Evils of Drama?

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Bob, esteemed brother, that will be you and me both....

I am not worthy to be even a doorkeeper in His church now, never mind heaven.

Like that line in your trailer, as an elder we soon learn that we are just empty, void earthen vessels...

When I look at all the time I have wasted, all the time I still waste, including in this thread, in this forum....
 
BobVigneault said:
Bert, please do not think I'm mocking - I am not.

You have given a very dire warning. You have said that we will answer for every idle word spoken. I have spoken so many I could never count them. I have failed to live as Christ would too many times to count.

I have fallen short of seeking God in everything. I have sinned, fallen short, missed the mark and I am worthless apart from Christ. I am utterly ruined apart from the grace of God.

I have watched football on Sundays, I have watched movies that used the Lord's name in vain.

Now, what will happen to me when I stand before my redeemer's throne.
I don't believe in purgatory though I once did.

Will I have less crowns to to offer back to the Lord, will I be given less responsibility in heavenly politics. I have already failed at these points that we are debating so tell me, what will happen to me?
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I think you may be put in charge of the drama team Bob...:lol:

On a serious note, nothing will happen. You have been aquitted.
 
I disagree Kevin. All self righteouss piety of ritualistic fasting of some sort, in this case fasting from drama, is done to please God in their own eyes. I need not spend a smidgeon of anything to prove such an absurdety, since nothing in scripture other than a wrong interpretation on one truth has led to such nonsense. Dont you find such self serving striving as not watching drama, or no dancing, or no drinking or whatever else is on this list somewhere a bit contrary to liberty in Christ? Those who think that not watching drama, closens their walk with God are deceived into believing a lie. Keep those thoughts to oneself. I do not want to hear it, and neither does Christ want this as a witness to true humility and enlightenment as bert called it. IT is an offense. The Apostle Paul thought he was serving God when persecuting believers. He thought he was doing the right thing. Yet we learn he was not and was stopped by our Lord. Anyone who calls such peccadillos as drama, dancing, etc etc sin, are likened to those in MAtt 7. "Lord, didt we warn people of the dangers of drama, didnt we warn them of dancing, didnt we warn them of this or that?" I knew ye not!!!!!!!!!!!! You did it for self sactimoniuos sanctification. begone from me.
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"Self-serving striving"??? I just don't get that attitude. "Liberty in Christ" is a wonderfully elastic thing when we want it to be. There are a number of highly respectable theologians who, if I remember correctly, proclaim Christian liberty to be nothing more than liberty from the chains of sin, Satan, self-glorification, (and two more things I can't recall right now - it's awfully late here).

So where you may see 'self-serving striving' in service to Christ and seeking to be 'unspotted by the world', I see a beautiful and full submission to His will for my life (though I fall down enough to create callouses on my knees and forehead). But what you see as simple liberty in Christ, others may as see someone who has taken a concept, blown it to smithereens, and relabelled outright licentiousness "liberty" - and in Christ's name no less!!

"Lord, didt we warn people of the dangers of drama, didnt we warn them of dancing, didnt we warn them of this or that?" I knew ye not!!!!!!!!!!!! You did it for self sactimoniuos sanctification. begone from me.
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This is a tone and attidue which I simply cannot support. When a brother warns you of (what he considers sin), you call him sanctimonious and basically a heretic (as you see him believing in self-sanctification) or at least grieviously in error while you trumpet the very same attitude but from a contrary view from the other end of the pitch. Not stopping there, you call wise and respected theologians fools and dismiss their opinions out of hand, considering your opinion so vastly superior that you need not even defend your gainsaying of their foolish notions.

I do not want to hear it, and neither does Christ want this as a witness to true humility and enlightenment
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Thankfully, you have full knowledge of the mind of Christ.

