Does regeneration REALLY "precede" conversion?

[Pergamum]

Does it REALLY?

Chronologically?


"If I am to preach the faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. Am I only to preach faith to those who have it? Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners." [Spurgeon, The Warrant of Faith].



"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on Me hath everlasting life" (John 6:47). "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:15).


Eph 2:13: - In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.." [NOte: From this verseit appears that the sealing is preceded by the believing..what gives?]



Just how much of a gap of time is possible if the two events can even be spearated?

 

[turmeric]

If you're not preaching to those whom the Holy Spirit regenerates, which He might do while you're preaching, you're preaching to folks who are entirely unable to respond! Now that seems useless!

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

One must be given eyes to see and ears to hear first. One must have life before he can breath. So I would imagine that one must be alive first before he can respond in faith.

 

[Pergamum]

I knew your were going to say that....



So...how many seconds can exist between the two? Can you separate them? Where's your proof?




A doctrine of total depravity that excludes the possibility of faith must also exclude the possibilities of hearing the Word, giving serious application to divine truth and praying for the Holy Spirit for conviction and regeneration. The extreme Calvinist deals with a rather lively spiritual corpse after all." [Roy L. Aldrich, "The Gift of God," Biblio-theca Sacra, July 1965, pages 248-253].



SHould we consider regeneration/cpnversion as one packet or can a person be regernated in 1982 and then covnert in 2002?

 

[Puritan Sailor]

It's a logical order, not necessarily chronological. A person hears the external call of the gospel through preaching, but that preaching is not effectual to salvation until the Holy Spirit gives him a heart to believe and repent, and embrace Christ as offered in the gospel. Once that new heart is given, the response of faith is immediate. It's like a child newly born, the first thing he does when born is breathe then cry. Or like a blind man who has his eyes opened. He can't help but see with his new eyes, or hear with new ears, whatever metaphor Scripture uses. I think the best analogy we get though is Lazuras rising from the dead. Jesus commanded a dead corpse to rise, commanding the impossible, humanly speaking. But his word was accompanied with the resurrecting power of the Spirit, thus enabling Lazarus to obey and come forth. That's a great picture of regeneration through the power of effectual calling. Hope that helps.

 

[Southern Presbyterian]

SHould we consider regeneration/cpnversion as one packet or can a person be regernated in 1982 and then covnert in 2002?

I think we have to consider it a package deal. I also believe that when we consider the ordo salutis we are
dealing mainly with logical order as opposed to chronological order.

Robert Reymond has a great chapter on this in his systematic theology. I can get the exact reference for you when
I get home to my books, if you're interested. It's very good reading.

 

[satz]

I do believe that regeneration and conversion are not only logically seperate, but chronologically seperate as well.

I don't see any bible evidence that conversion must always immediately follow regeneration, or that there cannot be a time gap between the two events.

The bible attributes regeneration purely to the work of the Holy Spirit, not to the preaching or teaching of the gospel.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I believe the bible order is that the Spirit first regenerates by itself, then men come and convert via gospel preaching.

Why must they be considered a package deal ?

 

[DMcFadden]

Reymond, Part 3, Chapter 13 discusses the order of the decrees; Chapter 19 deals with the application of the benefits of the cross work of Christ in terms of the ordo salutis, especially . . .

The Specific Acts and Processes in the Order of Application
Two Divine Acts
* Effectual Calling
* Regeneration (New Birth)
Two Divine-Human Activities (Conversion)
* Repentance Unto Life
* Faith in Jesus Christ
Reymond, R. L. (1998). A new systematic theology of the Christian faith. Lectures delivered at Covenant Theological Seminary, St. Louis, Mo. and Knox Theological Seminary, Fort Lauderdale, Fla. (xv). Nashville: T. Nelson.

 

[Calvibaptist]

The bible attributes regeneration purely to the work of the Holy Spirit, not to the preaching or teaching of the gospel.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

I believe the bible order is that the Spirit first regenerates by itself, then men come and convert via gospel preaching.

Why must they be considered a package deal ?

You are right that the Bible attributes regeneration completely to the HS, but none of the verse you listed say anything about the means which the Holy Spirit uses (if any). There is one passage that clearly shows the means, though:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

According to this passage, the Holy Spirit (in His sovereignty) uses the Word of God to regenerate.

