Ethical question

[LadyFlynt]

You are putting words into ppl's mouths.

It is not neccessary that it be ONLY for procreation.

My issue is that most forms of artificial birth control (ie chemical and IUD) does indeed "murder" a child.

THAT is NOT cultish...it is a fact. Do you know what abortifactant means? (rhetorical question, answer not needed) This whole thread started with a man being punished because he refused to give out a drug that is intended to and known to eliminate pregnancy...notice, it ELIMINATES it...NOT Prevents it.

 

[TimV]

My issue is that most forms of artificial birth control (ie chemical and IUD) does indeed "murder" a child.

Your use of the word "most" shows that you do not understand the issue at all. Not in any way, shape or form. I am not putting words into anyone's mouths, and I will prove it.

Read this carefully, and tell us what you think of it

"Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. "

If my wife's tubes are tied, then she cannot get pregnant. Period. She does nothing to kill a child. If you think differently, please tell me, but be logical. We have never lost a child, like you think you have. Nor have we kept these hypothetical souls from being born, like people ignorant of the very basics of our faith may say.

This is getting stupid. If you feel like giving up your BC do it. But I will not be judged by anyone with less than seven kids, that's for sure, and not by someone like Provan, who had his kids run under dangerous Polish concentration sites to look for holes (where he was too fat and/or cowardly to look himself) where HCN was said by a mad man who killed himself to have been inserted.

If anyone want's the session of his church to start the process of censure for those why practise birth control, they should do it. But when they are showed to be fanatics, don't let them say I didn't warn them.

And to those who call 90 percent of the people on this board and in their churches murderers from a crazy exogeses of the sixth commandment, beware lest you be judged if you are, say, overweight.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Number one...this was a discussion, not a trial of you or your wife by myself, nor a trial of myself by you.

Number two...your wife is not using abortifactants, which was the main part of the BC issue being discussed.

Number three...I personally am against surgical procedures...however, since it is not abortifactant, I feel that that can be debated and will be debated for the next few hundred years. I might debate the pros and cons of the issue, but I'm not going to knock someone over the head for it.

Number four...I never equated sex without the intent of procreation with murder. The murder comes in with the issue of abortifactants. Two totally separate and distinct issues.

No clue who Provan is or was or whatever. However, I may only have five children, but I have been down the BCP path, I have studied both of sides of the medical issues with various types of BCs, I was a former nanny to a pharmeceutical sales representative, many family and friends that are nurses and doctors, and many personal friends who have 7-19 children. I may not have hit my forties yet, however, I am married, have dealt with both sides of this issue, and understand difficult pregnancies. I nearly died with my fourth. It wasn't the pregnancy that was the problem, instead it was an incident during delivery. I understand worry, fear, financial problems, being overwhelmed, etc.

I'm not ignorant nor being judgemental...simply debating the issue.

 

[TimV]

Yes, but what about the quote I asked you to comment on?

 

[Theological Books]

Well, in reading the story, I think the pharmacist was in the wrong for refusing to sell birth control to the lady. Regardless of his personal beliefs, he is in a job that demands equality and rights to be met in regulation to the laws of the state. If he doesn't want to sell birth-control devices/medication, then he should get another job.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by Theological Books
Well, in reading the story, I think the pharmacist was in the wrong for refusing to sell birth control to the lady. Regardless of his personal beliefs, he is in a job that demands equality and rights to be met in regulation to the laws of the state. If he doesn't want to sell birth-control devices/medication, then he should get another job.

That's the same excuse used by the Canadian Government to require Doctors to abort babies.

 

[LadyFlynt]

"most" forms....chemical and IUD
aritificial....chemical, IUD, surgical, spermicidal, barrier


As far as your other quote, she took a potion....those "potions" were known to abort. As far as the "penance" portion...consider that it is a catholic statement. If we were to use the statement from a Protestant view...then it would would read "unless she repents".

[Edited on 3-5-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[larryjf]

Actually, the reasoning of giving pills for hormonal problems is not legit. I've had those problems and have known many others that have also. In some cases it makes it worse. In others it just covers up a bigger problem (and makes it worse)...like endometriosis. It can cause infertility. And if she is sexually active it is abortifactant. It is "supposed" to suppress ovulation, but that rarely happens. Instead it also changes the lining of the uterus to not allow the concieved child to be able to attach to the wall of the uterus, thus automatically causing miscarriage...so early on that it isn't usually noticed.

I've been there...I'll never go there again.

That was not the case with my sister-in-law.
She has actually had 2 healthy babies while on birth control for her hormone problem.
The therapy has helped her problem and not prohibited her from having healthy babies.
That's why i think it's unwise to just make blanket statements about this type of therapy and the usage of birth control pills without knowing specifically what it is prescribed for.

