Eating out Lord's Day, scripture and confession

[Scott1]

London Baptist Confession of Faith
Chapter 22
Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day

8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations, but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.

Given that the Westminster and London Baptist Confession of Faith summarize the doctrine of Scripture the same way in relation to keeping the Sabbath, what is your practical application with regard to eating meals outside your home?

Which Lord’s Day practice best represents your understanding of what is required by Scripture, and by derivation, your Confession?

 

[Theognome]

I am not comfortable making someone do non-essential vocational work on the Lord's Day, whether they are believers or not. If we're traveling, we pack a cooler.

Theognome

 

[Backwoods Presbyterian]

Why would "focusing on God's thoughts and words" while violating the Sabbath make it Ok?

 

[Blueridge Believer]

Making some poor sinner work for me on the sabbath is a no-no.

 

[Scott1]

Why would "focusing on God's thoughts and words" while violating the Sabbath make it Ok?

I'm not convinced this is biblically (or confessionally) correct, but this might be a way of looking at it:

8._____ The sabbath is then kept holy unto the Lord, when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering their common affairs aforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all day, from their own works, words and thoughts, about their worldly employment and recreations,
the focus must not be on work, sports, entertaining oneself, etc. That would mean conversation about those things as well as in one's mind

but are also taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity
Since eating or food preparation is not prohibited per se and is in fact reasonably necessary

and mercy.
It might be merciful to feed someone outside (within context of focusing on the Lord)

 

[Tripel]

What if I take an exception to the WCF regarding the Sabbath? Should I abstain from the poll?

 

[kvanlaan]

As a general rule, we don't. If we are on vacation, we might eat out once on a Sunday but try to eat in the two other meals.

 

[Scott1]

What if I take an exception to the WCF regarding the Sabbath? Should I abstain from the poll?

No,

options 4 or 6 are available but please explain so others may evaluate

 

[Zenas]

Eating out is not ordinarily prohibited if one focuses on God (thoughts and words) while doing it.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, 'Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.' But you say, 'If a man tells his father or his mother, "Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban"' (that is, given to God)— then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."

 

[Scott1]

Zenas
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.

Yes,
question though.

The work of food preparation, because the work is for an underlying necessity that cannot reasonably, ordinarily be done at another time (people ordinarily need to eat 3 times per day) is not prohibited per se, is it?

Matthew 12

1At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.

Isn't this really food preparation? (not necessarily arguing it is, only asking)

 

[Zenas]

While food preparation is a necessity, is it a necessity that a man or maid servant do it for you?

 

[HanleyBri]

I assume you are referring to restaurants.

The previous congregation where I was a member of had a tradition of going out to eat after Sunday morning worship. When we first visited the church we were invited to lunch, but they did not mention that it was at a restaurant. When we pulled into a restaurant, I was shocked and extremely disappointed, that those which called themselves reformed could behave in such a way.

Yes - I have a big problem with the use of restaurants on the Lord's Day, when there is an alternate means of nourishment. I worked in the food service industry at the time I was saved. I lost my job - because I refused to work on Sunday. I was willing to lose my job to be faithful to God - and it's sickening to hear of Christians frequenting restaurants unnecessarily. Sunday is the big day for restaurants and the workers are often forced to work Sunday shifts.

The Fifth Commandment is not only for the individual - but covers the servants. Restaurant works are today’s servants and instead of giving them the day off and allow them a proper rest - we treat them like second class citizens. We also make the day one of the most profitable days to work. One of the reasons it is such a big day is because 'Christians' go out to lunch. Just try inviting someone that works in the restaurant industry, to church on Sunday - and you know what they will tell you. They can't because they don't want to miss their best day of the week.

The biggest reason that I've heard regarding Christians going to a restaurant is travelling. Which granted can be a problem. However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there has been no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation or planning goes a long way.

 

[raekwon]

What exactly qualifies as "focusing on God in thought and word" in this context? Like, would one have to talk about scripture or the sermon they'd just heard . . . or would something less "explicit", such as enjoying fellowship with Christian brothers and sisters with thankfulness in our hearts to God count as well?

 

[OPC'n]

I picked number two for this reason: if I go on vacation, I'm not going to refrain from sleeping in my hotel room in order to keep someone from working on the Sabbath and I cannot pack food in a cooler which would last that long. Another example is if you go on a cruise. You're sort of stuck on where you sleep and eat.

