Does the Spirit Make You Born Again After you are a believer or before

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DonP

Puritan Board Junior
Some were saying we needed some threads where we all can agree instead of debate minutia and support people newer to the Doctrines of Grace who may be struggling with these teachings and needing to learn how to see them in scripture or defend them from scripture.

Also how we understand the common objections. rational or scriptures.

So if you would like to share struggles you had or how yo came to understand the confusion or scriptures that cleared things up for you and you have helped others with, Please Post

I will start. For me I always thought I had to receive Jesus and ask for forgiveness and repent of my sin and ask Him to be Lord of my life then the Spirit would give me the new birth and apply the saving work of Christ to me.

When I 1st heard of total depravity in that sense Rom 3:10-12
"There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
And understood that I would never have sought God unless the Spirit first moved me to, I couldn't do good. Seeking God or repenting and believing would have been good, I realized it was god who had to convert me and give me a new birth of a new nature that could understand spiritual things and believe and repent.
John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

Acts 16:14The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. NKJV

Then the verse made sense John 3:'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

The Spirit first has to give me a new birth and faith to believe. so it is all of grace, not of my will.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, NKJV

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

And the Spirit gave me this gift of a new nature that made me willing to believe and desire to do good, please God, so I could obey and understand spiritual things like His word.

So now I get it that it was all of grace, Amazing Grace, gifted to me 1st and received in me and began producing fruit. Or else I would never have really sought God or believed. I was a sinner and selfish. WOW what an eye opener.
Then I began to search the scriptures to understand all of the verses that seemed to be contrary until I got a new perspective on what they could mean.
Who else found a new meaning to verses they once understood differently
 
Here is another passage I see as significant in that regard:

Rom 8:8-9 "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."

If one is not indwelt by the Spirit, he is "in the flesh" -- i.e. a natural unregenerate fallen man. If the unregenerate (in the flesh) man could exercise saving faith, would that not be pleasing to God?? Certainly. But this passage makes it perfectly clear that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. They are unable to do so.

Therefore the Spirit must regenerate us so that we may believe, which we then invariably, infallibly, and immediately do. We do the believing, God does not believe for us, but it is only through the sovereign regenerating resurrecting power of His Spirit that we do.

:2cents:
 
Here is another passage I see as significant in that regard:

Rom 8:8-9 "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God. You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."

If one is not indwelt by the Spirit, he is "in the flesh" -- i.e. the natural unregenerate fallen man. If the unregenerate (in the flesh) man could exercise saving faith, would that not be pleasing to God?? Certainly so. But this passage makes it perfectly clear that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. They are unable to do so.

Therefore the Spirit must regenerate us so that we may believe, which we then invariably, infallibly, and immediately do. We do the believing, God does not believe for us, but it is only through the regenerating resurrecting power of His Spirit that we do.

:2cents:

Wait, If I can't repent then how can God hold me responsible?
I thought I was not willing to come to Him because of my sin nature and that is why I am accountable?

I guess if my nature is unwilling, and never will be willing, in one sense I can't. But it seems if we need to be careful with ability and willingness?

But I agree either way If the Spirit doesn't give me a new nature and faith I will never believe .
John 5:40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
NKJV

Ps 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, KJV

Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. NKJV
 
Wait, If I can't repent then how can God hold me responsible?
I thought I was not willing to come to Him because of my sin nature and that is why I am accountable?

Contrary to popular opinion, responsibility does not imply ability. Biblical responsibility before God results from duty and privilege -- not our presumed ability to please him.

I guess if my nature is unwilling, and never will be willing, in one sense I can't. But it seems if we need to be careful with ability and willingness?

A man cannot rise above his sin nature. Therefore you are correct, he can't please God. The text specifically says he "cannot", the Greek is emphatic that he is "not able."
 
Then this must be the answer to how could God be just and still hold us responsible
Rom 9:14-24

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? NKJV

But this reduces us to no more than dust. Oh yeah Ps 103:14 For He knows our frame;
He remembers that we are dust. NKJV
 
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.
 
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.

Yes that sounds very clear and accurate to me. Moral being their will is limited to their sin nature. So they have a free will, but it is only free within the limits of its nature.
As we are not able to fly because we do not have the nature of a bird and no matter how much our free will would like to swim like a fish under water for a long time we must come up for air,

So our will is not totally free to do anything. But free to sin and we can't please God or do any spiritual good; though we can do relative good in this life. Like choose to not murder or steal, choose to be kind to someone.
 
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.