Don't you see this as overstepping the bounds of theological decency by just a mile or two??
 
kvanlaan said:
"Self-serving striving"??? I just don't get that attitude. "Liberty in Christ" is a wonderfully elastic thing when we want it to be. There are a number of highly respectable theologians who, if I remember correctly, proclaim Christian liberty to be nothing more than liberty from the chains of sin, Satan, self-glorification, (and two more things I can't recall right now - it's awfully late here).
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I wouldnt give them that much repect on this notion if that is all they find as liberty in Christ to mean.

kvanlaan said:
So where you may see 'self-serving striving' in service to Christ and seeking to be 'unspotted by the world', I see a beautiful and full submission to His will for my life (though I fall down enough to create callouses on my knees and forehead). But what you see as simple liberty in Christ, others may as see someone who has taken a concept, blown it to smithereens, and relabelled outright licentiousness "liberty" - and in Christ's name no less!!
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How is me saying that drama is not sinful, nor dancing, nor having our picture taken, nor screennames = licentious behavior? And how can you say that to receive a warning on such peccadilos is biblical? Do you not see it exactly as the pharissee spoke about the disciples picking grain and not washing their hands?

kvanlaan said:
This is a tone and attidue which I simply cannot support. When a brother warns you of (what he considers sin), you call him sanctimonious and basically a heretic (as you see him believing in self-sanctification) or at least grieviously in error while you trumpet the very same attitude but from a contrary view from the other end of the pitch. Not stopping there, you call wise and respected theologians fools and dismiss their opinions out of hand, considering your opinion so vastly superior that you need not even defend your gainsaying of their foolish notions.
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Exactly, what HE considers sin, not what Christ considers sin. I put this in the same category as holy days of obligation and not eating meat on fridays during lent. I have defended it with scripture Kevin. Yet you will not interact with it. Again, it is exactly as the mishna with all these traditions of men.

As I mentioned in post 116, Christ settles it. Let us interact with the writ please. We both are arguing too much without the Word behind us.

Christ settles this discussion.

Mark 7:15, "There is nothing that enters a man from the outside which can defile him; but the things which come out of him, those are the things that defile him."


"Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, 'This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me, and in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men', for laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men...the washing of pitchers and cups, and many other such things you do".


The Pharisees and scribes thought that all kinds of rituals and traditions would please God as much as they pleased men, but God shows that He is not impressed with some outward, external attempt at pleasing Him in the flesh, for man lost the message whenever he attempted to conceptualize the truths of God in a new carnal external act. Therefore, drama, dancing, etc etc etc will nto defile a man. He is already defiled, yet cleansed through the sacrafice of Christ.
 
Robert, I think Galatians 5 is very pertinent here.

Galatians 5:13-
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
 
Augusta said:
Robert, I think Galatians 5 is very pertinent here.

Galatians 5:13-
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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I love these scriptures. Yet I honestly do not know what they have to do with the conversation... Unless of course you are saying warning others that watching drama is a sin, it is fighting against the flesh. If this is the case, then I disagree.
 
Perhaps the whole issue could be boiled down to one question: "What are your besetting sins?" It is conceivable that some might be easily entangled into all sorts of sins by watching or participating in drama: Idolotry, lust, hatred...

But it is equally conceivable that some are not so easily sucked into those same sins by watching or participating in drama.

People are different. My wife loves to watch those medical shows about surgery and massive tumors etc but it makes me sick to my stomach!

Let's endeavor to be sensitive to each other's struggles while at the same time not 'projecting' our struggles onto each other. I struggle with gluttony, therefore I might have a different outlook on brownie consumption than those aggravating people who can just eat whatever they want and never gain a pound!

I wonder also if heated arguments about liberty vs. legalism oftentimes stem from one's background. Those who have been liberated from legalism may argue a tad too vehemently against rules while those who have been liberated from 'libertinism' argue too vehemently for them.
 
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
Exactly, what HE considers sin, not what Christ considers sin. I put this in the same category as holy days of obligation and not eating meat on fridays during lent. I have defended it with scripture Kevin. Yet you will not interact with it. Again, it is exactly as the mishna with all these traditions of men.

As I mentioned in post 116, Christ settles it. Let us interact with the writ please. We both are arguing too much without the Word behind us.
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True enough. But the last two posts give plenty of such scripture - you can then say "but that's not what I think it means." We can then go back and forth on what this and that means to me, forever talking in circles. I can give you a stack of scripture from Paul on these things and you can then dismiss their significance with "but that's not what it means."

Instead of seesawing back and forth on this, we could just go to the confessions, which, we should all be in agreement, are accurate summaries of the Biblical texts.

