulty of salvation.!" exclaimed the dying man.

Now the first difficulty that stands in the way of our salvation is the stupendous mass of guilt that has accumulated upon all of us. Our guilt is so great that we dare not think of it. It is too horrible to believe that we shall ever be called to account for one in a thousand of it.

It crushes our minds with a perfect stupor of horror, when for a moment we try to imagine a day of judgment when we shall be judged for all the deeds that we have done in the body. Heart-beat after heart-beat, breath after breath, hour after hour, day after day, year after year, and all full of sin; all nothing but sin from our mother's womb to our grave.

Sometimes one outstanding act of sin has quite overwhelmed us. But before long that awful sin fell out of mind. Other sins of the same kind succeeded it. Our sense of sin, our sense of guilt was soon extinguished by a life of sin, till, at the present moment the accumulated and tremendous load of our sin and guilt is no more felt by us than we feel the tremendous load of the atmosphere.

But all the time, does not our great guilt lie sealed down upon us ? Because we are too seared and too stupefied to feel it, is it therefore not there ? Because we never think of it, does that prove that both God and man have forgiven and forgotten it ? Shall the Judge of all the earth do right in the matter of all men's guilt but ours ?

Does the apostle's warning not hold in our case ? -- his awful warning that we shall all stand before the judgment-seat? And is it only a strong figure of speech that the books shall be opened till we shall cry to the mountains to cover us ? On no ! the truth is, the half has not been told us of the speechless stupefaction that shall fall on us when the trumpet shall sound and when Alp upon Alp of aggravated guilt shall rise up high as heaven between us and our salvation.

Difficulty is not the name for guilt like ours. Impossibility is the better name we should always know it by. Another difficulty or impossibility to our salvation rises out of the awful corruption and pollution of our hearts. But is there any use entering on that subject ? Is there one man in a hundred who even knows the rudiments of the language I must now speak in ?

Is there one man in a hundred in whose mind any idea arises, and in whose heart any emotion of passion is kindled, as I proceed to speak of the corruption of the nature and pollution of the heart ? I do not suppose it, I do not presume upon it. I do not believe it. That most miserable man who is let down of God's Holy Spirit into the pit of corruption that is in his own heart, ---- to him his corruption, added to his guilt, causes a sadness that nothing in this world can really relieve ; it causes a deep and an increasing melancholy, such as the ninety and nine who need no repentance and feel no pollution know nothing of.

All living men flee from the corruption of an unburied corpse. The living at once set about to bury their dead. "I am a stranger and a sojourner among you.' said Abraham to the children of Heth ; 'give me a possession of a burying-place among you that I may bury my dead our of my sight.' But Paul could find no grave in the whole world in which to bury out of his sight the body of death to which he was chained fast ;

that body of sin and death to which he was chained fast ; that body of sin and death which always makes the holiest of men and the most wretched of men, --- till the loathing and the disgust and the misery that filled the apostle's heart are to be understood by but one in a thousand and even of the people of God.

And then, as if to make our salvation a very hyperbole of impossibility, the all but almighty power of indwelling sin comes in. Have you ever tried to break loose from the old fetter of an evil habit ? Have you ever said on New Year's Day with Thomas à Kempis that this year you would root that appetite, --- naming it,--- out of your heart ?

Have you ever sworn at the Communion table that you would watch and pray, and set a watch on your evil heart against that envy, and that revenge, and that ill-will, and that distaste, dislike and antipathy ? Then your minister will not need to come back from his death-bed to preach to you on the difficulty of salvation.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence?

Henry,

This is not meant to sound trite but the difference is that the former is enslaved to sin while the latter is not.

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate) who have never been taught about the nature of indwelling sin and the fact that sin does not have dominion over them if they are in Christ. I believe there are likely many Christians who are discipled very poorly and have never been instructed on how to battle sin and mortify it. They view sin as something they will be healed from if they "let go" rather than something that they must give battle unto.

