Does Scripture Teach The Earth is Flat, Round, like a Disc? Or Round like a ball?

Discussion in 'Natural Revelation and God's Creation' started by Ray, Feb 20, 2018.

  1. Round Ball?

    80.0%
  2. Round Flat Disc?

    10.0%
  3. Don’t know?

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  1. Ray

    Ray Puritan Board Freshman

    I’ve been talking lately to a few different brothers from different churches and a lot them believe the World is Flat and round like a Disc. And that’s there’s no evidence that the world is round like a ball. And that even on NASAs website there’s documents proving the worlds flat. So my question is what exactly does Scripture teach us on this topic? Sorry if this question is weird and sounds like a conspiracy.
     
  2. Contra_Mundum

    Contra_Mundum Pilgrim, Alien, Stranger Staff Member

    Scripture is "phenomenological," that is it expresses matters simply, and from the standpoint of ancient observers. The sun appears to rise and set from man's fixed position on the surface.

    At the same time, travelers and other sources of data could provide fresh perspectives. There are texts in the Bible that may be interpreted as describing a spherical earth. Is.40:22 comes to mind; or Job 26:7.

    Whether or not these are prototypical descriptions that more than hint at defying false cosmology: the Bible isn't a science textbook. It was not intended to convey a modern-instruments-precision of measurement.

    The world isn't flat, and people have actually known that for an extremely long time, because men have eyes and a brain that God created.
     
  3. Ray

    Ray Puritan Board Freshman

    How was satan able to show Christ all the Nations in the world from one mountain top if the world is round like a ball?
    King James Bible
    Matthew 4:8
    Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
     
  4. Von

    Von Puritan Board Freshman

    Even if the globe is flat, from which mountaintop is mankind able to see all the kingdoms of the world?
     
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  5. Von

    Von Puritan Board Freshman

    Is this type of thinking on the increase in the churches?
     
  6. Ed Walsh

    Ed Walsh Puritan Board Junior

    Von asks a good question above.

    Even if the world were flat, it would take supernatural power to show Jesus all the intricate details of all the kingdom's "glory."

    How did they reach a mountain from which the devil could show Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor”? In the vicinity of the Judean Wilderness or of Jerusalem, which mountain would that be? Did they glide smoothly through the sky, the devil functioning as a kind of engine? Did they sail along together all the way to Mount Everest? But even then, would not some kind of miracle have been required to enable the devil from there to show Jesus all the kingdoms of the world, and this not just in dim outline, but very distinctly, so that “all their splendor (or glory)” would be plainly visible; and again, not little by little during a lengthy period of time, but, as Luke adds, “in a moment”?

    This is not at all a question of believing Scripture or not believing it. It is simply a question of how best to interpret what we fully accept. The writer of this commentary has not been able anywhere to find a solution that satisfies him better than that of Calvin. In his Commentary, reflecting first on the second, then on the third, temptation, he remarks:

    “It is asked, was he [Jesus] actually carried to this elevated spot, or was it done in a vision?… What is added, that all the kingdoms of the world were exposed to Christ’s view … in one moment … agrees better with the idea of a vision than with any other theory. In a matter that is doubtful, and where ignorance brings no risk, I choose rather to suspend my judgment than to furnish contentious people with an excuse for a debate.”​

    Hendriksen, W., & Kistemaker, S. J. (1953–2001). Exposition of the Gospel According to Matthew (Vol. 9, pp. 231–232). Grand Rapids: Baker Book House.
     
  7. Gforce9

    Gforce9 Puritan Board Junior

    In the military and navigation worlds, there is about a 12-mile "view", because of the curved horizon. This is from anywhere on earth. If she were disk flat, this would only be the case on one plane and everywhere else would be unrestricted view. :2cents:
     
  8. Ray

    Ray Puritan Board Freshman

    Thank you for all your responses. This was a question circulating around some brothers lately and made me think about it. They insisted on how NASA lies and how there against the LORD spreading lies to deceive people. Especially how the mission to the moon was fake. And how’s there’s no actual pictures of the world from outer space.
     
  9. Alan D. Strange

    Alan D. Strange Puritan Board Junior

    So, "they" don't believe that we have the satellite technology to take pictures of the earth? I thought that these same folk might be concerned about excessive NSA snooping, quite impossible without such technology. Even if the "moon mission" was a studio trick, the entirety of space travel for the last sixty-plus years has been a hoax?

    Where do these folk come from and what is the point of their excessive conspiracy theorizing? It all seems to me a form of revanche on the part of the dispossessed with respect to the "haves" or to the establishment, something that understandably afflicts the world (no Marxism without it!), but should never mark God's people (Romans 12:9-21).