 

[Amazing Grace]

You are right that the Bible attributes regeneration completely to the HS, but none of the verse you listed say anything about the means which the Holy Spirit uses (if any). There is one passage that clearly shows the means, though:

1 Peter 1:22-23 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

According to this passage, the Holy Spirit (in His sovereignty) uses the Word of God to regenerate.

A closer look at this passage actually denoted that the Gospel, the word of God is actually the instrument of conversion and not regeneration. Also James 1;18 is used to wrongly prove "gospel regeneration'

Spirit regeneration is a truth that cannot be denied. The apostle Paul speaks this exactly when he states:

II Tim 1:10, where it says that God “hath brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel.” The word itself never makes one alive. But only brings life to one who has the light/eyes to see.... God quickens man before he can even have a heart to be moved by the word.


Now some primitive baptists have perverted this beautiful truth into saying something like pergamum asked. Can one be regenerated for a long time before being converted? This is an impossibility. God will not leave his regenerated elect worshipping baal for a long time before the gift of faith is given.

Now there are times one has been regenerated while hearing the Gospel, but the Gospel itself has no part in the quickening. It is 100% Holy SPirit wrought..

God’s act of giving spiritual life, to those who are spiritually dead, is distinct from the gospel; just as the faculty of sight is different from light. Quickening is an immediate and creative act;

“and you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins”; Ephesians 2:1


Michael Gowens, a primitive baptist presents a good article refuting Gosepl regeneration.

Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling


Nicholas

 

[elnwood]

SHould we consider regeneration/cpnversion as one packet or can a person be regernated in 1982 and then covnert in 2002?

I think we have to consider it a package deal. I also believe that when we consider the ordo salutis we are
dealing mainly with logical order as opposed to chronological order.

Robert Reymond has a great chapter on this in his systematic theology. I can get the exact reference for you when
I get home to my books, if you're interested. It's very good reading.

I also agree that it is logical order, not chronological order, that it is a "package deal."

In previous threads on this board, some paedobaptists were arguing that one could be regenerated and not converted by the Word of God until years later, in order to defend the idea that one can presume some infants to be regenerated.

 

[Davidius]

I don't want to build a doctrine from my own experience but I seemed to have been regenerated before hearing the Gospel in its fullness and being converted. I still remember being at a party one night and all of a sudden having a realization of my sin and the wickedness of the life which I was living. Thereafter I began to read the Bible on my own and found a Christian friend whom I asked about Jesus.

 

[Dr Mike Kear]

In previous threads on this board, some paedobaptists were arguing that one could be regenerated and not converted by the Word of God until years later, in order to defend the idea that one can presume some infants to be regenerated.

Ahhh. Now we're getting to the rub. If we presume that God only regenerates those who hear and respond to the Word or if God only regenerates those whom He immediately converts with no lapse of time, then we must logically believe that either a) no infant dying before conversion is saved (this would include abortions, miscarriages, toddlers, etc.), or b) some infants are regenerated and converted without benefit of hearing the Word preached.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

Let me throw a monkey wrench into this parade.

When we look at the parable of the sower where the different kinds of soil represent the different kinds of people who receive or reject the word, are any of the four kinds of soil considered converts. Some receive the word joyfully then die. Only one of the four types is the genuine article. But can any of the other three types be considered those who converted for a season?

 

[PastorTim]

The recognition of who we are in our sins definitely forces us to gaze upon the face of God in recognition of who he is. Even still, this recognition is brought on by a sovereign act of God. The draw which the Holy Spirit puts on us toward God in a move away from that convicted sin is regeneration. We are turned away, become dead to our sins and are in turn 'born again' for we die with Christ and are resurrected with him. Then our faith in Him who regenrates grows by the hearing of the word and our journey in Christ is on.

 

[elnwood]

In previous threads on this board, some paedobaptists were arguing that one could be regenerated and not converted by the Word of God until years later, in order to defend the idea that one can presume some infants to be regenerated.

Ahhh. Now we're getting to the rub. If we presume that God only regenerates those who hear and respond to the Word or if God only regenerates those whom He immediately converts with no lapse of time, then we must logically believe that either a) no infant dying before conversion is saved (this would include abortions, miscarriages, toddlers, etc.), or b) some infants are regenerated and converted without benefit of hearing the Word preached.

