Eucharist as Sacrifice

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the Reformers not only departed from the 16th century Roman Church on this issue. In rejecting all sacrificial language they departed from the early church as well (and the entire history of the church from the second century onward). Without question, the Apostolic Fathers refer to the Eucharist as a sacrifice. They may not have meant it in the Roman sense, but what did they mean?
It will be simpler if you supply literal quotes and references.

However, I will simply grant that they did speak thus for prosecuting the point: the Reformers left (some of) the language of the early church behind. And?

And they went back to Scriptural language. Moreover, the ECFs don't speak in only one mode, as if such sacrificial terms are all they use.

We might say: the Reformers chose the ECFs' better language, and dropped that which was unhelpful. Development can go in a bad direction, and often did. Which is why we have to keep coming back to Scripture and checking our progress. The early church is a mixed bag; so it has to be measured against the inerrant Word.

Furthermore, early church teaching (such as we have of it) would often simply borrow biblical language and employ it to make their point. This has up-and-down side. If the exegesis behind the borrowing is fine, the language is well used, though quoting doesn't replace teaching the substance of the theology the words are meant to convey. You still must teach the truth embodied in the verses.

However, the background exegesis was frequently lacking. Often (as will happen in any age, even our own) the apostles' intent by their words was evacuated, and in its place was substituted Greek philosophy, Gnostic ideas, or any number of errors. We have people today who read some verse of Scripture, and without skipping a beat assign it an anachronistic meaning that would never have occurred to the inspired writer; but actually reflects certain naïve linguistic assumptions of a 20th century interpreter.

Nor is the problem a function of "which century" either, but the early church was just as susceptible as any age. It became even more susceptible when Gentiles not only outstripped the Jews coming into the nascent NT church; but when Jewish entry slowed to a trickle.

An immediate benefit of practical acquaintance with the OT in the apostolic age (in the way of converts straight out of synagogues, many of which were already "elders," ready made for church-leadership, and lost in the following century) was the substantial presence of a "biblical mentality" coming out of an early counter-culture (Jewish flavored) to the dominant one (Greco-Roman).

All which to say: we value the ECFs, but we don't simply prefer a thought because it is old, as if all the ancients said has equal value. Not even Rome thinks that, but cherry-picks them for their own purposes--while claiming to be the ones who take them seriously (and use them correctly, etc.). But Rome also thinks of the Bible as her project, and the Fathers and the whole Magisterium as more of the same. We aren't going to give in on this point, nor assume Rome's "choice quotes" are properly contextualized (which they often are not).

So, again, please offer some specific ECF statement, and its source; and then there's something concrete to work with. But in any case, whatever we think of it, it isn't the Bible itself; and as Presbyterian and Reformed we're beholden to the Word.

Can the meal be neatly separated from the sacrifice? For example, can the Passover meal be neatly separated from the sacrifice of the Paschal Lamb? Or are they two parts of the same event?
Separation is what we're doing (I don't know what you mean by "neatly"), that is distinguishing the one from another; even if we insist on maintaining the connection between them. The correct questions being: "is it legitimate?" and "what sort of connection?" Furthermore, in your quote I'm not sure why Paschal Lamb is capitalized--unless you are referring to Christ, and in particular the Last Passover.

On that occasion it's obvious Jesus is not handing the disciples "sacrificial residue," when he hasn't even been slain yet; nor (as he is physically whole before them) does what they partake of actually function as his ritual sacrifice. What we consume (as a general observation) becomes part of us; and a shared meal means that those participating are united in the essence of what they share. In the Supper, the Lord eats with his people and shares himself with them as he connects the elements with his whole Person--who lived, died, and rose again.

The cross is central to this sharing; but the meal is not the sacrifice. It is the sign of the thing that was done, and the union that the done-thing made sure. Without the cross, there would be no people united to Christ; who are united to him chiefly at the point his death (on account of our acute need), but also to his righteous life, and to his resurrection. We are united to Christ, and to his particulars as explained in the gospel.

If all you wish to say is that the Final sacrifice of Christ, over past and done, he sets before you and says, "Peace;" that's consistent with language such as 1Cor.5:7 or Heb.9:11-15. But anything more challenges Heb.10:10-12 and the finished work of Christ. The pastor is not working priestcraft, the people are not finding acceptance with God with the immanent breaking of the body and shedding of the blood of the Savior. But it was (past tense) broken and shed, and we are seated by invitation of Him who loved us and washed us from stain.
I have no problem with the idea that the true altar is in heaven. In Roman thought, the cross of Christ was an altar. Would you take issue with this?
The cross is where he was offered up; of course it was an "altar" of sorts. But Jesus is the Temple (Jn.2:21), all the furnishings are signs pointing to himself; so then the earthly instrument rots, burns, is overturned--it's gone; but the true altar is wherever he is. He's already gone into the Holy of Holies and made atonement, Heb.10:19. Now, we draw near, v22, at a Table in the sacred Presence (not at an altar without) in order to eat. These furnishings have very different functions.