 

[Scott1]

HanleyBri
I lost my job - because I refused to work on Sunday

I admire the faithfulness God has given you. I believe I too have lost a job, or at least not been considered for one because of sabbath issues. (But God is faithful and provides, maybe something even better in time)

Just try inviting someone that works, in the restaurant industry, to church on Sunday - and you know what they will tell you. They can't because they don't want to miss their best day of the week.

That's a good point. And someone who worked in that industry who became a Christian would need to stop working there Lord's Day.

The biggest reason that I've heard regarding Christians going to a restaurant is travelling. Which granted can be a problem. However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there was no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation goes a long way.

And I appreciate your carefulness in answer. That's why the poll says "ordinarily" because someone might find themselves stranded on the Lord's Day without, reasonably, a food provision.

I like the idea of reaching out to fellow Believers for a meal in a situation like that, and the very diligent advance preparation reflected there as well. Thank you.

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 09:56:12 EST-----

What exactly qualifies as "focusing on God in thought and word" in this context? Like, would one have to talk about scripture or the sermon they'd just heard . . . or would something less "explicit", such as enjoying fellowship with Christian brothers and sisters with thankfulness in our hearts to God count as well?

You're right- if can be difficult to precisely define, especially in light of trying to anticipate all possibilities.

Generally, I would take this at face value of requiring thought, word, and deed- discussion of God's Word, prayer, what the Westminster Standards call "religious talk. I would not understand it to be a focus on the enjoyment of "fellowship"- that might be an incident of seeking God through His Word and prayer together, but not the focus. Nor would a general "thankfulness" cut it either.

But, if someone takes a new member out to lunch, who they met by (providential) chance at church and were not prepared to feed, a person with questions about why we infant baptize and really focuses on that (and explains keeping the priority of Lord's Day worship), it might. One might also carefully choose the eating place to minimize distraction.

(Only trying to explain a possible basis for the poll option, not necessarily advocating it)

 

[Dearly Bought]

The biggest reason that I've heard regarding Christians going to a restaurant is travelling. Which granted can be a problem. However when I travel I call the church beforehand and inform the minister of my visit to their congregation - I also ask if someone would be willing to break bread with us - so we don't have to go out to a resturant. The minister or one of the elders have been happy to provided a meal for us and there has been no need to go out to a restaurant. In other words a little preparation or planning goes a long way.

Exactly. I think it is shameful for a congregation to fail to invite travelers to their meals.

 

[Tripel]

I voted "other".

I'm not certain if eating out is prohibited by Scripture, but I don't think it is wise. As a general rule, we do not eat out on Sunday, just like we don't do a lot of things on Sunday (grocery shopping, fill up cars with gas, yard work, etc.). We plan ahead so that we don't have to do these things on Sunday.

There are two exceptions:

1) We occasionally get take-out on Sunday night, which is generally on the way home from church that evening. I don't have a good explanation for that, but for some reason I don't see that as big of a deal as Sunday lunch. I would say that it's a "sundown" principle, but that breaks down in that we don't "start" the Sabbath on Saturday's sundown.

2)We make an exception when we are traveling. Maybe that is sinful on our part, but my conscience is clear on that one. We are not big travelers, so this is rarely even an issue.

I guess my take on the 4th Commandment is that it is a matter of the heart. I feel like we consciously set that day aside as a special day of rest and gladness in the Lord. I clearly take exception to the WCF on this subject.

 

[Knoxienne]

What's easy to do is fall into (I've rationalized this way, sorry to say) is the pragmatism of "Well, employees in the restaurant are going to be working anyway". True.
But the command for us is to not work nor make our servants work. We know how serious God is about this since he even commands us not to work our animals. I know a lot of us (us included) don't have livestock, but the argument from the lesser to the greater is clear - if God wants even our beasts to rest, how much more does he want people made in his image to rest?

At the time we're using that table, these people who wait on us
are our servants, and we are the ones who are making them work. What others are doing is not the point. We're not responsible for other patrons, just ourselves. We must follow God's commandments.