You have the right idea ... although b) should read "some infants are regenerated and SAVED (not converted) without benefit of hearing the Word preached."

Thus, the question is raised, if regeneration and conversion can be separated in time, is regeneration alone without conversion sufficient for salvation?

 

[A5pointer]

Amazing, your interpretation of II "Tim 1:10, where it says that God “hath brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" Seems to interperet "gospel" as a declaration of the story seperated from the actual event/events referred to as the "gospel". It is the actual event of the crucifiction brings life. Am I understanding this rightly?

 

[Dr Mike Kear]

You have the right idea ... although b) should read "some infants are regenerated and SAVED (not converted) without benefit of hearing the Word preached."

Thus, the question is raised, if regeneration and conversion can be separated in time, is regeneration alone without conversion sufficient for salvation?

Thanks. You are right on how "b" should read.

"...if regeneration and conversion can be separated in time, is regeneration alone without conversion sufficient for salvation?"

The answer is yes, but only for "elect infants, dying in infancy..." and "...all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." (WCF X:III). For all others, In my humble opinion, conversion by grace through faith alone is required. I can't imagine an adult person being regenerated and then taking years to be converted. But I can see where God might regenerate a two year old who does not then instantaneously exercise a justifying faith.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Amazing, your interpretation of II "Tim 1:10, where it says that God “hath brought life and immortality to light through the Gospel" Seems to interperet "gospel" as a declaration of the story seperated from the actual event/events referred to as the "gospel". It is the actual event of the crucifiction brings life. Am I understanding this rightly?

I do not follow what you are saying Bruce.

The point Paul was making is that the Gospel, proclaiming the word, brings life to where there is light/regeneration.

The eyes must be opened, one must be able to see before being converted by the word.

 

[Amazing Grace]

Let me throw a monkey wrench into this parade.

When we look at the parable of the sower where the different kinds of soil represent the different kinds of people who receive or reject the word, are any of the four kinds of soil considered converts. Some receive the word joyfully then die. Only one of the four types is the genuine article. But can any of the other three types be considered those who converted for a season?

Randy, the answer is yes. Converted in their own eyes. Not converted by the power of the gospel. Not true Gospel conversion which lasts forever. Just like those in Matt 7 who in their OWN estimation are converted, will be cast away.This parable is a prime example of Spirit Regeneration without means. The soil has to be prepared by The Spirit in order to receive the word in faith and root.


And pergamum, I would also add that this truth should comfort your heart in your heathen conversion attempts. Screaming the word to a dead corpse will do you no good. Pray the Spirit preceedes your work preparing the soil when you arrive to proclaim the good news....

 

[Civbert]

...

1 Peter 1:22-23 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever

According to this passage, the Holy Spirit (in His sovereignty) uses the Word of God to regenerate.

This seems to point to conversion, not necessarily regeneration.

 

[Civbert]

...

Ahhh. Now we're getting to the rub. If we presume that God only regenerates those who hear and respond to the Word or if God only regenerates those whom He immediately converts with no lapse of time, then we must logically believe that either a) no infant dying before conversion is saved (this would include abortions, miscarriages, toddlers, etc.), or b) some infants are regenerated and converted without benefit of hearing the Word preached.

You have the right idea ... although b) should read "some infants are regenerated and SAVED (not converted) without benefit of hearing the Word preached."

Thus, the question is raised, if regeneration and conversion can be separated in time, is regeneration alone without conversion sufficient for salvation?

I think yes. I think often the effect of conversion is one becomes aware of believing the gospel. People who are given saving faith in infancy may be much older when they realize they have it - when the become aware they they understand and believe the gospel is true. So regeneration (being saved) can proceed conversion (knowing one is saved) if one is saved while an infant.

 

[elnwood]

Thus, the question is raised, if regeneration and conversion can be separated in time, is regeneration alone without conversion sufficient for salvation?

The answer is yes, but only for "elect infants, dying in infancy..." and "...all other elect persons who are uncapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word." (WCF X:III). For all others, In my humble opinion, conversion by grace through faith alone is required. I can't imagine an adult person being regenerated and then taking years to be converted. But I can see where God might regenerate a two year old who does not then instantaneously exercise a justifying faith.

