Elder Terms of Service: Definite or Indefinite?

Discussion in 'Ecclesiology' started by C. M. Sheffield, Oct 8, 2009.

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  1. C. M. Sheffield

    C. M. Sheffield Puritan Board Junior

    I'm a Baptist affirming a two-office (elder & deacon) view. My question is regarding lay elders. Should lay elders serve a definite term of service and then be rotated off or should they serve indefinite terms so long as they remain biblically qualified? Please give a defense of your position.
     
  2. John Lanier

    John Lanier Puritan Board Junior

    By "lay elder" do you mean one not supported financially by the church?
     
  3. Scott1

    Scott1 Puritan Board Doctor

    I think by analogy at least, certainly by biblical principle, officers ought have something like a sabbatical built in.

    Three year terms, then a mandatory break of at least one year after two terms (3 x 2 = 6 years) works well in practice.

    You probably understand the offices are perpetual (deacon and elder) but "active" (being on session or diaconate) at a given time is a useful distinction. That recognizes the difference between ordination (done only one time) and installation (which installs them in a religious ceremony) for a term of office.

    In practice, even while not active on session or diaconate, those officers are drawn on for assistance.
     
  4. BertMulder

    BertMulder Puritan Board Junior

    It is good to rotate, so that the church does not get dominated by a few perennial elders
     
  5. raekwon

    raekwon Puritan Board Junior

    Depends on the church.
     
  6. C. M. Sheffield

    C. M. Sheffield Puritan Board Junior

    Yes

    -----Added 10/8/2009 at 07:16:17 EST-----

    While I would agree with you here, not all churches see it this way. Some (Baptist) churches do not consider you an elder once you rotate out. Only active elders are elders. Now I don't agree with this but I would be interested in hearing what arguments some of you would make against it. This might provide me with some insights that I've overlooked.
     
  7. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Scripture says elders should be qualified and willing (1 Tim 3, Titus 1). The only time they should be forced out of service is when they are disqualified. They should be allowed to remove themselves (inactive status) for a period of time that they may be unwilling to serve for health, personal or family reasons. They may also go inactive upon recommendation of the rest of the elders (unrecognized burnout for example). Forced term limitations are manlaw. They can force someone out at a critical time.

    If there is a control/domination issue, it will not be resolved by rotation. There is something else wrong if that attitude is allowed to set itself up. Elders should be servant leaders, not dictators.
     
  8. RickyReformed

    RickyReformed Puritan Board Freshman

    From the "First Book of Discipline", "The Eight Head, Touching the Election of
    Elders and Deacons, etc." found in the _The Works of John Knox, Vol II_ edited by David Laing.

    I pulled the above quote from the SWRB site - First Book of Discipline (1560). but Google Books has a scanned version of the work along with the original spelling. The quote below is found on page 234 of the edition found on Google Books:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
  9. au5t1n

    au5t1n Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    We're talking about church, not the House of Representatives. I think those men who are especially wise and fit for ministry should be always over us, if it is desirable to them - leaving room for the possibility of "inactive status" for a time. I don't think regular term lengths is a good idea at all. You might force a church to rotate out well-qualified spiritual leaders and replace them just for the sake of following the term pattern.

    Am I completely off track here? :think:
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2009
  10. Montanablue

    Montanablue Puritan Board Doctor

    In theory, I agree with you. In practice, I've seen (well-meaning) elders completely dominate a church, so the idea of rotation appeals to me. I'm not sure what the best and most Biblical practice is though.
     
  11. Blue Tick

    Blue Tick Puritan Board Graduate

    It's up to the church. If the church votes them back in to serve then move forward. If the church votes not to have them serve then take a break. Obviously, it depends if the man is willing to serve as well.
     
  12. au5t1n

    au5t1n Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Sorry, I edited my post for clarification after you quoted it. I am willing to see another view on this, but I feel like term limits is too...American. I just can't picture the Apostles setting up a rotation system in the early church when they appointed elders. :D
     
  13. OPC'n

    OPC'n Puritan Board Doctor

    I think it should be rotated so that they don't get burnt out. Each qualified man should take his turn.
     
  14. Montanablue

    Montanablue Puritan Board Doctor

    No, I agree with you. "Term limits" do seem a little...vulgar... Its just that from my own personal experience I can see the rationale for doing it that way. Perhaps there are better ways to deal with the issue though.... I've often wondered if having elders control a church is more of a problem in an independent church than in a church with more oversight (such as a Presbyterian church)
     
  15. au5t1n

    au5t1n Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Does anyone know how the synagogue elders were appointed and maintained in Christ's time? I have heard that early church leadership was modeled somewhat after the Jews' familiar synagogue structure, and I can see how that might be the case. So does anyone know whether synagogue elders were rotated? Not saying that should be the deciding factor in what the Church should do, but it might be interesting to note.
     
  16. Brian Withnell

    Brian Withnell Puritan Board Junior

    I see nothing in scripture that puts a term on how long one should serve. If I am called as a deacon (I believe I am, and have had that call affirmed by my church) then in what way is the calling of God revoked? By a time elapse clock? Ah, you aren't called by God to the office any more, as your three years are up.

    I can see someone taking a sabbatical rest for special circumstances (one of our elders stepped down for a time to take care of his extremely aged mother ... she is in her 90's and frail). I could even see someone demitting the office if they question their calling. I do not see how a local church can put a time limit on what is a calling by God to one of the offices of the church.
     
  17. Romans922

    Romans922 Puritan Board Professor

    Should a Pastor have terms?
     
  18. Scottish Lass

    Scottish Lass Puritan Board Doctor

    If you require term limits, what happens in smaller congregations where there are very few qualified men to serve?
     