Interesting, but I don't think that argument does justice to the passages that refer to the unregenerate as 'dead'. A dead man cannot breathe, not just because he doesn't want to, but because he does not have the ability.

I like the account of Lazarus in John 11. He was dead. How could he have answered Jesus' call to "come out" if he hadn't first been made alive by the Holy Spirit?
 
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.

Interesting, but I don't think that argument does justice to the passages that refer to the unregenerate as 'dead'. A dead man cannot breathe, not just because he doesn't want to, but because he does not have the ability.

I like the account of Lazarus in John 11. He was dead. How could he have answered Jesus' call to "come out" if he hadn't first been made alive by the Holy Spirit?

Stimulating thinking. And I love Ezekiel Preaching to the not just dead but Dry bones. And God makes them alive and breathes into them.
But these are symbols and I am not sure we take them precisely literally. More figuratively. After all an unregenerate man is not dead he is breathing.
So the only dead thing is his ability to will to do good. And it is as good as dead. But it will not, so it is willing, it is willing not to come to Christ and that is why it can not.
Even if it just can not, the person is still alive so what do you mean by dead?

What am I missing?
 
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.

Interesting, but I don't think that argument does justice to the passages that refer to the unregenerate as 'dead'. A dead man cannot breathe, not just because he doesn't want to, but because he does not have the ability.

I like the account of Lazarus in John 11. He was dead. How could he have answered Jesus' call to "come out" if he hadn't first been made alive by the Holy Spirit?

Stimulating thinking. And I love Ezekiel Preaching to the not just dead but Dry bones. And God makes them alive and breathes into them.
But these are symbols and I am not sure we take them precisely literally. More figuratively. After all an unregenerate man is not dead he is breathing.
So the only dead thing is his ability to will to do good. And it is as good as dead. But it will not, so it is willing, it is willing not to come to Christ and that is why it can not.
Even if it just can not, the person is still alive so what do you mean by dead?

What am I missing?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...

If you aint dead, you aint been quickened.
 
Interesting, but I don't think that argument does justice to the passages that refer to the unregenerate as 'dead'. A dead man cannot breathe, not just because he doesn't want to, but because he does not have the ability.

I like the account of Lazarus in John 11. He was dead. How could he have answered Jesus' call to "come out" if he hadn't first been made alive by the Holy Spirit?

Stimulating thinking. And I love Ezekiel Preaching to the not just dead but Dry bones. And God makes them alive and breathes into them.
But these are symbols and I am not sure we take them precisely literally. More figuratively. After all an unregenerate man is not dead he is breathing.
So the only dead thing is his ability to will to do good. And it is as good as dead. But it will not, so it is willing, it is willing not to come to Christ and that is why it can not.
Even if it just can not, the person is still alive so what do you mean by dead?

What am I missing?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...

If you aint dead, you aint been quickened.

Unresponsive. More symbolic language. Shows the degree to which it is impaired, completely unable but what part?
The body or physical is not dead. what is dead?
 
Stimulating thinking. And I love Ezekiel Preaching to the not just dead but Dry bones. And God makes them alive and breathes into them.
But these are symbols and I am not sure we take them precisely literally. More figuratively. After all an unregenerate man is not dead he is breathing.
So the only dead thing is his ability to will to do good. And it is as good as dead. But it will not, so it is willing, it is willing not to come to Christ and that is why it can not.
Even if it just can not, the person is still alive so what do you mean by dead?

What am I missing?
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins...

If you aint dead, you aint been quickened.

Unresponsive. More symbolic language. Shows the degree to which it is impaired, completely unable but what part?
The body or physical is not dead. what is dead?

Your thread title was this: "Does the Spirit Make You Born Again After you are a believer or before?"

We aren't talking about physical death, we are talking about spiritual death.
 
In these discussions, we can't divorce talk of ability from man as created. Man was created by God upright and with the ability to fulfill all righteousness; and in such a state was he given the law, and the command to fulfill it -- which law included the command that obey all which God should declare necessary (either then, or later). The fact that man is no unable to respond to God's call is through his own fault.

As I posted once in another thread:
Here is an analogy: If you are my son, and I tell you that you must take my shirt to the dry cleaner today, you are responsible for this. If, subsequent to my command, you break into my liquor cabinet and get drunk (and are thus unable to drive to the laundromat), your inability (which is caused by your own wrongdoing) certainly doesn't make you any less responsible for doing what I have required of you. You will certainly still get in trouble when I get home for not doing as I commanded (for naturally, you were able: you simply made yourself unable).
 
Your thread title was this: "Does the Spirit Make You Born Again After you are a believer or before?"