Sometimes I wonder if the whole restaurant/Sabbath controversy would even be an issue if we as a culture weren't so into restaurants and eating out in the first place. I'm not saying we shouldn't patronize restaurants ( I love eating out)
but they are a poor substitute for being in a brother's
home, being sheltered and nurtured there, partaking of the fruit of their hands and labors of love, sitting in the comfort of their hospitality and enjoying their fellowship.

 

[Scott1]

Tripel
I guess my take on the 4th Commandment is that it is a matter of the heart. I feel like we consciously set that day aside as a special day of rest and gladness in the Lord. I clearly take exception to the WCF on this subject.

Your exceptions reflect careful thought about application.

However, I don't think keeping the commandment is merely or only a matter of the intentions of the heart. We rationalize much sin that way.

It is also one of the deed itself, including even the words themselves, and it seems that is what the Confessions are getting at "words and thoughts."

It sounds like your "exception" to the standards is to the recreation clause only though- Is that in light of your viewing it as recreation or
In light of your viewing that as requiring a worker to prepare a meal for you on Lord's Day?

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 10:22:39 EST-----

While food preparation is a necessity, is it a necessity that a man or maid servant do it for you?

One further question (good for lawyers to practice this way, and again, not necessarily advocating, only trying to clarify),

Accepting some food preparation is reasonably "necessary" Lord's Day, is it necessary the man's wife do it for everyone in the family and invited guests Lord's Day?

Is the work itself (which we agree is excepted by Scripture) required to be done by one (say a wife) on her Lord's Day but not permissible for someone else to do who would be paid for the same function?

 

[Craig]

I'm not a strict Sabbatarian (in theory I am, but in practice I follow a principle of grace/mercy)...there have been times where we found it of need to pick up some things on Sunday to complete a meal. Also, if we are invited out to eat by someone, we will choose to fellowship with them rather than not fellowship. A brother in Christ lives almost an hour away from our church, and he wants to take my family out to eat sometime after worship...he wants to bless us, and I'm not going to deny him on this...and we've tried inviting him over a number of times...his Sundays are erratic, and he'd rather take us out impromptu rather than have us prepare for his family only to have him need to back out (he's had to do that twice and we scrambled finding others to invite over).

Lastly, the Lord's Day is to be a pleasure...not something to fulfill begrudgingly (the Sabbath was made for man, not vice versa)...not that any of us could fulfill it...with that in mind, I do not think of things to avoid as much as I think of things best used to glorify God on the Lord's Day. I do think breaking bread in one's home is better than going out to eat...which is why we invite people into our home, not away from it. I also do not watch t.v. or go to movies or go shopping needlessly. These things, while entertaining, pale to the pleasure of rest afforded on this special day.

I agree, it is not "just any other day"...but it is not a day we laboriously try to keep from laboring on.

 

[Tripel]

I don't think keeping the commandment is merely or only a matter of the intentions of the heart. We rationalize much sin that way.

That is a good point. I don't want to suggest that the actions themselves are unimportant, but rather that I don't think the commandment is intended to be a list of Do's and Do Not's. If only it were that easy. Every person should thoughtfully consider what the 4th commandment looks like in practice.

It sounds like your "exception" to the standards is to the recreation clause only though- Is that in light of your viewing it as recreation or
In light of your viewing that as requiring a worker to prepare a meal for you on Lord's Day?

Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:

1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations

2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.

Regarding eating out, I object to it due to the worker having to prepare it for me. Now, I think there are times when "necessity" comes into play, and I acknowledge that is a messy word. It's never a life or death situation for me to eat out on Sunday, so in that sense it is not a necessity...but that same reasoning can be applied to using heat and light at the church building. It's not REALLY necessary to be using those utilities.
Regarding the Sabbath, I prefer to use "common sense necessities" as a guideline. It is not necessary for my family to eat out at Sunday lunch because we can prepare it at home. When traveling, it is more difficult. Someone earlier mentioned hotels--that's a great example. It is very difficult to be out of town on a Sunday and not at some point be serviced by someone working a job. And I don't think we are required to be in our homes each and every Sunday. It's a common sense issue.

 

[dbroyles]

I am not comfortable making someone do non-essential vocational work on the Lord's Day, whether they are believers or not. If we're traveling, we pack a cooler.