I think that it's best to come alongside someone who feels enslaved by sin and confesses Christ to determine whether they understand the nature of their life in Christ. It might be the case that their defeat is caused by poor habits. I also think that such a man has to ask himself whether his own elders know much of what the Scriptures teach about mortification and whether they themselves are practicing this and can give Godly counsel/encouragement to a struggling Christian.

 

[Edward]

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate)

I hope I mis-understand what you are saying there. If they aren't regenerate, they aren't Christians.

 

[Toasty]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence? I have known professing Christians who have committed certain sins for a long period of time and other people would say that they are definitely not Christians. If they were Christians, they would not be committing those sins for that amount of time. Other people would say that they are saved, but they just need to grow more.

I'm not going to mention the particular sins that were being committed, but would it matter which sins were committed?

How long is "a long period of time"?

What about a believer that commits a particular sin for a short period of time and then dies?

When the Apostle John talks about practising sin is he talking about the general course of heart and life or about someone commiting a particular sin more than once after conversion?

If we include sins of omission and sins of heart and thought is there any believer who hasn't repeated a particular sin or particular sins for an ongoing period.

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I'm not sure how long is a long period of time.

I think the Apostle John is talking about the general course of the heart.

 

[TheOldCourse]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence?

Henry,

This is not meant to sound trite but the difference is that the former is enslaved to sin while the latter is not.

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate) who have never been taught about the nature of indwelling sin and the fact that sin does not have dominion over them if they are in Christ. I believe there are likely many Christians who are discipled very poorly and have never been instructed on how to battle sin and mortify it. They view sin as something they will be healed from if they "let go" rather than something that they must give battle unto.

I think that it's best to come alongside someone who feels enslaved by sin and confesses Christ to determine whether they understand the nature of their life in Christ. It might be the case that their defeat is caused by poor habits. I also think that such a man has to ask himself whether his own elders know much of what the Scriptures teach about mortification and whether they themselves are practicing this and can give Godly counsel/encouragement to a struggling Christian.

It seems not much has changed since Owen's day:

"

I cannot but by the way complain of many professors of these
days, who, instead of bringing forth such great and evident fruits of mortifi-
cation as are expected, scarce bear any leaves of it. There is, indeed, a broad
light fallen upon the men of this generation, and together therewith many spiritual
gifts communicated, which, with some other considerations, have won derfully enlarged
the bounds of professors and profession; both they and it are
exceedingly multiplied and increased. Hence there is a noise of religion and
religious duties in every corner, preaching in abundance—and that not in an
empty, light, trivial, and vain manner, as formerly, but to a good proportion
of a spiritual gift—so that if you will measure the number of believers by light,
gifts, and profession, the church may have cause to say, “Who has born me
all these?” But now if you will take the measure of them by this great discriminating
grace of Christians, perhaps you will find their number not so multiplied.
Where almost is that professor who owes his conversion to these days
of light, and so talks and professes at such a rate of spirituality as few in former
days were, in any measure, acquainted with (I will not judge them, but
perhaps boasting what the Lord has done in them), that does not give evidence
of a miserably unmortified heart? If vain spending of time, idleness, unprofitableness
in men’s places, envy, strife, variance, emulations, wrath, pride,
worldliness, selfishness (1 Corinthians 1) be badges of Christians, we have
them on us and among us in abundance. And if it be so with them who have
much light, and which, we hope, is saving, what shall we say of some who
would be accounted religious and yet despise gospel light, and for the duty we
have in hand, know no more of it but what consists in men’s denying themselves
sometimes in outward enjoyments, which is one of the outmost branches
of it, which yet they will seldom practice? The good Lord send out a spirit of
mortification to cure our distempers, or we are in a sad condition!

 

[Peairtach]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence? I have known professing Christians who have committed certain sins for a long period of time and other people would say that they are definitely not Christians. If they were Christians, they would not be committing those sins for that amount of time. Other people would say that they are saved, but they just need to grow more.