I think yes. I think often the effect of conversion is one becomes aware of believing the gospel. People who are given saving faith in infancy may be much older when they realize they have it - when the become aware they they understand and believe the gospel is true. So regeneration (being saved) can proceed conversion (knowing one is saved) if one is saved while an infant.

Civbert, I would define conversion as actually having saving faith, not "knowing one is saved." Conversion, i.e. repentance, is actually a turning away from sin and towards Christ.

The problem I have with saying that one can be saved by regeneration only without a saving faith is that the Bible says that faith is credited as righteousness. If one does not have saving faith, then one does not has righteousness credited to their account and they cannot be saved.

To have faith, there must be something to have faith in. Thus, the Word of God is necessary for salvation. Now, I'm not saying that infants cannot be saved, for I believe the Holy Spirit can, by special revelation, bring the Word of God to infants such that they can have faith just as I have been told stories of people being saved through dreams in locations where the gospel had not yet been preached. I don't think this should be considered the norm, though.

 

[Pergamum]

Ok, guys, sorry I opened this can of worms.

SOme of my desires was to explore some of the issues broguht up.



(1) Some calvinists DO, in fact push for a lapse of time between regeneration and conversion.

(a) Some primitive baptists thus have "saints" that live like sinners, becuase they are eternally justified and are regenerate and just don't know it

(b) The paedobaptists speaks of infants being regenerate, and not yet converted sometimes. HOw does this differ from "child faith"?

Can anyone prove these things? I see nowhere that there can be a lapse in time between this "Packet" of regeneration/conversion. PLease prove that it can be so.





(2) Also, Gospel regeneration versus Spirit regeneration also came up.

A follow up question; If we reject Gospel regneration and "prove" Spirit regeneration, then how much of the Word must be known before the Spirit will regenerate? Will the SPirit regenerate one who has never heard a single verse read and only Jesus explained in paraphrase?

The Bible does speak of washing of water by the Word. Can someone explain a simple terms the history of this debate between GOspel versus Spirit regeneration.






(3) ALso, what about "Pre-Regeneration" efforts by the sinner?

Oftentimes, a man prays for salvation long before he is granted it. A man truly begins to "seek" and becomes a "Seeker" or an "Enquirer".

Explain the doctrine of seeking? It appears that the Holy Spirit does significient "ploughing work" in the soul before new life blooms forth. Thus, a dead soul can be a very active soul. Again the qoute:

A doctrine of total depravity that excludes the possibility of faith must also exclude the possibilities of hearing the Word, giving serious application to divine truth and praying for the Holy Spirit for conviction and regeneration. The extreme Calvinist deals with a rather lively spiritual corpse after all." [Roy L. Aldrich, "The Gift of God," Biblio-theca Sacra, July 1965, pages 248-253].



Finally, someone please explain the settled and agreed upon order of the Ordo salutis? Many things are listed as logically preceding other things, whereas it seems that much happens all at once. Is a linear view even wise to put forth instead of looking at salvation as an inseparable "packet"?

 

[py3ak]

1 John 5:1 (ESV)
Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.

1 John 4:7 (ESV)
Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God

1 John 3:9 (ESV)
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

I think if we compare these texts, we see that regeneration (being born of God) certainly does precede faith (w/ repentance, conversion).

 

[Pergamum]

Yes, again,...

What does it mean to "precede"...and how much of a lapse of time...if any?

 

[Amazing Grace]

Yes, again,...

What does it mean to "precede"...and how much of a lapse of time...if any?

it means that conversion is the fruit of regeneration. I do not know if a time can be given. But again, God will not leave His elect regenerated without converting them..

 

[Amazing Grace]

Ok, guys, sorry I opened this can of worms.

SOme of my desires was to explore some of the issues broguht up.



(1) Some calvinists DO, in fact push for a lapse of time between regeneration and conversion.

(a) Some primitive baptists thus have "saints" that live like sinners, becuase they are eternally justified and are regenerate and just don't know it

(b) The paedobaptists speaks of infants being regenerate, and not yet converted sometimes. HOw does this differ from "child faith"?

