Does God know Everything?

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Does God know everything? Does God know in His divine nature what it is to be a creature, an angel, a human being, an animal, a sinner? If God did not learn anything in Christ's human nature, what's the point of the emphasis in Hebrews 4:15 on Christ's ability to empathise with our weaknesses? Couldn't we also seek comfort in God's unlimited knowledge?

 

[earl40]

Jesus before the incarnation did not empathize with us because as God He could not suffer or feel pain. In saying this, there is a difference between being empathetic (after the incarnation) and understanding or sympathizing (before and after the incarnation).

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Jesus before the incarnation did not empathize with us because as God He could not suffer or feel pain. In saying this, there is a difference between being empathetic (after the incarnation) and understanding or sympathizing (before and after the incarnation).

I understand that. So, are you saying the Son of God learned something new in His incarnation and sufferings? Can you also define the term "emphatize" for me? Does it necessarily have to do with knowledge?

 

[earl40]

Jesus in His humanity grew in knowledge and Jesus did not experience pain (empathy) until He took on flesh. In His divinity Jesus never suffered now then or ever. The 2 natures of Jesus are portrayed in scripture and one should keep in mind each nature retains the proper properties of each.

Empathy is the word we use to say I know how you feel because I have felt the same way.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Empathy is the word we use to say I know how you feel because I have felt the same way.

So, in effect you are saying the persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit cannot know how we feel because they have never felt the same way? In other words, God in His divinity does not know everything.

I don't think the ability to know is necessarily limited in any way. I believe that when I am glorified in Christ I will know and understand everything that does not cross the line of God's holiness. I will know, as a man, what it is to be a woman. I will know what it is to be an animal, an angel, Satan -- I will know everything that a creature is capable of knowing.

 

[earl40]

Empathy is the word we use to say I know how you feel because I have felt the same way.

So, in effect you are saying the persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit cannot know how we feel because they have never felt the same way? In other words, God in His divinity does not know everything.

I don't think the ability to know is necessarily limited in any way. I believe that when I am glorified in Christ I will know and understand everything that does not cross the line of God's holiness. I will know, as a man, what it is to be a woman. I will know what it is to be an animal, an angel, Satan -- I will know everything that a creature is capable of knowing.

Of course The Lord Jesus knew what it felt like to have pain but He did not experienced until the incarnation. Someone can sympathize without experiencing. Though one cannot empathize without the experience.

 

[anotherpilgrim]

Empathy is the word we use to say I know how you feel because I have felt the same way.

So, in effect you are saying the persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit cannot know how we feel because they have never felt the same way? In other words, God in His divinity does not know everything.

I don't think the ability to know is necessarily limited in any way. I believe that when I am glorified in Christ I will know and understand everything that does not cross the line of God's holiness. I will know, as a man, what it is to be a woman. I will know what it is to be an animal, an angel, Satan -- I will know everything that a creature is capable of knowing.

Of course The Lord Jesus knew what it felt like to have pain but He did not experienced until the incarnation. Someone can sympathize without experiencing. Though one cannot empathize without the experience.

So, a 'knowledge' of some sort is gained through the incarnation experience that wasn't there before it...? Which would imply that before the incarnation God didn't have that experiential knowledge...? Which then technically implies he wasn't all-knowing till after the incarnation... contradicting an essential eternal attribute of God...?

Can someone help me figure out where I"m messing up in this chain of thought?

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

Empathy is the word we use to say I know how you feel because I have felt the same way.

So, in effect you are saying the persons of God the Father and God the Holy Spirit cannot know how we feel because they have never felt the same way? In other words, God in His divinity does not know everything.

I don't think the ability to know is necessarily limited in any way. I believe that when I am glorified in Christ I will know and understand everything that does not cross the line of God's holiness. I will know, as a man, what it is to be a woman. I will know what it is to be an animal, an angel, Satan -- I will know everything that a creature is capable of knowing.

Of course The Lord Jesus knew what it felt like to have pain but He did not experienced until the incarnation. Someone can sympathize without experiencing. Though one cannot empathize without the experience.

Ok, now define "sympathize" for me, please.

 

[Cymro]

May it not revolve around the meaning of the word 'know'?
God knows everything for his knowledge is infinite, His intelligence supreme.
He knows what sin is otherwise he would not have sent His beloved Son.
But it is impossible for Him to experience it, and the only way he could
enter into our plight was by assuming, our nature. Knowledge and experience
are separate and distinct.

 

[Loopie]

I think we have to first address a proper definition of 'knowledge'. Does someone have to actually 'experience' something to 'know' that it is true? I believe God 'knows' all things, although there are some things that God has not 'experienced' (God has never sinned, and has never broken his own divine laws). But just because you don't 'experience' something does not mean you lack knowledge. I 'know' that if I ingest cyanide I will die. But that doesn't mean I can't truly 'know' it as a fact until I experience it. In fact, we as parents try to teach our kids things so that they don't have to 'experience' them first hand. I would prefer if my child does not 'know' what it feels like to get arrested for a DUI, or to have sex outside of marriage. In this way, not having the 'experience' of something does not necessarily take away from the 'knowledge' of it.