    Peace,
    Alan
     
  10. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    While I do believe that NASA is engaged in dark missions (which makes sense, given all the Masons and Nazis we brought over in Operation Paperclip--yes, I know those Nazis are dead but the projects live on), I don't think they are lying about space. Well, not on the minimalist side. If anything, I think space exploration is far more extensive than NASA lets on.

    So yeah, the earth is globish.
     
  11. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    I was thinking the same thing.

    It is really painful for me to see people fall for any absurd thing that attracts them simply because of rebellion.

    As for the flat-earth belief, I fall into a rant. I can only imagine that most of these folks have caught this brain-fog on the internet. They probably frequent Twitter and Facebook, with all of its members in different time zones around the earth (they might ask someone far away whether it's light or dark at the moment). They might even use GPS on their smart phones.

    All of those things are consistent with and rely upon the earth being a sphere.

    I suppose you could grant, for the sake of argument, that NASA is part of the conspiracy, as are all the scientists. But what about the lowly merchant seaman? He knows all about latitude and longitude. A couple millenia before, the Phoenecians were familiar with latitude navigation too.

    There was that pagan Greek Eratosthenes, two centuries before the coming of our Lord, who measured angles of the sun and determined the circumference of the earth. His results, with crude instruments, ended up being within 10-11% of what those NASA conspirators come up with.

    Maybe we should just bury the work of that 10th century Muslim astronomer, Al Biruni. He was part of the conspiracy too. He actually measured the heights of mountains from various distances using (satanic?) trigonometry. Later he measured the angle of the north star from different locations a known distance apart. He came up with a much closer estimate of the earth's circumference.

    But it would be hard to ignore the expansive history of navies from all nations. Navigators from the traders to Solomon right up to present container ships all had working, daily, practical knowledge that the earth is a sphere. Otherwise, how would our generation's smart phones and game widgets get here from China?

    Oops. I spent more time on the subject than I would normally think it deserves....
     
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  12. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Among Fringe groups..
     
  13. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    This is like the groups that support that there never was a man on the moon, as was down in a Hollywood back lot somewhere.
     
  14. Jack K

    Jack K Puritan Board Professor

    A conspiracy to hide a flat earth would require millions of people to be in on the ruse, and would be impossible to maintain. Besides, only a simplistic and sloppy interpretation of the Bible would lead to the conclusion that the Bible insists, against all evidence to the contrary, that the earth is flat. The Bible doesn't intend to say this, just as I don't intend to say the earth is motionless if I remark that I saw the sun "rise" this morning.
     
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  15. Ask Mr. Religion

    Ask Mr. Religion Flatly Unflappable

    Indeed. Yours is my usual retort to the flat earthers. To believe in something that requires a massive conspiracy is afoot should give one pause.

    I and my team actually designed the architecture of the software that enabled communications with earthbound stations and mobile phones from low earth orbiting satellites (Iridium) at Motorola. The orbital mechanics of the software would have failed given a flat earth view. Required reading for my team, which I also taught to the new engineers, if anyone is interested:
    http://ge.tt/3ew2rfo2

    When I offer that up as irrefutable evidence, I am met with "Well, you, despite your Christianity, must have been in on the conspiracy and are just lying to keep up pretenses" or...those that were "in on the conspiracy" actually modified the software before it was integrated with the satellite and earth stations. If the reader knows anything about software and hardware development/integration, just imagine what it would take for that last bit to be pulled off. Sigh.

    In our modern age where everyone seems to want attention, Wikileaks(!), it appears to me that someone with irrefutable knowledge about this conspiracy would have already made the facts known to gain the fame that would come from it.
     
  16. LilyG

    LilyG Puritan Board Freshman

    Come over here and tell my aerospace engineer husband that the earth is flat. ;-)

    Or our SpaceX friend!
     
  17. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Most defenses of flat earth come from Hollywood celebrities who unironically believe that.

    Tila Tequila
    Kyrie irving
    Hip hop artist B.o.B. While I am against flat earth, he did debate Neil de Grasse Tyson, so I was cheering for him in that one.
    Shaquille O'Neal
     
  18. Southern Presbyterian

    Southern Presbyterian Moderator Staff Member

    “Incompetence is a better explanation than conspiracy in most human activity.”

    - Peter Bergen

    "There is only one conspiracy and that is to make everyone believe that everything is a conspiracy."

    -Me
     
  19. Martin

    Martin Puritan Board Freshman

    Isaiah 40:22
    [22]It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

    This verse teaches that God is above the circle (compass, like the face of a compass) of the earth and that the heavens are spread above the earth like a tent.