Can anyone prove these things? I see nowhere that there can be a lapse in time between this "Packet" of regeneration/conversion. PLease prove that it can be so.





(2) Also, Gospel regeneration versus Spirit regeneration also came up.

A follow up question; If we reject Gospel regneration and "prove" Spirit regeneration, then how much of the Word must be known before the Spirit will regenerate? Will the SPirit regenerate one who has never heard a single verse read and only Jesus explained in paraphrase?

no word will have to be known. The Holy Spirit preceedes the word preparing the soil to receive it and embrace it. Your question is backwards, you should have asked, "IF one rejects Spirit regeneration and embraces Gospel regeneration, then ....etc etc....JOhn 3 and Nicodemus is very very clear. 3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]" he is blind. Therefore no amount of preaching will open his eyes. He is dead... 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

The wind(Spirit) blows where it pleases,(upon the elect) we are totally passive.



Perg, it is not an either or, but a both and. There are examples of regeneration happeing well before hearing the word, and there are examples of it happening together. The most important fact is the Word alone will not bring to life those who are dead. You see this all the time in your mission field. You probably think they are sleepign so you yell louder like those against Elijah. Yet no result. Why? Becasue the Spirit did not open their eyes to see and embrace.

Please read the article by Gowens I provided.

 

[Pergamum]

Amazing Grace:

Thanks for the article. The message of God's sovereign grace is clear, most posts on this thread, however, keep going back to the basics. I need more nuance, beyond the simplistic "The dead cannot raise themselves.."



You mentioned: There are examples of regeneration happening well before hearing the word, and there are examples of it happening together.

Please give me the examples that have regeneration happening well before the hearing of the Word.


It appears that though one thing (regeneration) "causes" another (conversion) it is improper to speak of one "preceding" another because that term always brings to mind a chronological procession instead of a logical cause and effect. I do not see any chronological procession here, but only a logical cause and effect.

It still seems to me that regeneration/conversion are a packet deal and no lapse of time occurs between the two.





Also, what about the coming to Christ that a sinner does BEFORE they are regenerated? Many sinners pray much for salvation before they are finally saved. It appears that there is a pre-regeneration ploughing in the soil of the soul that the Holy SPirit does before he regenerates/converts a man, such that often one's conversion appears very gradual and one cannot even tell at what point one was born again.


I am prepared to defend the existence of a class of sinners called "Seekers" or "Enquirers" that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in gradually - though they are not yet saved. It appears then, that the dead soul is quite active.

Again:

"A doctrine of total depravity that excludes the possibility of faith must also exclude the possibilities of hearing the Word, giving serious application to divine truth and praying for the Holy Spirit for conviction and regeneration. The extreme Calvinist deals with a rather lively spiritual corpse after all." [Roy L. Aldrich, "The Gift of God," Biblio-theca Sacra, July 1965, pages 248-253].


Do you believe in a doctrine of Seeking or the existence of Seekers or Enquirers, who have "awakended" souls?

 

[Amazing Grace]

Amazing Grace:

Thanks for the article. The message of God's sovereign grace is clear, most posts on this thread, however, keep going back to the basics. I need more nuance, beyond the simplistic "The dead cannot raise themselves.."

Well perg, as Mick Jagger said,"You cant always get what you want"....

You mentioned: There are examples of regeneration happening well before hearing the word, and there are examples of it happening together.

Please give me the examples that have regeneration happening well before the hearing of the Word.

Take Paul's journeys. The Holy Spirit directed him to every place he went. There he made converts by preaching, it is known as the "Expectation of the Nations" where the Holy Spirit preceedes/goes ahead of the messenger of God and opens the eyes of the elect for them there. And since I believe that the effectual call coincides with the regeneration of the elect in certain instances, look at the example of Christ calling James and John. Zebedee and the hired hands were with them on the boat, yet Christ said "Follow Me" and only James and John followed, this is becasue the Holy Spirit moved them only to respond.

It appears that though one thing (regeneration) "causes" another (conversion) it is improper to speak of one "preceding" another because that term always brings to mind a chronological procession instead of a logical cause and effect. I do not see any chronological procession here, but only a logical cause and effect.

It still seems to me that regeneration/conversion are a packet deal and no lapse of time occurs between the two.