 

[LadyFlynt]

In many cases it does cover up the problem, mayhap not in your relatives case. However, that does not change the fact that it is an abortifactant...are you aware that it is possible that your relative could have miscarried and not even have known it DUE TO the abortifactant nature of the pills? Is it okay to abort to solve our hormonal issues? That is what it comes down to.

 

[Texas Aggie]

The doctor writes the Rx for the drug, the pharmacist simply fills the prescription and provides it to the patient. If the pharmacist does not wish to fill the order due to moral considerations, they can refuse; however, they have to provide the recipient with a name or location of a pharmacist who will fill the order. Physicians are in the same boat. They can refuse to provide an Rx script; however, they default to the next physician.

 

[TimV]

In many cases it does cover up the problem, mayhap not in your relatives case. However, that does not change the fact that it is an abortifactant

You still don't see the issue at all. A car is an abortifactant if you hit a pregnant woman with it.

 

[HuguenotHelpMeet]

[/quote]

You still don't see the issue at all. A car is an abortifactant if you hit a pregnant woman with it. [/quote]

No offense, but that argument sounds so silly to me. In the case of a car accident, you are not knowingly taking a life in most cases. If you are knowingly trying to take a life with the car, then just as in the case of artificial BC, you are breaking the 6th commandment.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by TimV

You still don't see the issue at all. A car is an abortifactant if you hit a pregnant woman with it.

Actually, I probably see the issue clearer than you do. And you've just gone off into the ridiculous.

My, that would make stairs suicidal. Oh, well...I guess since it's okay to use stairs then it's okay to use cocaine also, right? (That's about how much sense you just made)

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[TimV]

Larry wrote

"That was not the case with my sister-in-law.
She has actually had 2 healthy babies while on birth control for her hormone problem.
The therapy has helped her problem and not prohibited her from having healthy babies."

Colleen wrote

"However, that does not change the fact that it is an abortifactant"

Yes, Colleen, it does change the "fact". It gave her kids rather than killing them.

Tim wrote, hoping that it would be easily understood

"You still don't see the issue at all. A car is an abortifactant if you hit a pregnant woman with it. "

Meaning that the drug Larry spoke of could in some cases be used for BC and in other cases to do the opposite, namely help have babies.

Jessica wrote

"No offense, but that argument sounds so silly to me."

Which is one difference that women don't make theologians, they tend let their emotions cloud their judgments.

Jessica also wrote

" If you are knowingly trying to take a life with the car, then just as in the case of artificial BC, you are breaking the 6th commandment. "

Which brings us back to the main issue. Is any form of BC the crime of murder?

Jessica, I take it you've read through this whole thread. So I ask you for a direct answer. Do you think that a church as the obligation to excommunicate a family for practicing any form of birth control, and on the grounds of murder?

Thanks in advance for a clear, detailed answer that doesn't drift too far off the subject.

 

[HuguenotHelpMeet]

Originally posted by TimV

Jessica wrote

"No offense, but that argument sounds so silly to me."

Which is one difference that women don't make theologians, they tend let their emotions cloud their judgments.

Jessica also wrote

" If you are knowingly trying to take a life with the car, then just as in the case of artificial BC, you are breaking the 6th commandment. "

Which brings us back to the main issue. Is any form of BC the crime of murder?

Jessica, I take it you've read through this whole thread. So I ask you for a direct answer. Do you think that a church as the obligation to excommunicate a family for practicing any form of birth control, and on the grounds of murder?

Thanks in advance for a clear, detailed answer that doesn't drift too far off the subject.

Yes, I have been keeping up with this whole thread. Yes, I believe that most ARTIFICIAL forms of birth control are murder. This includes hormonal birth control pills and IUD. It may not be intentional murder and I believe that this is where the church needs to come in and educate families on this error and hopefully bring the family to a true understand and repentence. If a family in the church is KNOWINGLY aborting their children through these means then yes, I believe it should be addressed by the session using Matthew 18 as their guide.

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by HuguenotHelpMeet]

 

[TimV]

Sigh....

Jessica you wrote

If you are knowingly trying to take a life with the car, then just as in the case of artificial BC, you are breaking the 6th commandment.

Then, you switch to

Yes, I believe that most ARTIFICIAL forms of birth control are murder.

Do you take back what you said in the first case? Without knowing anything whatsoever of Larry's example you lump them all together calling it murder, then you switch by saying "most". Do you not see there is a difference in what you said?

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by TimV
Yes, Colleen, it does change the "fact". It gave her kids rather than killing them.

So does that mean it's IVF is also okay....I mean hey, we may throw away 3 kids, but it gave the couple the one they wanted. (I believe this is why adoption IS an option and IS IMPORTANT)

Meaning that the drug Larry spoke of could in some cases be used for BC and in other cases to do the opposite, namely help have babies.