I understand the Feast of Unleavened Bread described in Exodus 13 to be identical to the Passover Feast. But this is an interesting point. The Passover Feast certainly involved the killing of a lamb, but I'm not sure that the Passover Feast was regarded as a sacrifice in the same way that the five temple sacrifices are sacrifices. Was the Passover Feast a sacrifice?
I don't know if you understand what I was getting at. Ex.13:11-16 describes the consecration of every firstborn to God, e.g. done to Jesus Lk.2:22ff, as soon as his mother was purified. This ritual is distinct from the annual memorial Passover celebration; but this place in the Law of Moses was an ideal place to describe it. The Feast of Unleavened Bread mentioned very briefly in vv6-7 is connected to the memorial Passover (followed immediately in the Jewish calendar).

The offering for the Passover was not precisely the same as the peace-offering brought at will by members of the covenant community. However, such offerings were of the same nature, and were governed by the same general rules of the altar. There's a reason why the Passover had to be celebrated in the vicinity of Jerusalem; because, the priests killed the lambs and sprinkled their blood, and then the beasts were taken bodily, roasted, and eaten immediately.

We may observe the parts of the Israelite ceremonial system, and the whole of it distinctly. Israel's single altar was a focal point of unification for the whole panoply. The death of Christ is tied not merely to one aspect of Israel's typological worship; but to the entirety. But to reduce our field of vision once more to just the Passover as type: our Supper Table is to the death of Christ as the Israelite Passover Meal was to their passage out of Egypt, even unto the Red Sea passage. That is, sign compared to thing signified.

All this gets a bit distracted from my original point: that Israel's in memoriam Passover was not for the purpose of being taken again out of Egypt; or that without rehearsing the sacrifice again, the people would be sent back thither. It was to recall how they had been brought out already, and had received the promises made to Abraham.
Yes but they are eating a cultic meal - the Passover Feast. Would we say that the Eucharist is a cultic meal?
..........
This would depend on whether or not the Passover Feast was regarded as a sacrifice. I would need to dig more into this.
You may need to define your terms. But to me, it's rather basic to describe the Lord's Supper as a "cultic meal." It is called "the Lord's Supper" in 1Cor.11:20. It was inaugurated on the occasion of one of Israel's primary feasts, not as a one-to-one replacement but essentially to supplant the entire ceremonial raft.

Inasmuch as Jesus sweeps aside the whole typological prefigurement, and puts himself in its place, he fulfills the whole. He has either done this all, and set Moses aside forever; or else... perhaps Rome has struck upon the proper course, and making an "altar" the centerpiece of her ritual she improves the participants, seeking thereby to justify them.
 
Rev Bruce thanks so much for the thorough response. It'll take me a while to work through all of that, but I look forward to pondering it all. It looks clarifying!

For now, I'll quote a few Apostolic Fathers for reference.

Here's Clement in 1 Clement (to the Corinthians) Chapter 40:
"1 Since then these things are manifest to us, and we have looked into the depths of the divine knowledge, we ought to do in order all things which the Master commanded us to perform at appointed times. 2 He commanded us to celebrate sacrifices and services, and that it should not be thoughtlessly or disorderly, but at fixed times and hours. 3 He has himself fixed by his supreme will the places and persons whom he desires for these celebrations, in order that all things may be done piously according to his good pleasure, and be acceptable to his will. 4 So then those who offer their oblations at the appointed seasons are acceptable and blessed, for they follow the laws of the Master and do no sin. 5 For to the High Priest his proper ministrations are allotted, and to the priests the proper place has been appointed, and on Levites their proper services have been imposed. The layman is bound by the ordinances for the laity."

In context, Clement's purposes are to exhort against potential schism in Corinth. He is comparing the necessity of the orderliness of worship and submission to ordained authorities to the OT Levitical system. But in doing so he refers to Christian worship services as "sacrifices".

