Eagerly Awaiting Christ

[Steve Owen]

It seems that the New Testament church was expecting and eagerly awaiting the return of The Lord Jesus Christ. For instance:-

1Cor 1:7. 'So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ.'

1Cor 16:22. 'O Lord, come!'

Phil 3:20. 'For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we eagerly wait for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.'

1Thes 1:9-10. '....and how you turned to God from idols, to seve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven.'

2Tim 4:8. 'Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord....will give me on that day, and not to me only but to all who have loved His appearing.'

Titus 2:13. 'Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.'

Heb 9:28. 'To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time apart from sin, for salvation.'

2Peter 3:12. 'Looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.'

Rev 22:20. 'He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!'

Clearly the NT Church was expecting Christ to return at any time.
My purpose in listing these texts is to ask if we ought not to be awaiting the Lord's return with equal eagerness; and also to suggest that if our eschatology prevents us from expecting His imminent return, perhaps it is likely to be wrong.

Grace & Peace,

Martin

[Edited on 8-29-2005 by Martin Marprelate]

[Edited on 8-29-2005 by Martin Marprelate]

[Edited on 8-29-2005 by Martin Marprelate]

 

[Bladestunner316]

I cant wait. Nothing can prepare you for it. Except the Holy Spirit.

Blade

 

[just_grace]

I was thinking earlier about this, especially after the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of Pompeii by the eruption of Vesuvius.

Christians must have really been on the lookout

Yet with God one day and a thousand years are the same, so what if He waits a week or two or even a few days

Act 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by his own authority.

Keep sober and alert brothers and sisters for you know not what time our Lord is coming back!

 

[Scott Bushey]

Ditto to the above; In my young 47 years, I have decided that it is much easier to die than live! I have to remind myself, His will be done.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by Paul manata
if you think Christ may return at any second then you must believe that:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

It is interesting how the two polars (immenancy and full-preterism) actually come together; or even, that they share similar arguments.

 

[wsw201]

From WCF Chapter 33.3

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by wsw201
From WCF Chapter 33.3

III. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin; and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity: so will he have that day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come; and may be ever prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus, come quickly, Amen.

Sure, be always watchful and live as a citizen of heaven, but Paul also told us that Christ must reign until all enemies have been put under his feet. I don't think Christ will come back soon--there are a lot more enemies waiting to be conquered.

 

[just_grace]

New smiley...

Originally posted by Paul manata
if you think Christ may return at any second then you must believe that:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

Trying to find a smiley that expresses 'spanner in the works'

Considering Christ's words that no-one but God knows the end and that we should concentrate on witnessing for Him I sometimes wonder why people just don't do that and instead muse upon things that distract us from what we should be doing.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by just_grace

Originally posted by Paul manata
if you think Christ may return at any second then you must believe that:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

Trying to find a smiley that expresses 'spanner in the works'

Considering Christ's words that no-one but God knows the end and that we should concentrate on witnessing for Him I sometimes wonder why people just don't do that and instead muse upon things that distract us from what we should be doing.

Then that puts the starter of this thread in jeopardy (and anyone who agreed with him!). Furthermore, Christ warned his disciples to know the signs of the time. Postmillennialism teaches precisely the opposite of "figuring out what's about to happen." Our God gave us a command to take over the world, and that is what we are occupied with.

 

[wsw201]

Then that puts the starter of this thread in jeopardy (and anyone who agreed with him!). Furthermore, Christ warned his disciples to know the signs of the time. Postmillennialism teaches precisely the opposite of "figuring out what's about to happen." Our God gave us a command to take over the world, and that is what we are occupied with.

Taking over the world? I guess this is the basic issue regarding Postmills.

But considering Paul's list:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

It certainly seems like Postmills are trying to "figure" something out!

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by wsw201

Then that puts the starter of this thread in jeopardy (and anyone who agreed with him!). Furthermore, Christ warned his disciples to know the signs of the time. Postmillennialism teaches precisely the opposite of "figuring out what's about to happen." Our God gave us a command to take over the world, and that is what we are occupied with.

Taking over the world? I guess this is the basic issue regarding Postmills.

But considering Paul's list:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

It certainly seems like Postmills are trying to "figure" something out!

Probably a good thing we are--otherwise the immanent view is eerily close to full preterism.

 

[Peter]

Christ's message to eagerly wait and be prepared for his coming applies equally to all of us because for those who do not live to experience Christ's literal physical coming death is certain though its timing is not.

[Edited on 8-30-2005 by Peter]

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by wsw201

Then that puts the starter of this thread in jeopardy (and anyone who agreed with him!). Furthermore, Christ warned his disciples to know the signs of the time. Postmillennialism teaches precisely the opposite of "figuring out what's about to happen." Our God gave us a command to take over the world, and that is what we are occupied with.

Taking over the world? I guess this is the basic issue regarding Postmills.