We aren't talking about physical death, we are talking about spiritual death.


Ok so is it his spirit that is dead or what?

But the physical is where you started out. The quote was about the physical and moral and his moral was unable and I thought you said not enough he is dead.

Here it is
Originally Posted by KMK View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaywardNowHome View Post
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.

KMK
Interesting, but I don't think that argument does justice to the passages that refer to the unregenerate as 'dead'. A dead man cannot breathe, not just because he doesn't want to, but because he does not have the ability.

I like the account of Lazarus in John 11. He was dead. How could he have answered Jesus' call to "come out" if he hadn't first been made alive by the Holy Spirit?
 
I'm sorry, I was using the story of Lazarus as a word picture to support the passages of Scripture that explicitly state that regeneration involves going from death to life, not merely a transformation of the will.
 
Interesting, but I don't think that argument does justice to the passages that refer to the unregenerate as 'dead'. A dead man cannot breathe, not just because he doesn't want to, but because he does not have the ability.

I like the account of Lazarus in John 11. He was dead. How could he have answered Jesus' call to "come out" if he hadn't first been made alive by the Holy Spirit?

Ken, this is a good point. But if we remember the cause of man's moral inability, I think your valid objection might not be necessary to raise:

Man's moral inability does not serve to diminish the punitive causality of this inability: it simply serves to qualify and explain how man is bound. It, in fact, adds to his culpability: it's purpose is simply to show that it is not the case that man wants to do good, but can't because of an evil, sadistic God. His moral inability to give heed to God's word is a part of his death from Genesis. He physically can't, because he is dead; this spiritual deadness involves a will wholly set against God.

If we say that spiritual death is an alienation from and an aversion to God, then I think you and Joel (WaywardNowHome) are on the same page.
 
I think I should clear up something about what I said earlier. When I contrasted moral inability to physical inability, I did not mean 'physical' to mean something bodily or non-spiritual. Rather, I meant 'physical' in the sense that some force is actively disallowing you from doing what you will. So in my earlier post, I describe the inability for man to come to God as moral rather than physical. In other words, an unregenerate man does not will to come to God due to his spiritual state of death. His inability is not caused by some outside, active force preventing him from coming to God, even if he wills.

I hope that cleared it up. Prufrock's analogy is exactly what I wanted to say in different words. My fault for bad diction.

----- EDIT -----

I'm sorry, I was using the story of Lazarus as a word picture to support the passages of Scripture that explicitly state that regeneration involves going from death to life, not merely a transformation of the will.

Doesn't the term 'regeneration' pertain to the destroyed will of the sinner? I was under the impression that the will is what is regenerated and that is what brings a man across the line separating spiritual death from life. In 2 Corinthians 5:17, the believer is a new creation because he is recreated, now having the will (and therefore moral ability) to please and honor and glorify God.
 
Who else found a new meaning to verses they once understood differently

I had thought I repented on my own after He called me until reading these verses and seeing that even my repenting was granted by Him:

2 Tim 2:25...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, 'Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
 
My theology is not as great as some (most (all)) of you, but my understanding is that man's inability to please God or repent or believe is a moral inability rather than a physical inability. The unregenerate cannot believe because they will not believe. It is not as if the unregenerate are trying with all their might to believe but can't due to a physical inability. Rather, they cannot because they love their sin so absolutely that they will not leave it.

They are still held responsible and God remains just in their condemnation.

Good point. The sinners doesn't believe because there is some physical defect preventing them but because they don't want to. Adam didn't die physically on the day he ate the fruit of the forbidden tree, but he did die spiritually.
 
Arthur Pink commented on the inability of man in this way,

When we speak of the sinners inability, we do not mean that if he desired to come to Christ he lacks the necessary power (or capacity) to do so. No; the fact is that the sinner’s inability or absence of power is itself due to a lack of willingness to come to Christ, and this lack of willingness is the fruit of a depraved heart. (The Sovereignty of God, Baker, p. 187)

In John 5:40 we are told, “You will not come that you may have life,”

In John 6:44 we are told, “no one can come unless the Father draws him.”

Are these verses contradictory? No. From a theological perspective, man cannot come; from a manward perspective, he most certainly will not come, if left to himself.

I am enjoying the thread. Good comments by all.
 
Who else found a new meaning to verses they once understood differently

I had thought I repented on my own after He called me until reading these verses and seeing that even my repenting was granted by Him:

2 Tim 2:25...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth.
Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, 'Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
Rom 2:4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

Great verses, so what caused the shift in thinking?
 
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