Elijah and Enoch

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
How would u respond to the charge that Enoch and Elijah died a physical death and were not translated to Heaven based on John 3:13

13*And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:13–14.
 

timfost

Puritan Board Senior
Follow-up: Are there any thoughts as to whether or not the bodies of these men are united to their souls now in heaven?

As of now, I'm not ready to speculate. I'm just curious if other theologians have tackled the question.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Trent,
I don't see how that changes the idea...

Bill,
But, majority view is that E&E are in Heaven...

Tim,
It would seem so, given that the majority view is that these men are in Heaven as we speak; and flesh at that!
 

Andrew P.C.

Puritan Board Junior
John 3:13 is a proof text for WCF 8:7.

"VII. Christ, in the work of mediation, acteth according to both natures; by each nature doing that which is proper to itself;a yet, by reason of the unity of the person, that which is proper to one nature is sometimes, in Scripture, attributed to the person denominated by the other nature.b

a. Heb 9:14; 1 Pet 3:18. • b. John 3:13; Acts 20:28; 1 John 3:16."

It seems that here Christ is referring to the divine nature rather then a physical presence in heaven.
 

Andrew P.C.

Puritan Board Junior
Although there is more here, Matthew Henry seems to allude to this "divine nature" as well:

"He gives them an instance of those heavenly things which he could tell them of, when he tells them of one that came down from heaven, and yet is the Son of man; is the Son of man, and yet is in heaven. If the regeneration of the soul of man is such a mystery, what then is the incarnation of the Son of God? These are divine and heavenly things indeed. We have here an intimation of Christ's two distinct natures in one person: his divine nature, in which he came down from heaven; his human nature, in which he is the Son of man; and that union of those two, in that while he is the Son of man yet he is in heaven." Henry, Commentary, John 3:13
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
V.12. It was of no use to Nicodemus that Enoch and Elijah, and Moses?, were bodily in Heaven if they were going to stay in Heaven and tell him nothing about Heavenly things. Enoch and Elijah, although having ascended bodily into Heaven are irrelevant to the point Christ is making here.

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Poole:

"The apostle keeps to the Septuagint translation of the text. He was miraculously changed in his body from a mortal to an immortal state, and this without any separation of his soul from it. God, out of an extraordinary grace and favour to him, dispensed with the common sentence passed on the human seed in Adam, as he did many ages after this to Elijah. He died not: all the rest of the fathers of the church, Gen. 5:5, 8, 27, the longest liver of them, died."

Matthew Poole, Annotations upon the Holy Bible, vol. 3 (New York: Robert Carter and Brothers, 1853), 861.

Henry:

") That he was translated, that he should not see death, nor any part of him be found upon earth; for God took him, soul and body, into heaven, as he will do those of the saints who shall be found alive at his second coming."

Matthew Henry, Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible: Complete and Unabridged in One Volume (Peabody: Hendrickson, 1994), 2398.

Thinking out-loud:

So, there are three fleshly beings in Heaven? Jesus, Enoch and Elijah? Are all 3 in glorified bodies?

Is there weather in the third Heaven; Enoch was taken up into 'heaven' by a whirlwind?
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Presumably they are glorified since flesh and blood, i.e. our current frailty, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

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Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Presumably they are glorified since flesh and blood, i.e. our current frailty, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

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So, I assume you believe they actually died?

24*Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 12:24.
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
1Kings18:7 And as Obadiah was in the way, behold, Elijah met him: and he knew him, and fell on his face, and said, Art thou that my lord Elijah? 8 And he answered him, I am: go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 9 And he said, What have I sinned, that thou wouldest deliver thy servant into the hand of Ahab, to slay me? 10 As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom, whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not. 11 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here. 12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth. 13 Was it not told my lord what I did when Jezebel slew the prophets of the LORD, how I hid an hundred men of the LORD'S prophets by fifty in a cave, and fed them with bread and water? 14 And now thou sayest, Go, tell thy lord, Behold, Elijah is here: and he shall slay me. 15 And Elijah said, As the LORD of hosts liveth, before whom I stand, I will surely shew myself unto him to day. 16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?

I Kings 18:16 So Obadiah went to meet Ahab, and told him: and Ahab went to meet Elijah. 17 And it came to pass, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said unto him, Art thou he that troubleth Israel?

II Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. 3 And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.

II Kings 2:4 And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. 5 And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. 6 And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.

II Kings 2:9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. 10 And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.

2 Kings 2:12 And it shall come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of the LORD shall carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he shall slay me: but I thy servant fear the LORD from my youth.



It looks as if God would move Elijah around at His will to protect him from danger...
 

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
Both Ezekiel and Phillip experienced the same:

12*Then the spirit took me up, and I heard behind me a voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of the LORD from his place. 13*I heard also the noise of the wings of the living creatures that touched one another, and the noise of the wheels over against them, and a noise of a great rushing. 14*So the spirit lifted me up, and took me away, and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; but the hand of the LORD was strong upon me.
15*Then I came to them of the captivity at Tel-abib, that dwelt by the river of Chebar, and I sat where they sat, and remained there astonished among them seven days.

'took me up'

5375 Hebrew-to lift, take, carry

39*And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Greek 726-to steal away
 

Andrew P.C.

Puritan Board Junior
I think the likelihood of weather in heaven is the same as chariots and horses made of fire dwell in heaven.

I believe these were just temporary devices used by God.
 

Peairtach

Puritan Board Doctor
Presumably they are glorified since flesh and blood, i.e. our current frailty, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

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So, I assume you believe they actually died?

24*Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 12:24.
No. I don't believe they died. See I Corinthians 15:51.

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Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
Both of them were translated away to heaven before experiencing physical death.

Those who hold to a Pre Mil view on end time events would see them as being the 2 witnesses in Revelation.
 

GulfCoast Presbyterian

Puritan Board Junior
Both of them were translated away to heaven before experiencing physical death.

Those who hold to a Pre Mil view on end time events would see them as being the 2 witnesses in Revelation.

Most of the pre-mils that I know would say the "two witnesses" should be identified as Moses and Elijah, although pre-mils are certainly not monolithic on the point.
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
Presumably they are glorified since flesh and blood, i.e. our current frailty, cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Sent from my C6903 using Tapatalk

So, I assume you believe they actually died?

24*Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 12:24.
No. I don't believe they died. See I Corinthians 15:51.

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Is not Paul speaking about "we" not "they"?
 

C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
I've not yet seen anyone deal with this adequately that doesn't make Christ out to be a liar in John 3. "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." (Joh. 3:13). "No one" οὐδεὶς (Joh. 3:13). Elijah and Enoch would be "someone."
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
You would have to factor intom this also that Peter saw both Elijah and Moses alive, and Moses had physically died!
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
True, as some see those 2, other the 2 I mentioned, and still others as representing Israel and Church as a group in end times!
 
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