But considering Paul's list:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

It certainly seems like Postmills are trying to "figure" something out!

Probably a good thing we are--otherwise the immanent view is eerily close to full preterism.

How do you figure that this immanent view is eerily close to full preterism?

In figuring out Paul's list, how will we know when all these have happened so Christ can come back? Read the newspaper?

 

[RamistThomist]

To requote Paul M. :

if you think Christ may return at any second then you must believe that:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

Full preterism believes all of the above.

 

[Anton Bruckner]

Hi Jacob you still located in Mississipi? If so, how did the storm treat you? Hope you and your family are ok.

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by Draught Horse
To requote Paul M. :

if you think Christ may return at any second then you must believe that:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

Full preterism believes all of the above.

True, but they also believe that he came back in 70 AD. Besides, an imminent view of Christ's return could say that:

1. The great commission could be fulfilled at any moment, whenever the last of the elect are brought in.

2. The fullness of the Gentiles could also happen at any time.

3. We are in the millennium, but it also could end at anytime.

4. Satan is bound but could be loosed at anytime.

5. The Great Apostasy could very well be going on right now and could also come to complete fulfillment at any time.

Basically an imminent view of Christ's return does not set a particular "time table" that Christ must go by ala taking over the world before he can return.

 

[Peter]

1. The great commission says to make the nations disciples not just a representative smattering from every nation.

2. We're not in the millennium yet (perhaps the topic of another thread)

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by Peter
1. The great commission says to make the nations disciples not just a representative smattering from every nation.

2. We're not in the millennium yet (perhaps the topic of another thread)

Agree. These are topics for another thread.

 

[Steve Owen]

Originally posted by Paul manata
if you think Christ may return at any second then you must believe that:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

Acts 1:7. 'And He said to them, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority.'

I do not know if the great Commission is about to be fulfilled and the fulness of the Gentiles about to be brought in. I only observe that with the advent of Radio Ministry, there can be few people groups where the Gospel hasn't reached at all. I also note Col 1:23b. Perhaps the Lord measures these things differently.

Nor do I know if 'Satan's little season' has begun and if he has been loosed to deceive the nations. I only observe that there is a lot of religious deception going on, increasing intolerance and persecution of Christians, and more martyrdoms than in the times of the worst Emperors or the Spanish Inquisition.

"Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Luke 12:40).

Grace & Peace,

Martin

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

There could be another 10,000 years in my opinion, but I eagerly await being with the Lord.

 

[Steve Owen]

Originally posted by Paul manata

Anyway, I don't need to post anymore in this thread, my position is air tight:

Thank you for your thoughts, Paul. It would have been interesting to know your understanding of some of the Scripture that I quoted.

Grace & Peace,

Martin

 

[just_grace]

Air tight...

Originally posted by Paul manata
You kept referring to those things as future. I( said if Christ returned in one second then those things would be PAST. So, if you think Christ could return on ONE SECOND then you must say that we are not in the millennium, the great commission HAS BEEN fulfilled, the gentiles HAVE BEEN brought in, satan "little season" HAS BEEN finished, the final battle HAS HAPPENED.

Anyway, I don't need to post anymore in this thread, my position is air tight: if you think that Christ could return in ONE SECOND then you must, by necessity, say those things HAVE happened. That's not necessarily a refutation of the immanent return theory, it's just asking you to be fully consistent, that's all.

Don't make me laugh!

I have not even yet started to think about this post...

 

[RamistThomist]

Whoa,
The force of Paul's argument just hit me.
I had to reread it a few times.

[Edited on 8--31-05 by Draught Horse]

 

[WrittenFromUtopia]

Originally posted by Draught Horse
Whoa,
The force of Paul's argument just hit me.
I had to reread it a few times.

[Edited on 8--31-05 by Draught Horse]

 

[Steve Owen]

Originally posted by Paul manata
You kept referring to those things as future. I( said if Christ returned in one second then those things would be PAST. So, if you think Christ could return on ONE SECOND then you must say that we are not in the millennium, the great commission HAS BEEN fulfilled, the gentiles HAVE BEEN brought in, satan "little season" HAS BEEN finished, the final battle HAS HAPPENED.

Anyway, I don't need to post anymore in this thread, my position is air tight: if you think that Christ could return in ONE SECOND then you must, by necessity, say those things HAVE happened. That's not necessarily a refutation of the immanent return theory, it's just asking you to be fully consistent, that's all.

I think we all have to be very cautious about these things, but I'm not sure you're right here. The reason I spoke about the Great Commission and the bringing in of the Gentiles as being future is that if they were past, I think the Lord would have come already. There won't be an announcement in the newspapers saying, "Great Commission complete; Return of Lord imminent!" The first we shall know of it will be when the clouds part to reveal Him.