No, the pills have the FULL ability and INTENT of killing. Just because it "happens" to have an occasional good thing about them, doesn't change this. The outcome for the good is not predictable (occasional, rare). The outcome for the bad is (common, and purposefully put there by those who created the pill).

Which is one difference that women don't make theologians, they tend let their emotions cloud their judgments.

Now THAT was rude....we've avoided "male-bashing" and have kept our respectful places while debating this. You however, have gone overboard here to be so sexists. We are not to be in the pulpit, that does not mean that we are not intelligient. You have also proven that YOU are highly emotional on this topic and have taken it WAY TOO personally due to your wife's situation.

Which brings us back to the main issue. Is any form of BC the crime of murder?

Actually, this wasn't the main issue...the main issue was dealing with chemical BC. That is why I have continually separated the two. You want to lump them both with a blanket statement, saying that if one is wrong for one reason then the other is wrong for the same. That is not always the case. In the case of BC one is wrong for one reason (chemical, IUD-murder) and both could be wrong for another reason (natural, barrier, chemical, surgical-going against the order that God has instated)

I believe my last paragraph answers your question quite clearly.

Though, as I've stated before....some ppl do consider the rejection of having children (regardless of methods used) as being equal to being murdurous.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by HuguenotHelpMeet

Yes, I have been keeping up with this whole thread. Yes, I believe that most ARTIFICIAL forms of birth control are murder. This includes hormonal birth control pills and IUD. It may not be intentional murder and I believe that this is where the church needs to come in and educate families on this error and hopefully bring the family to a true understand and repentence. If a family in the church is KNOWINGLY aborting their children through these means then yes, I believe it should be addressed by the session using Matthew 18 as their guide.

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by HuguenotHelpMeet]

 

[LadyFlynt]

Originally posted by TimV
Sigh....

Jessica you wrote

If you are knowingly trying to take a life with the car, then just as in the case of artificial BC, you are breaking the 6th commandment.

Then, you switch to

Yes, I believe that most ARTIFICIAL forms of birth control are murder.

Do you take back what you said in the first case? Without knowing anything whatsoever of Larry's example you lump them all together calling it murder, then you switch by saying "most". Do you not see there is a difference in what you said?

You are being nit-picky....you know which forms she was refering to and what she meant. It can't be THIS difficult for you to understand, can it?

 

[TimV]

I will wait for Jessica.

 

[LadyFlynt]

Yes, I believe you will...since you obviously don't like the idea of focusing on the separate groups of BC and the DIFFERENT laws of God that they break.

 

[TimV]

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Yes, I believe you will...since you obviously don't like the idea of focusing on the separate groups of BC and the DIFFERENT laws of God that they break.

That is a different issue, and so I will answer you. Now, try to concentrate really hard, and answer specifically.

You brought up the opinion that I am letting my emotions get the better of me on this issue because of my wife's circumstances. For health reasons, after much Christian and medical advice, my wife's tubes are tied. This is the only thing you know about the situation because I've alluded to it.

Please explain to me how my wife and I are committing the sin of murder. If you do not direct the issue directly and specifically, showing the mannor in which we are breaking the sixth commandment, I will just write off your oppinions as those of an emotional woman without a disciplined mind, and treat only with other people on this subject.

 

[LadyFlynt]

You are still being quite rude and I'm sure your own wife wouldn't like to be talked to in such a manner...so why speak to me like so? I am neither ignorant or overly emotional...I happen to be upfront (though not typically aggressive) and very intelligient...I was raised in an intelligient home by highly intellectual ppl.

Neither I nor anyone else EVER stated that you and your wife were committing murder. This is where I see your emotional attachment to arguing this issue. You keep insisting that it is being said. It never was. It WAS, however, stated that there are ppl that DO believe this way...stated, just so you wouldn't be surprised if you ran into them amoungest the quiverful families. Again, however, that is not everybody. The main consensus on the OTHER BC matters is simply that they go against the order that God has created and put in place as well as his commands to be fruitful/multiply and the blessings that come with such.

I do not believe that there is any reasons (whether I be male or female) for name calling...never have I called you ignorant and when mentioning emotionalism, I qualified it to a circumstance that you have mentioned several times and keep relating to the issue yourself, not simply due to your gender.

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by LadyFlynt]

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by LadyFlynt]

 

[TimV]

Nice try. You wrote

"Yes, I believe you will...since you obviously don't like the idea of focusing on the separate groups of BC and the DIFFERENT laws of God that they break."

Which laws do a family break when they purposely keep eggs from being fertilized?

 

[LadyFlynt]

The main consensus on the OTHER BC matters is simply that they go against the order that God has created and put in place as well as his commands to be fruitful/multiply and the blessings that come with such.