Theognome

Ditto on the cooler idea. We recently visited a church in Columbia, SC (2 hour drive) in order to witness the covenant baptism of our friends' 4th child. We then attended a funeral of a dear friend near Columbia at 1:00pm. The only option that made sense to us was packing the cooler with enough food for the day. The benefits were keeping the 4th commandment, the provision of an ample low-cost food supply, the immediate availability of the food (rather than wasting precious time on the Lord's Day looking for restaurants), and we had a rather enjoyable time as a family picnicking on the grass reflecting on God's covenant faithfulness in both life and in death.

 

[Zenas]

Scott:

The obvious difference is payment for services, and that's where the distinction turns and your question is answered.

 

[Skyler]

I misread the poll and accidentally voted for the wrong one.

I don't see that eating out is prohibited on the Sabbath. I have no conviction against it; I do think, though, that we should be focusing on God on the Sabbath.

 

[Zenas]

Jonathan,

How would you answer the quotes I provided?

 

[kvanlaan]

I know many would see it as going overboard, but I think a lot of this reasoning has to do with why many in the Dutch tradition eat soup and buns for their hot Sunday meal: soup is prepared on Saturday, and the meal, while hearty and filling, is done with minimal preparation on the Lord's Day. I think that is why, for many from this tradition, the thought of restaurants on the Lord's Day is so repellant. When you, within your understanding of the Lord's Day, make an effort to reduce food preparation labour on the Sabbath, but are then confronted with the idea of having a team of people labour and serve you so that you can have one meal, it is an offensive idea.

 

[Herald]

I decided to give the question posed in the OP some deliberate thought before responding.

It seems to me that within the group of those who hold to a confessional view of the Sabbath, there is not a definitive list of do's and don'ts. Eating at a restaurant is one such area of debate.

I believe most of us are in agreement that the Sabbath is a holy day set aside for the worship of God, fellowship, acts of mercy and works of necessity. How the parts are interpreted and practiced is the source of debate among confessional believers. Sharing individual convictions is helpful, but not binding. Is there a statement about Sabbath observance that will serve to bring confessional believers together in agreement?

I am convinced that the guiding principle behind Christian observance of the technical aspects of the Sabbath is the Word of God and conscience. I am going on the assumption that setting the day aside is a given among confessional believers. That said, the works of necessity and mercy may differ based on the teaching and understanding of the Word, and conscience. I may never darken the doorway of a restaurant on the Lord's Day while another brother holds to a contrary view. Both of us set the day aside in order to worship God and rest from our labors, but we have differring levels of conviction as to how the parts are defined that make up the whole.

In the absence of clearly defined rules, I am willing to extend liberty to my brother with whom I disagree.

 

[Scott1]

Tripel

Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:

1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations

2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.

So, are you understanding that you may think about, talk about your job on the Lord's Day (or are you referring only to the "recreation" part of the clause)?

And, is that a derivation of your understanding that the whole day is not required to be separated to focus on God, exceptions for necessity and mercy being allowed?

-----Added 3/31/2009 at 11:22:18 EST-----

Scott:

The obvious difference is payment for services, and that's where the distinction turns and your question is answered.

One final question, to clarify:

If someone did have a domestic worker (e.g. "nanny"), I assume it would be a violation for them to make food for the family or a child that day, is that correct?

However, it would not be a violation if the wife prepared the food for the family, guests, and the nanny?

(this is a real situation for some people following this)

 

[Tripel]

Tripel

Actually, there are two clauses I take exception to:

1) resting from all words and thoughts about employment and recreations

2) spending the "whole time" in worship and mercy.

So, are you understanding that you may think about, talk about your job on the Lord's Day (or are you referring only to the "recreation" part of the clause)?

And, is that a derivation of your understanding that the whole day is not required to be separated to focus on God, exceptions for necessity and mercy being allowed?

Yes, I am saying that I may think about or talk about my job. I think it is completely unrealistic and legalistic (I mean that in a respectful way, honest I do) to insist that I can only think about and speak about God, his Word, and worship. If my wife asks if I want to take leftovers to work the next day, I'm not going to rebuke her. And if I express to her that work has been difficult lately, I expect that she sympathize with me rather than ignore me.

My family spends more time together on Sunday than any other day of the week, and I'm sure that's the case for most people. I love Sundays, because I feel like our fellowship is sweet. We take afternoon walks, sometimes take naps, and we catch up on all sorts of things. The day is very much set apart--we worship and we rest.

 

[Zenas]

Scott:

Correct.