Here's Clement again in 1 Clement 44 talking about the same issues:
"4 For our sin is not small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily offered its sacrifices. 5 Blessed are those Presbyters who finished their course before now, and have obtained a fruitful and perfect release in the ripeness of completed work, for they have now no fear that any shall move them from the place appointed to them. 6 For we see that in spite of their good service you have removed some from the ministry which they fulfilled blamelessly."

Here's the Didache Chapter 14 speaking of Christian worship:
"1 On the Lord’s Day of the Lord come together, break bread and hold Eucharist, after confessing your transgressions that your offering may be pure; 2 but let none who has a quarrel with his fellow join in your meeting until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice be not defiled. 3 For this is that which was spoken by the Lord, “In every place and time offer me a pure sacrifice, for I am a great king,” saith the Lord, “and my name is wonderful among the heathen.”"
 
Perhaps a more basic question would be in order here. Can we say that the Christian worship service is an offering to the Lord?
 
Perhaps a more basic question would be in order here. Can we say that the Christian worship service is an offering to the Lord?

Yes, and in fact we are commanded to present our entire lives as living sacrifices. But the sacrifice spoken of in the mass is of an entirely different fashion. Rome may claim differently, just as they claim not to worship Mary and the saints, but we must judge by what they do and not what they say. It is also true that the ECF were much more liberal in their use of sacrifial language in their discussions of the supper, but this would not be the first time that Rome has ruined a perfectly good term.
 
Yes, and in fact we are commanded to present our entire lives as living sacrifices. But the sacrifice spoken of in the mass is of an entirely different fashion. Rome may claim differently, just as they claim not to worship Mary and the saints, but we must judge by what they do and not what they say. It is also true that the ECF were much more liberal in their use of sacrifial language in their discussions of the supper, but this would not be the first time that Rome has ruined a perfectly good term.

This is interesting. So you suggest that the ECF were liberal in their use of sacrificial language and that Rome ruined this language by making the Eucharist a propitiatory sacrifice? Is it then possible for Reformed folks to reclaim a more primitive understanding of the Eucharist as a sacrifice?
 
But in doing so he refers to Christian worship services as "sacrifices".
I do not agree that this is Clement's intent. As I read, it appears that the entire statement from the second to the fifth sentence is a continuous reference to the holy ordinances of the Mosaic Law.

"He has commanded" in Gk. is followed by a supplied "us," (ala Bible versions that supply minor terms needed in English), but the sentence reads fine without it; and the sense is that God did furnish an entire orderly system under the Law. I don't think Clement is going back-and-forth in an effort to parallel Christian services with the OT Temple. And I think ch.41 following bears this interpretation out.

Here are 2 other translations of 44 (relevant snip):
-- "those who have offered the gifts of the bishop's office unblamably and holily" (J.B. Lightfoot)
-- "those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its [episcopate] duties."
[193. literally "presented the offerings."] (Roberts & Donaldson)
In my view, "offered its sacrifices" is a tendentious translation, but certainly fits a sacerdotal predilection.

Whatever these acts were (and we may easily fit all manner of things: starting with offered prayer, presenting sermons, administering sacraments; the latter two would be "presenting" the "gifts" of God to the people), the idea is that these men fulfilled faithfully their ecclesiastical ministry. The notion that Clement is talking about offering the Eucharist as sacrifice is not compelling to me in the least.

It's helpful if you find an ECF unambiguously discussing the subject at hand; even better, handling a Scripture text which is directly relevant. At least with the Didache reference, there is reference to Mal.1:11&14. This text certainly refers ahead to the coming (NT) age. The OT constantly refers to the future age using the vernacular religious customs of the (OT) age in which it is witnessed. The people who received that revelation would not have related to the prophetic word under any other presentation.

But the changes Jesus wrought were radical; Most often he did not simply borrow the ancient customs and reinterpret them, keeping their form. Jesus doesn't work for Moses, but vice versa. Moses needs to be understood as supplying the people with substitutes and stand-ins, gross and sometimes gaudy symbolism that would in time be set aside like so many childish toys (Gal.4:3; Eph.4:14).

So what is the θυσία, the offering, of Did.14? Is it not the worship of them gathered, 1Pet.2:5? Is it not the people themselves, Rom.12:1? The gifts of the people, Php.4:18? As I said, the earliest writings that survive till now frequently and simply refer or allude to Scriptural language. So we should be looking to the uses in the Bible of those terms to understand what those folk were thinking. Christ himself is the NT sacrifice par excellence; and yet a plain "Eucharistic" reference to sacrifice is nil in the whole NT.

Heb.13:15-16, "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. But to do good and to communicate forget not: for with such sacrifices God is well pleased."
 
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