(BTW...that was in my post above)

 

[HuguenotHelpMeet]

Hi Tim.

Oh man, I had a half written post over an hour ago when our power went out. We're having a snow storm here. I'll try to post again now.

First, as to the emotional aspect of a woman's mind, I agree that I am an emotional person, praise God for the creation of women. However, I have come to my opinion on this issue through the help of my DH, who is one of the most logically and sober minded people I know. I don't think that my opinion is one that only an emotional & theologically weak woman would have. In fact, if you read this thread from the beginning most of the quotes given supporting my beliefs were from MEN! Hmmmm....

WRT the following:

Originally posted by TimV
Sigh....

Jessica you wrote

Quote:

If you are knowingly trying to take a life with the car, then just as in the case of artificial BC, you are breaking the 6th commandment.


Then, you switch to

Quote:

Yes, I believe that most ARTIFICIAL forms of birth control are murder.


Do you take back what you said in the first case? Without knowing anything whatsoever of Larry's example you lump them all together calling it murder, then you switch by saying "most". Do you not see there is a difference in what you said?

If you misunderstood what I was saying by my lack of consistancy with using the word "most" then I humbly apologize. I should have said "most" in my first statement. However, please note that NEVER did I use the word "ALL".

This is a bit of a sensitive topic for women to discuss with men based on it's personal nature. So, see my face red as I type this. Yes, I do see a difference in the various types of birth control. A tubal ligation (or men's sterilization) as you mentioned does stop an egg from being fertilized. This is different then a hormonal pill or device that stops a fertilized egg from being implanted in the woman's uterus. I don't support the use of condoms, tubal ligations, men's sterilization or even NFP for the same reasons as Colleen stated but I am NOT willing to say that it would be sin for every couple if there are health issues involved. I think there are extraordinary situations where some use of BC may be necessary. However, if that use of BC is through means of ending another's life, then it should never be considered, in my opinion. Hormonal birth control pills kill conceived children...children that were fearfully and wonderfully made in God's image.

I've tried to be as clear and unemotional as possible (it's hard, being a woman!) in answering your questions. I would really appreciate it if you would answer the following question for me.

Do you believe it would be sinful (a violation of the 6th commandment) to use birth control pills or any other abortion causing birth control?

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by HuguenotHelpMeet]

[Edited on 3-8-2005 by HuguenotHelpMeet]

 

[TimV]

Do you believe it would be sinful (a violation of the 6th commandment) to use birth control pills or any other abortion causing birth control?

No, because as has been said something that in one case can cause an abortion in another doesn't necessarily cause abortion. I do believe an abortion is a violation of the sixth commandment. But your DH wasn't talking about those chemicals. He spoke of the sin of Onan. Go back and read it. It was the prevention of fertilizing an egg that he claims is a violation of the sixth commandment, right?

 

[HuguenotHelpMeet]

Tim,

I do believe that the sin of Onan (BC) is a violation of the 6th commandment, even though no chemicals were used. I stated that I don't support NFP, sterilization, or the use of barrier methods and Onan's sin is what I base those beliefs on. I don't believe that Onan murdered a human life. His sin was less heinous then that of abortion but it still violated the 6th commandment, in my opinion. Onan didn't have any medical or life threatening reason, did he?

This is what John Calvin had to say in his commentary on Gen. 38

"The voluntary spilling of semen outside of intercourse between man and woman is a monstrous thing. Deliberately to withdraw from coitus in order that semen may fall on the ground is doubly monstrous. For this is to extinguish the hope of the race and to kill before he is born the hoped-for offspring."

Please don't mistake me, I'm not saying that a human soul was lost in Onan's sin. But just as we are "killing" when we have sinful anger, so are we "killing", in my opinion, when we practice (even natural) forms of BC.

What is your basis for saying that BC pills cause abortions in some and not others? How do you know that just because a woman was able to bring a child to term (praise God) while on the pill that she didn't also loose perhaps many other children before conceiving the child that lived? Colleen made an excellent point when she stated that it is very similar to that of IVF. We are against IVF, not because we don't want families to be blessed with children but because lives are lost in the process. We can't sacrifice one life for another. That is immoral.

 

[TimV]

His sin was less heinous then that of abortion but it still violated the 6th commandment, in my opinion. Onan didn't have any medical or life threatening reason, did he?

We don't know. All we know is that he didn't want to share his wealth with his brother's family as was the law and custom of the times. This is the only hint we are given in Scripture as to the reason God was angry at the guy.

But there is enough information on this thread for the people reading to make up their minds, if they had questions before. It will be interesting to see if anyone brings it up in their Session, and if so, how far they get with it. Why don't you have Andrew try it, and report back with the results?

 

[LadyFlynt]

Unfortunately the church is too scared to go there.