Another example is our knowledge of Scripture. ALL of us 'know' that Jesus died on the cross and rose again on the third day. But we weren't physically present at his crucifixion. We did not actually see him get crucified. Does that mean our 'knowledge' is somehow less? I am inclined to point towards what Jesus says to Thomas:

John 20:28-29 (NASB)
28 Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus *said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."

 

[MW]

God's knowledge includes all personal experiences of the creature because "in Him we live and move and have our being." The great offence of sin is not owing to the fact that God is "watching us from a distance," but that He is immanently involved with the creation and His divine condescension and glorious manifestation suffers from it, even though it does not and cannot touch His essence.

 

[Peairtach]

I don't think the ability to know is necessarily limited in any way. I believe that when I am glorified in Christ I will know and understand everything that does not cross the line of God's holiness. I will know, as a man, what it is to be a woman. I will know what it is to be an animal, an angel, Satan -- I will know everything that a creature is capable of knowing.

I've never imagined that I'll know what it is to be a woman, when I go to Heaven, Samuel. I don't particularly want to know it.

Heaven will be a place of learning for glorified human beings.



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[InSlaveryToChrist]

I don't think the ability to know is necessarily limited in any way. I believe that when I am glorified in Christ I will know and understand everything that does not cross the line of God's holiness. I will know, as a man, what it is to be a woman. I will know what it is to be an animal, an angel, Satan -- I will know everything that a creature is capable of knowing.

I've never imagined that I'll know what it is to be a woman, when I go to Heaven, Samuel. I don't particularly want to know it.

Heaven will be a place of learning for glorified human beings.



Sent from my HTC Wildfire using Tapatalk 2

What is there to learn when we will be perfected in knowledge? What is left is God's holiness and we cannot touch that.

 

[a mere housewife]

But surely our knowledge will be perfected appropriate to the creature that we are? Otherwise the distinctions between the creatures God made would be spurious; and being a man or woman -- being the exact man or woman that we are -- would be inherently sinful, imperfect: something from which we must be redeemed to a less definite organism. Why did God make you or me except that He wishes to be known by the creature He made? What is the point of our experience of His goodness here that is unique, and does not violate the number of providential factors (male, female, and many other aspect of our genetics and environments) -- if the goal is to just pool everything and give me access to all your information? The conception of perfect knowledge seems meaningless if it is being abstracted from the knower and the one known. Knowledge is participation, and implies at least two definite persons who know according to their definite-ness -- so perfect knowledge will never give us infinite knowledge of God, for we are not infinite. Why should it give me knowledge of what it is to be a man: I am not a man. Perfection is not simply morphing into an irridescent blot.

 

[TylerRay]

Does God know in His divine nature what it is to be a creature, an angel, a human being, an animal, a sinner?

God invented every one of those concepts.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

But surely our knowledge will be perfected appropriate to the creature that we are? Otherwise the distinctions between the creatures God made would be spurious; and being a man or woman -- being the exact man or woman that we are -- would be inherently sinful, imperfect: something from which we must be redeemed to a less definite organism. Why did God make you or me except that He wishes to be known by the creature He made? What is the point of our experience of His goodness here that is unique, and does not violate the number of providential factors (male, female, and many other aspect of our genetics and environments) -- if the goal is to just pool everything and give me access to all your information? The conception of perfect knowledge seems meaningless if it is being abstracted from the knower and the one known. Knowledge is participation, and implies at least two definite persons who know according to their definite-ness -- so perfect knowledge will never give us infinite knowledge of God, for we are not infinite. Why should it give me knowledge of what it is to be a man: I am not a man. Perfection is not simply morphing into an irridescent blot.

Heidi,

I never suggested we could have infinite knowledge like God does, but that we could have all the knowledge that is creaturely possible (not as a man, not as a woman, but as a creature). However, contradicting that unbiblical view, I agree with all of what you said and stay corrected.

 

[Eved]

what's the point of the emphasis in Hebrews 4:15 on Christ's ability to empathise with our weaknesses? Couldn't we also seek comfort in God's unlimited knowledge?

A good example is Christs' temptation (Matthew 4:1-11, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-13). Christ can empathize with our weaknesses because he has experienced it, but God, although possessing the knowledge, can never be tempted (James 1:13). I hope that helps a little.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

I think empathy should be more accurately defined as "a feeling of someone's pain" in clear distinction from symphathy, "a knowledge of someone's pain". The former is impossible for God in His divinity, the latter belongs to God's knowledge.

 

[Loopie]

But he still does have a knowledge of our pain. Again, how do you 'know' something? What is knowledge based on? God's knowledge is based upon his divine decree. He has decreed all things, and therefore knows all things. But God does not have to become a liar or a murderer to know what those things are, or how those actions affect his creatures. But just because God himself is not a liar or a murderer does not mean that his knowledge is somehow 'less' then ours.