I'm not going to mention the particular sins that were being committed, but would it matter which sins were committed?

How long is "a long period of time"?

What about a believer that commits a particular sin for a short period of time and then dies?

When the Apostle John talks about practising sin is he talking about the general course of heart and life or about someone commiting a particular sin more than once after conversion?

If we include sins of omission and sins of heart and thought is there any believer who hasn't repeated a particular sin or particular sins for an ongoing period.

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I'm not sure how long is a long period of time.

I think the Apostle John is talking about the general course of the heart.

Sorry if I sounded brusque, Toasty.

I think this question partly depends on whether it's from the point of view of the individual or those around him. Only a person himself/herself can make his calling and election sure I.e. can be infallible about his state. Those around him or in the session can only pass judgment on his behaviour and judge from that his spiritual state. They cannot look at the heart itself.

Also, I think that - as has has been said before - some sins are "infirmities" and others are "presumptuous", committed with a high-hand. The Torah and the Psalms make this distinction, and it is still relevant to how sin is dealt with in the NT Church. It also is important to how we regard someone who professes faith and how we regard our own profession.

Probably all Christians - just as they are never free of sin - have repeated infirmities of omission, or even of commission, in their lives, whereas we would not expect the mature or even quite young believer to be often committing sin with a high hand, such that the session had to discipline him.

The sign of the true Christian is not that he is free of all sin and therefore of repeated infirmities, but - as has been indicated before - his attitude to them.

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[Ed Walsh]

s there one man in a hundred in whose mind any idea arises, and in whose heart any emotion of passion is kindled, as I proceed to speak of the corruption of the nature and pollution of the heart? I do not suppose it, I do not presume upon it. I do not believe it. That most miserable man who is let down of God's Holy Spirit into the pit of corruption that is in his own heart, ---- to him his corruption, added to his guilt, causes a sadness that nothing in this world can really relieve; it causes a deep and an increasing melancholy, such as the ninety and nine who need no repentance and feel no pollution know nothing of.

I think this guy is suffering from a severe melancholy due to his weakened and sick condition. Paul, the chief of sinners found relief to a great extent in the gospel. Nothing that a good dose of Christ and his shed blood wouldn't cure. I could quote many scriptures that show that "there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared" (from Psalm 130) but I will only quote two from Paul's experiences
[BTW - I am personally acquainted with the "depths" of sin this man speaks of (Psalm 130:1)]

1 Timothy 1:13-16
13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Romans 7:24-Romans 8:2
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [This is where Pastor John Menzies stops]
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

 

[timfost]

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate)

I hope I mis-understand what you are saying there. If they aren't regenerate, they aren't Christians.

Rich, correct me if I'm wrong, but I took what you were saying simply as a visible/invisible church distinction. Not all in the visible church are part of the invisible, though they are called Christians.

I appreciated your post.

 

[Jack K]

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate)

I hope I mis-understand what you are saying there. If they aren't regenerate, they aren't Christians.

We need not say "supposed Christians" or "possible Christians" every time we speak of people in the church who profess to believe. We may simply call them "Christians," even though we know some of them may not actually be regenerate. I think Rich's wording is fine and reflects the way people generally talk.

As for the question in the OP...

would it matter which sins were committed?

The key difference between a true believer and an unbeliever is not the level of holiness they have attained, but rather their trajectory of life. Believers may still sin often but they battle sin and are moving away from it, even if in God's timing that movement seems slow and/or uneven. Unbelievers, on the other hand, don't fight and remain complacent about known sin.

To the extent that their continued sin reveals a complacent heart, I think the type of sin could be a clue as to whether or not a person is a true believer. If we're talking about sin that is clearly wrong and easily visible and perhaps even scandalous, and yet the sinner does not grieve or take obvious steps to fight the sin, that is a bad sign. It suggests the heart is not engaged in fighting sin. However, much sin is hard to detect (even for the sinner himself) or seems respectable in good company, so that even people who are vigorously pursuing holiness in many areas of their lives may be lulled into overlooking such sin. I wouldn't want to suggest such a person is an unbeliever; after all, it describes most of us!