Also, it doesn't seem to me that Satan will be crushed before Christ's return. '...Whom the Lord will consume....and destroy with the brightness of His coming' (2Thes 2:8 ). I take that to mean that Satan will be destroyed when Christ returns, not before.

The whole point is that the return will be without previous warning. 'For you yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them' (1Thes 5:2-3 ). There will be tribulation for Christians (as there is right now in many parts of the world), but non-Christians may not even notice it.

Grace & Peace,

Martin

[Edited on 8-31-2005 by Martin Marprelate]

 

[wsw201]

Everyone, amills included, (WSC students, teachers, et al.) agree with me on this point. It is logically inexscapable. This is not a refutation of the immanent return theory, but just asking them to be consistent. If you *seriously* believe that Jesus could return in ONE second, then you *must,* by the teaching of Scritpure (esp. Rev 20), *seriously* think that we are not in the millennium anymore, the great commission is over, the gentiles have been brought in, satan has been loosed to deceive the nations, he has gathered the nations for battle (note, according to Rev 20 this takes place AFTER the millennium, so don;t say that this is happening NOW unless you want to say we are not in the millennium NOW), the enemies have been put under Christ's feet, he handed the keys over to the Father, and THEN comes the end.

I seriously believe that Christ could and can return in "ONE" second. In fact I think he could return in a twinkling of an eye! In your original post you said "at ANY SECOND". The question is "which second"? Maybe you need to rephrase your comment to say "in the NEXT second". And no I don't think Christ is coming back in the next second, since by now that second has past.

P.S. Do you think that some thought a immanent return was near in the NT times because Jesus promised that he would come back IN THAT GENERATION?

No I don't.

P.P.S. Show where I know THE HOUR of Christ's return? Also, how is it unscriptural for me to use SCRIPTURE'S clues on what will happen before Christ returns? How am I trying to "know the hour?" Scripture tells us these things. I seriously confused. I use verses from the Bible telling us what will happen before Christ returns and I get accused of "trying to know the hour?" To me, at least, that accusation is absurd.

I don't know if you are directing this at me or not. But since I have not accused you of anything, I guess its not.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by wsw201

P.S. Do you think that some thought a immanent return was near in the NT times because Jesus promised that he would come back IN THAT GENERATION?

No I don't.

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Every time in the gospels the phrase "this generation" occurs it means the present generation.

 

[wsw201]

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by wsw201

P.S. Do you think that some thought a immanent return was near in the NT times because Jesus promised that he would come back IN THAT GENERATION?

No I don't.

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Every time in the gospels the phrase "this generation" occurs it means the present generation.

First you would need to show that the 1st century church was looking for Christ's return in judgment on Israel in 70 AD vs His final return.

I don't disagree that "that generation" saw the destruction of Jerusalem that was predicted in the first part of Matt 24. The question is whether the phrase "that generation" can only refer to the generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem or to a generation to come that will see all of Matt 24 fulfilled, not just typologically as "that generation" did, with the second coming.

 

[RamistThomist]

Originally posted by wsw201

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by wsw201

P.S. Do you think that some thought a immanent return was near in the NT times because Jesus promised that he would come back IN THAT GENERATION?

No I don't.

Matthew 24:34
Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

Every time in the gospels the phrase "this generation" occurs it means the present generation.

First you would need to show that the 1st century church was looking for Christ's return in judgment on Israel in 70 AD vs His final return.

I don't disagree that "that generation" saw the destruction of Jerusalem that was predicted in the first part of Matt 24. The question is whether the phrase "that generation" can only refer to the generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem or to a generation to come that will see all of Matt 24 fulfilled, not just typologically as "that generation" did, with the second coming.

I will delay answer to the first question for a while--hopefully in my other responses an answer will come forth. I had an answer but I am rethinking how I would say it.

Can the phrase "this generation" refer also to another generation while also referring to "this generation"? I don't think so; every time it is used in the gospels it refers to the present generation.

 

[just_grace]

Apples of Gold...

Originally posted by wsw201

Originally posted by Draught Horse

Originally posted by wsw201

Then that puts the starter of this thread in jeopardy (and anyone who agreed with him!). Furthermore, Christ warned his disciples to know the signs of the time. Postmillennialism teaches precisely the opposite of "figuring out what's about to happen." Our God gave us a command to take over the world, and that is what we are occupied with.

Taking over the world? I guess this is the basic issue regarding Postmills.

But considering Paul's list:

1) The great commission has been fulfilled

2) The fulness of the gentiles brought in

3) we are not in the millennium now

4) Satan has already been bound, then loosed, then finally crushed

5) the final apostacy has occured

It certainly seems like Postmills are trying to "figure" something out!

Probably a good thing we are--otherwise the immanent view is eerily close to full preterism.

How do you figure that this immanent view is eerily close to full preterism?

In figuring out Paul's list, how will we know when all these have happened so Christ can come back? Read the newspaper?

Très bien dit...