 

[InSlaveryToChrist]

But he still does have a knowledge of our pain.

I agree, but that is not my point. The reason why I'm making the above distinction is so that I can make sense of Hebrews 4:15. I cannot see any more reason to be comforted in the person of Christ according to His humanity than God according to His divinity. I don't understand the emphasis there, unless it is not referring to knowledge (which is there) but a fellow feeling of our sufferings and temptations. Feeling and knowledge are distinct things.

 

[rookie]

Brian Borgman has a few great sermons on exactly this topic, I believe they are called "Christology". If I remember correctly it's an 11 sermon series to cover it. I can say, it's a topic that is difficult to answer within a forum in just a few lines.
Though Christ, being God, gave up a few attributes in order to be human. While he is exactly the same as God in essence, (Christ is to God, what the sun rays are to the sun), he did give up things like omnipresence. Christ as a human couldn't be everywhere at the same time. And he also gave up the knowledge of everything in a sense that he did say "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father", Marc 13:32.

Another thing I would like to mention, I might be off base, but when we read the bible, there are certain things that are written to relate to us humans that weren't meant to be taken literal. For example, when it says in Leviticus 20:6 that he holds his face against evil. God doesn't have a "face", however we wouldn't be able to understand it in another language.

So when we are told that Christ was learning, he already had God's knowledge on nearly everything, but he was still in subordination to God. I recommend searching out Brian's sermons on it, should be on SermonAudio.com
He has a great explanation on this, that I might have completely screwed up :/

 

[Peairtach]

The orthodox teaching is that Christ "gave up" nothing of His deity but "emptied Himself" (kenosis, see Phillipians 2:7) by taking humanity (also not just humanity, but humanity in a state of humiliation, rather than glorification and exaltation) alongside His deity, including a human soul with limited knowledge.

He didn't cease to be God in any way, but also became fully man. There are two centres of conciousness in Christ, His divine nature and His human soul, yet He is one Person.

In His divinity, He was/is ominpresent, omnipotent and omniscient. In His human nature He was/is not.

We aren't expected to understand such things, just as we don't understand many other things in theology or in the natural world.

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[Convinced]

Jesus representation of God

In light of Heb 1:3

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. ~ NIV

and John 14:5-11

Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?” Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. ~ NIV


Wouldn't the Father have to be able to feel pain just like Jesus did in light of these verses?

 

[py3ak]

In light of Heb 1:3 and John 14:5-11 Wouldn't the Father have to be able to feel pain just like Jesus did in light of these verses?

I don't think so. Imagine if you applied that in other ways. Does the Father sleep? Jesus did, but what about Psalm 121:4? Jesus got tired - God doesn't, Isaiah 40:28. Or go for the big one: Jesus died, but God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16).

So those verses you referenced tell us that the Son reveals the Father, but they don't tell us that the Father is a man (because he isn't). Suffering, being acted upon, feeling pain, having passions, potential, etc. - these are all human rather than divine characteristics.

 

[Convinced]

In light of Heb 1:3 and John 14:5-11 Wouldn't the Father have to be able to feel pain just like Jesus did in light of these verses?

I don't think so. Imagine if you applied that in other ways. Does the Father sleep? Jesus did, but what about Psalm 121:4? Jesus got tired - God doesn't, Isaiah 40:28. Or go for the big one: Jesus died, but God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:16).

So those verses you referenced tell us that the Son reveals the Father, but they don't tell us that the Father is a man (because he isn't). Suffering, being acted upon, feeling pain, having passions, potential, etc. - these are all human rather than divine characteristics.

I agree with you that the Father does not actually feel pain or feel tired as Jesus actually did. But do you think that the Father knows what those feelings feel like? I would think He would need to if he knows everything as many Bible verses indicate. (Ps 147:5, Job 28:24, 1 Jn 3:19-20, etc.)

 

[py3ak]

God does know everything. That is clear in Scripture. But when we have said that, we have already suggested that God's knowledge is different from ours, because we can never know everything. Now a lot of our knowledge comes from experience: we see, hear, feel and therefore know. And so we think that someone can't really know unless they see, hear, feel, etc. But I think that those ways of knowing and learning are limited; not bad, just creaturely. They can never bring you to all knowledge, or even perfect knowledge of one thing. Our senses and brains filter out at least as much as they let in.
God's knowledge is not like that (compare Psalm 139). God simultaneously and directly knows all things through his own essence.
He knows us and our experience better than we do. Certainly God knows what pain feels like to us, but also to a shrimp or a frog, and a great deal more besides. But "feeling," like "remembering" or "realizing" or other human categories are only figuratively applied to God. For instance, we think: one thing leads to another in a chain of reasoning as we move from what is known into learning things we didn't know before. But God doesn't think, because there is nothing better or less well known to him. The theologians would say that God's thought is not discursive.
The point is that though God's knowledge isn't subject to our limitations, that doesn't make it less real. God knows all things, including the partial, temporal, and situated way in which we know things.