 

[JimmyH]

s there one man in a hundred in whose mind any idea arises, and in whose heart any emotion of passion is kindled, as I proceed to speak of the corruption of the nature and pollution of the heart? I do not suppose it, I do not presume upon it. I do not believe it. That most miserable man who is let down of God's Holy Spirit into the pit of corruption that is in his own heart, ---- to him his corruption, added to his guilt, causes a sadness that nothing in this world can really relieve; it causes a deep and an increasing melancholy, such as the ninety and nine who need no repentance and feel no pollution know nothing of.

I think this guy is suffering from a severe melancholy due to his weakened and sick condition. Paul, the chief of sinners found relief to a great extent in the gospel. Nothing that a good dose of Christ and his shed blood wouldn't cure. I could quote many scriptures that show that "there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared" (from Psalm 130) but I will only quote two from Paul's experiences
[BTW - I am personally acquainted with the "depths" of sin this man speaks of (Psalm 130:1)]

Thanks Ed, I regret that I took Alexander Whyte out of context. I don't think I've read anyone who is more aware of the Atonement than he is. What impressed me about that particular excerpt of his sermon was how much he identified the sin nature that is in all of us ........ or should I say in me if in no one else on this board.

It seems to me that many people come here for help, bewailing their sin, or that of a friend, and they receive good feedback, but are sometimes left feeling like 'the Lone Ranger' when it comes to the sinful nature. Alexander Whyte certainly knew and preached Romans 8:1.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate)

I hope I mis-understand what you are saying there. If they aren't regenerate, they aren't Christians.

Rich, correct me if I'm wrong, but I took what you were saying simply as a visible/invisible church distinction. Not all in the visible church are part of the invisible, though they are called Christians.

I appreciated your post.

The believers at Antioch were first called Christians not because each and every member of the Church was regenerate. All we're called upon as elders is to take people by their profession and life. We can't know the hidden operations of the Spirit. When someone comes for counsel then I counsel them on the basis that they have made a public profession of faith in Christ. Might I learn from more interaction that they don't know the Gospel? Might it be Today that they heed the voice of God in the operation of ministry? I think a Christian could be converted for the first time having heard that those in Christ have been set free from the bondage of sin and death. I simply can't start every conversation with: "Well, I'm not sure you're a Christian because I don't know if you're elect (the Lord only knows). You may even be convinced you're a Christian but you might have a false assurance. Assuming you're elect, however, let me tentatively assume you're a Christian and, if so, then Romans 6:1-11 belongs to you...."

 

[MW]

Alexander Whyte was not a good guide on Christian character. Note some of his "appreciations." They embrace latitudinarians and mystics.

 

[Toasty]

What is the difference between an unregenerate person and a regenerate person who struggles with sin for a long period of time in God's providence?

Henry,

This is not meant to sound trite but the difference is that the former is enslaved to sin while the latter is not.

I know many Christians (it's not my job to judge whether they are regenerate) who have never been taught about the nature of indwelling sin and the fact that sin does not have dominion over them if they are in Christ. I believe there are likely many Christians who are discipled very poorly and have never been instructed on how to battle sin and mortify it. They view sin as something they will be healed from if they "let go" rather than something that they must give battle unto.

I think that it's best to come alongside someone who feels enslaved by sin and confesses Christ to determine whether they understand the nature of their life in Christ. It might be the case that their defeat is caused by poor habits. I also think that such a man has to ask himself whether his own elders know much of what the Scriptures teach about mortification and whether they themselves are practicing this and can give Godly counsel/encouragement to a struggling Christian.

That's true. Believers have indwelling sin and they must fight against sin.