I will admit I do not dissect in such a way. chronological vs logical is deaf to my ears, but thats me. Botice Paul says Faith comes by hearing the word, not regeneration.

Also, what about the coming to Christ that a sinner does BEFORE they are regenerated? Many sinners pray much for salvation before they are finally saved. It appears that there is a pre-regeneration ploughing in the soil of the soul that the Holy SPirit does before he regenerates/converts a man, such that often one's conversion appears very gradual and one cannot even tell at what point one was born again.

Exactly my point perg. But it is not a pre regeneration, it is regeneration. No sinner comes or ever will come to Christ on His terms without the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Many do come to enquire who this Man of Nazareth is. To see His miracles, to hear Him speak, but yet are hardened each time they hear the Word. Are we to assume the 5000+ He fed are all elect? I do not remember when I was born from above. So I would be a perfect example of what you said. I cannot pinpoint my "Spiritual birthday."

I disagree with your assumption that prayer brings salvation perg. Our prayers are never said to save us, our repentance is never said to save us, be careful becasue this smacks of arminianism and puts ones salvation in their efforts. Perhaps you did not mean it as such.

I am prepared to defend the existence of a class of sinners called "Seekers" or "Enquirers" that the Holy Spirit seems to be working in gradually - though they are not yet saved. It appears then, that the dead soul is quite active.

Again:

"A doctrine of total depravity that excludes the possibility of faith must also exclude the possibilities of hearing the Word, giving serious application to divine truth and praying for the Holy Spirit for conviction and regeneration. The extreme Calvinist deals with a rather lively spiritual corpse after all." [Roy L. Aldrich, "The Gift of God," Biblio-theca Sacra, July 1965, pages 248-253].


Do you believe in a doctrine of Seeking or the existence of Seekers or Enquirers, who have "awakended" souls?

You and Mr Aldrich will be kicking against the pricks here. Regeneration is not a process, you are either dead or alive, there is no in between. Honestly perg, this is the error of the Wesleyan prevenient grace, now scripture does speak of a preceedign grace of preparation of the elect, but Aldrich and yourself appear to be saying the Holy Spirit puts one in the state of having the ability to be saved, yet may not. There is no example of a dead soul following Christ for a period of time, then gradually being saved. Regeneration is instantaneous.

"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, to them which believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12, 13).

First, it is not because grace runs in the blood—as the Jews supposed. Holiness is not transmitted from father to son. The child of the most pious parents is by nature equally as corrupt and is as far from God as is the offspring of infidels. Second, it is not because of any natural willingness—as Arminians contend: "nor of the will of the flesh" refers to man in his natural and corrupt state. He is not regenerated by any instinct, choice, or exertion of his own; he does not by any personal endeavor contribute anything towards being born again; nor does he cooperate in the least degree with the efficient cause: instead, every inclination of his heart, every exercise of his will, is in direct opposition thereto.

Third, the new birth is not brought about by the power and influence of others. No sinner is ever born again as the result of the persuasions and endeavors of preachers or Christian workers. However pious and wise they are, and however earnestly and strenuously they exert themselves to bring others to holiness, they do in no degree produce the effect. "If all the angels and saints in Heaven and all the godly on earth should join their wills and endeavors and unitedly exert all their powers to regenerate one sinner, they could not effect it; yea, they could do nothing toward it. It is an effect infinitely beyond the reach of finite wisdom and power: 1 Corinthians 3:6, 7" (S. Hopkins).

read this by Pink:

10. The Holy Spirit Regenerating

"Regeneration consists in a new, spiritual, supernatural, vital principle, or habit of grace infused into the soul, the mind, the will and affections, by the power of the Holy Spirit, disposing and enabling them in whom it is, unto spiritual, supernatural, vital actings and spiritual obedience" (John Owen). No new faculties are created, but instead, the powers of the soul are spiritualized and made alive unto God, fitted to enjoy God and hold communion with Him. Regeneration consists in a radical change of heart, for there is implanted a new disposition as the foundation of all holy exercises; the mind being renovated, the affections elevated, and the will emancipated from the bondage of sin. The effect of this is that the one who is born again loves spiritual things as spiritual, and values spiritual blessings on account of their being purely spiritual.