    Joshua 10:12-13
    [12]Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
    [13]And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

    How would people who believe that the sun is stationary and that the earth spins and moves around it deal with this passage? It clearly says that the sun and moon stood still to prolong the day, implying that the earth indeed is not moving. This story in Joshua is impossible if one believes that the earth spins to make night and day.

    Genesis 1:6-7
    [6]And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
    [7]And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    The water below is the same as the water above. This teaches that the oceans and such were formed and that God placed a firmament to separate some of the same water to be up above us. That is why we see a blue sky, because there is water above us. This is also how God opened the windows of heaven to flood the earth. Where is heaven? Right up above us through the firmament. Where did Jesus, Elijah, and Enoch go? Did they go light years and light years away? No they passed right above us into heaven. NASA and "scientists" teach that man is an insignificant speck and their work is dedicated to antagonizing the scriptures and God the Creator.
     
  20. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Check out post #2.
     
  21. Martin

    Martin Puritan Board Freshman

    The scripture doesn't say that they appeared to stand still, it says that they did stand still.

    1 Samuel 14:9
    [9]If they say thus unto us, Tarry (same word used for when the sun "stood") until we come to you; then we will stand still in our place, and will not go up unto them.

    Genesis 18:22
    [22]And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood (same word describing the moon "staying") yet before the LORD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2018
  22. TylerRay

    TylerRay Puritan Board Senior

    Yeah, I use that kind of language, too. It would be a gross misrepresentation of my meaning, however, if someone contended that I actually believe the sun rises and sets.

    As far as the wooden hermeneutic you're using, Psalm 98 talks about the floods clapping their hands and the mountains being joyful. I suppose you take those statements at face value as well?
     
  23. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    What does this have to do with flat earth?

    Geocentricism is a different topic altogether. We're just talking about the shape of the Earth as observed, in one way or another, by millions throughout history.
     
  24. Martin

    Martin Puritan Board Freshman

    I commented on some other things that are usually associated with flat earth teaching. I apologize for moving away from the question asked in the OP and will refrain from commenting on these other topics.
     
  25. lynnie

    lynnie Puritan Board Senior

    I had a flat earth relative. They sent me links.

    The actual theory is very well laid out and the maps and sun and day and night and so forth all works. It is impressive, so don't think they are dumb. They can be very very smart.

    It does require the belief that NASA and space shuttles and the space station are all a lie.

    My personal response is/was that Grandpop was a navigator in WW11. Coming back to England on a bombing run in Germany, they hit pea soup fog. Grand pop pulled out his slide rule, and doing trigonometry based on a spherical ball, measuring time and speed, at a certain moment he said "drop" and they dropped through the impenetrable fog until right before them were the lights of the runway.

    Grandpop was admittedly a math genius and my hub inherited it, as well as a few kids. Anyway, it was the talk of the bombing group and the general asked him to be his personal navigator. His best buddy got shot down later on his old plane, and if the world was flat grandpop would have never done his great foggy deed and would be dead.

    So anyway, forget arguing about NASA and conspiracy. You need to pull up the old WW11 stories and the way the navigators figured locations based on a sphere. They can't refute that. You can't measure flat earth straight lines over a curve and get it right.

    BTW I am a geocentrist. Two very different subjects.
     
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  26. VictorBravo

    VictorBravo Administrator Staff Member

    Thanks. The reason I jumped on it was exactly that: "usually associated with flat earth teaching..."

    Just trying to maintain precision. There are different sorts of epistemological arguments involved among the topics.

    Carry on....
     
  27. Von

    Von Puritan Board Freshman

    Wooden biblical literalism MEETS anti-authoritarian conspiracy-loving people.
     
  28. Ben Zartman

    Ben Zartman Puritan Board Freshman

    What I don't understand is how conspiracy theorists think that a spherical earth would shake anyone's faith in God. Is He more likely to have created a cookie shape than a grapefruit shape? Why does the shape of the earth enter into the question of whether there's a God?

    For what it's worth, being a seafaring man and having navigated both by means of celestial bodies and of satellites, I can testify that navigation as we use it would not work if the earth were not spherical (an oblate spheroid, to be precise, which just means: an imprecise sphere).
     
  29. Edward

    Edward Puritan Board Doctor

    Probably.

    Maybe.

    But neither would provide evidence to support an outlandish theory that the earth is flat.
     
  30. chuckd

    chuckd Puritan Board Sophomore

    The earth appears to rise and set from man's fixed position on the surface of the sun. They are just models. No one can say for sure which is correct. The biblical model, however, is geocentrism.
     
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