So again I ask you, how do you defend your position in view of Q&A 139?
 
Augusta said:
Robert, I think Galatians 5 is very pertinent here. Galatians 5:13-*13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. *14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. *15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. *16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. *17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. *18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. *19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, *20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, *21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. *22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, *23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. *24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. *25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. *26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
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This argument only works if I am practicing these things.* But you say, "Aren't you endorsing them by participating in the medium in which they are communicating?"** Common sense, and all non-silliness requires me to say no.* I know a lot of people thought I blasphemed when I pointed many of these elements in the Bible (didn't make the elements go away, btw).** My point was you can view/read something without committing sin.* If you say no, then on that logic--and we are sticking to logical formulations otherwise this entire thread is nonsense-- you must say reading the Bible is sin.*
 
BertMulder said:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; *19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. *20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: *21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. *22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, *23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. *24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: *25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. *26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: *27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. *28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; *29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, *30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, *31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
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Are you saying I should be put to death because I have a copy of Les Miserables by my bed?* Are you now a theonomist?

This thread is now a joke and I contend the moderators shut it down.
 
Essentially what y'all are advocating is monasticism of the worst sort. You want to fight against sin, well and good. But you have located the antithesis in the medium of creation, and not in sin itself. (I got that one from RC Sproul, so he is probably blaspheming too). This is a textbook case of gnosticism.

The only way for y'all to be consistent is to join a monastery. Otherwise, when you step out into the world, you will be surrounded by sin. Given your arguments above, that is a participation in sin.

Oops, there are sins in monasteries too. See Luther.
 
Rubbish - be in the world, for sure. I don't think anyone is advocating monasticism, it's a red herring. We must be in the world to a degree, or how else will we fulfill the Great Commission? If you are then saying that we are advocating neglecting the work that Christ Himself has commissioned us to do, I wholeheartedly disagree.

Associating with sinners too, how do we avoid it? You simply can't - it's a non-starter. But when you associate with them, associate with a purpose. It is a challenge of epic proportions. How is watching drama interacting with the world with a purpose?
 
Rubbish - be in the world, for sure. I don't think anyone is advocating monasticism, it's a red herring. We must be in the world, or how else will we fulfill the Great Commission? If you are then saying that we are advocating neglecting the work that Christ himself has commissioned us to do, I wholeheartedly disagree.
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Finally, someone sees the thrust of my argument. Now to interact with it...

Associating with sinners too, how do we avoid it? You simply can't - it's a non-starter. But when you associate with them, associate with a purpose. It is a challenge of epic proportions. How is watching drama interacting with the world with a purpose?
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Again, this raises the question: are all non logico-systematic (e.g., story, poetry) forms of communication sinful? I maintain that we can do precisely that--tell stories to sinners for a purpose. I think this is a rather blase point granted hundreds of years ago.
 
Again, this raises the question: are all non logico-systematic (e.g., story, poetry) forms of communication sinful? I maintain that we can do precisely that--tell stories to sinners for a purpose. I think this is a rather blase point granted hundreds of years ago.
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Sure. If stories were out, that would cancel out illustrations in sermons.

But there's a gulf of difference between chillin' with your average movie/play and making an illustration in a sermon. When the average person speaks of 'drama', do they speak of stories with morals? I think not.
 
kvanlaan said:
Again, this raises the question: are all non logico-systematic (e.g., story, poetry) forms of communication sinful? I maintain that we can do precisely that--tell stories to sinners for a purpose. I think this is a rather blase point granted hundreds of years ago.
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Sure. If stories were out, that would cancel out illustrations in sermons.
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I will give you credit. You really do catch the force of my arguemnts. Most don't.

But there's a gulf of difference between chillin' with your average movie/play and making an illustration in a sermon. When the average person speaks of 'drama', do they speak of stories with morals? I think not.
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I actually think they do, or at least the speak of stories while they are looking for meaning/reference points. Postmoderns, and I border on one on certain levels, really do want metanarrative and meaning, despite their denials.

Drama, literature, Jesus' stories, are powerful weapons in our current cultural clime. Few things are more powerful than a parable. If we acted the parable out, would it necessarily become sinful?
 
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