  19. RickyReformed

    RickyReformed Puritan Board Freshman

    Austin,

    The question can be asked - if the spiritual leaders are well qualified, why would a congregation vote them out? Furthermore, what if the spiritual leaders are *not* well qualified, how then does a congregation replace them with qualified elders? Notice that the First Book of Discipline does not forbid an elder from being elected yearly, but only that the elections be "common and free" and that deacons and treasurers not be _compelled_ to serve "for the space of three years."

    Also, what exactly does it mean to be an "inactive" pastor, elder, deacon, treasurer, etc? If the office is divorced from the **work** of the ministry, is it not just an empty title? I can understand if a minister or pastor is hindered providentially for a season due to illness, etc., but is not a minister called to minister to a congregation and a pastor called to feed Christ's sheep?

    Then entire section titled "Eighth Head -Touching the Election of
    Elders and Deacons, etc." is very edifying and I highly recommend it.

    I hope that helps.
     
  20. N. Eshelman

    N. Eshelman Puritan Board Senior

    I voted 'definite'; but I meant 'indefinite'. There is no biblical evidence that the elders in NT Church were on a three or four or one year rotation. They were ordained and they served.

    Especially as a two office position- do the teaching elders get to rotate their office as well? Pastor for 3 years and then sit down and allow another man to fill the pulpit for a couple of years until your name comes up in the rotation again! :)
     
  21. uberkermit

    uberkermit Puritan Board Freshman

    Ha! I am glad you clarified this, Nathan. When I looked at the poll results, I was thinking maybe they had gotten to you at PRTS! (The Dutch folks, I mean) ;)
     
  22. MMasztal

    MMasztal Puritan Board Sophomore

    In the ARP, elders are elected for life and at the option of the local session can rotate elders with the guidelines of minimum active period of 4 years, but no longer than 6 years and then 1 year off.

    I think it's good to rotate elders to prevent little dynasties from developing which is something I've seen in the past.
     
  23. jwithnell

    jwithnell Moderator Staff Member

    I agree with my husband's observation -- one does not suddenly become disqualified after a set time. "Dynasties" should be prevented by a plurality of officers and by extreme care in selecting and training them -- that process can take a couple of years in some congregations. The opportunity for sabbaticals can help to deal with "burn-out." So can a properly-operating congregation that takes up the burden, allowing the elders the time to study the word and pray.
     
  24. C. M. Sheffield

    C. M. Sheffield Puritan Board Junior

    This is a sticking point for me. In order for one to be consistent in that lay elders must rotate in and out of active service they must also acknowledge that the circumstances effecting lay elders would also effect the teaching elder (if you will). The question is then: why would the paid elder not rotate out after a certain number of years? I don't think they should and so the only other option is for one to accept that the lay and staff elder are fundamentally different offices. Which I do not accept.

    I'm aware of the pragmatic issues in play, but our conclusions can't find their base on such circumstantial grounds.
     
  25. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    It would appear to me that the proper analogy would be a pastoral sabbatical. What prevents a pastoral sabbatical is not theology, but funds, in the vast majority of churches. That is why larger, multi-minister churches give their pastors sabbaticals (usually 6 months).
     
  26. Romans922

    Romans922 Puritan Board Professor

    Fred, I understand the sabbatical, a period of rest. I can see this.

    However, I have concerns, there are churches (the majority of them, to my knowledge) which then after that 1 year break or whatever, require that the congregation then re-elect the RE back onto the Session.

    Personally, holding to a lifetime RE view, unless a RE is disciplined he should be serving as RE in the church, if he has a sabbatical then as soon as the time of rest is over than he is back on (no questions asked).
     
  27. fredtgreco

    fredtgreco Vanilla Westminsterian Staff Member

    Ordination is different from service. Ordination is for life. But that does not guarantee lifetime service. It is similar to when a TE takes a different call. It is also an opportunity for the congregation to affirm the service of the RE. This is especially true where you have new people in the congregation who were not members of the congregation when the RE was elected.
     
  28. JBaldwin

    JBaldwin Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    From what I can see from Scripture that elders and deacons are for life. The problem comes when congregations do not follow the Scriptures when it comes to choosing elders. If a man does not already display the gifts of an elder (shepherd) outlined in Scripture, then he should not be elected or even nominated. Too often, men are chosen based on their status in the church or even the community, rather than what gifts they possess.

    In an aside to the OP, I question the idea of the combined elder/deacon positions. From what I can see in Scripture, these two offices are not only separate, but rarely does one man possess both sets of gifts. The office of deacon should not be a stepping stone to becoming an elder. I have only seen this cross of gifts once or twice in all the years I've been in church, but often, I have seen deacons who were promoted to elders making a mess because they were totally out their element. It is the congregation who suffers greatly in these cases.

    In response to the question of what do you do with an elder who should not be there, provisions are made to recall someone who is not qualified, and it is the responsibility of the congregation to begin that process. When our church chose their first elders this past year (we are a brand new church), I was pleasantly surprised to hear our pastor take great care to explain to the congregation their responsibility before God of choosing elders based on Scriptural requirements and of recalling men if they failed to meet those requirements once elected.
     
  29. Rich Koster

    Rich Koster Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    I think you are spot on.

    -----Added 10/9/2009 at 05:04:01 EST-----

    I believe in Leviticus retirement at age 50 is stated and there was a rotation of duties. However, we don't do temple worship and animal sacrifices any more.
     
  30. C. M. Sheffield

    C. M. Sheffield Puritan Board Junior

    I would love to find a scholarly article on first century synagogue polity. I think we would find some striking similarities between first century Jewish and Christian polity. :think:
     
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