Exorcisms Today

[BrianLanier]

I was wondering about exorcisms today. I had thought that this was no longer happening today as it was unique to the apostles times as were certain gifts of the Spirit.

However, I was reading J.I Packers book, [u:3741a74f9e]Concise Theology[/u:3741a74f9e], on demons, and he says Christ had authorized the 12 and the 70 to perform exorcisms and that they were doing it by Christ's authority, which HE gave them. This sounded fine until he added that some exorcisms still take place today in pastoral situations.

Unfortunately, he does not expound on this. It seems as though he saying two different things. First, he seems to attribute something special to the 12 and the 70 casting out demons because THEY were AUTHORIZED by Christ to do so. Then he says that pastors do so today but gives nothing to demonstrate that they have authority to do so now.

So to make some distinctions and ask some clarifying questions:

1) Were the 12 and the 70 that Packer mentions able to cast out demons because they were authorized to do so FROM Christ?

2) If no, then on what authority were they able to cast them out?

3) If yes, then does this authority have some type of succession down to us?

4) If there is no succession to us, then how can Packer say what he said, or is he just wrong?

5) From Scripture how can we show that exorcisms do or do not happen today?

Any help would be appreciated.

BTW, I am a cessastionist.

 

[Saiph]

I do not think being a cessationist removes the possibility of exorcism.

Where does it say we cannot pray and fast for those under demonic possession/opression.

Seems like that was the preffered method for the really tough ones anyway.

Mar 9:26 And [the spirit] cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
Mar 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
Mar 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.


These were disciples who seemingly had "the gift".

So I guess apostolic excorcism may not happen, but general excorcism certainly does.

 

[BrianLanier]

[quote:932b37d015][i:932b37d015]Originally posted by Wintermute[/i:932b37d015]
I do not think being a cessationist removes the possibility of exorcism.

Where does it say we cannot pray and fast for those under demonic possession/opression.

Seems like that was the preffered method for the really tough ones anyway.

Mar 9:26 And [the spirit] cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
Mar 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
Mar 9:28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?
Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.


These were disciples who seemingly had "the gift".

So I guess apostolic excorcism may not happen, but general excorcism certainly does. [/quote:932b37d015]

What is the difference between apostolic exorcism and general exorcism? Is the method of exorcism different? If NOT, then why the distinction?

 

[Saiph]

I guess there is no "Gift" of exorcism.

I was wrong. Maybe it was included in the uber cool miracle gift along with handling snakes and drinking poison.

 

[BrianLanier]

Anybody else want to tackle this?

 

[pastorway]

Exorcism is not a gift and demon possession has not stopped. So what evidence would there be to support the claim that there were no exorcisms today?

Phillip

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

[quote:a332f68f49="pastorway"]Exorcism is not a gift and demon possession has not stopped. So what evidence would there be to support the claim that there were no exorcisms today?

Phillip[/quote:a332f68f49]You put into words what I was thinking.

 

[Scott]

People not affiliated with the apostolic ministry (not part of the 70 or 12 or otherwise authorized) could cast out demons and they had Jesus' approval.

[quote:ed1e0b9dc1]"Master," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said, "for whoever is not against you is for you."[/quote:ed1e0b9dc1]

Luke 9:49-50.

 

[Ianterrell]

Ok here's my theory:

Since demon possesion was never normative in redemptive history it's important to examine when demonic activity was going on in the Bible. Obviously the highest concentration of demonic possesion took place during the transition period between the Old and New Testaments. The demons seem to swarm in the Gospels and in Acts and then fade away from the narrative. I feel that the demonic activity was prominent for the purpose of displaying God's glory in 1) God's own complete sovereingn control over all creation was exerted and shown truly full 2) Christ's Messiahship and role as the enemy of the Great Serpent was shown 3) Christ's triumph over Satan is made complete for the Kingdom of Christ 4) and the benefits of triumphing with Christ is extended to his elect.

1) The degree God's sovereignty over creation is declared to be unstoppable. His will is exerted. Ps 115:3; De 4:35,39 His glorious rule extends to all existence ; Ps 24:1

2)Christ was the Messiah and promised enemy of Satan, the Serpent, in Gen 3:15. The reprobate are declared united with Satan as his seed (Ps 58:4, Ps 140:8), God declares that there will be a conflict between Satan's seed and the Woman's seed. The Seed spoken of is the church corporate their is true antogonism between the church and the kingdom of Satan who hates Christ's bride, but here we deal with Christ being the Seed promised principally in this text. He undertook to battle Satan (Is 27:1), the fallen angel, and "destroy his works". "And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood (Rev 12:15)."

3)Christ's triumph over Satan is not to be overlooked. He overcame Satan's works (1 John 3:8) through His sufferings (you shall strike his heel, he shal bruise your head Gen 3), his death on the cross was visually a defeat but really as a redeemer he was winning souls. He overcame in his ministry against the perversions of the Phariaic law, and through preaching the gospel bringing souls into the kingdom, and of course by crushing Satan and his dogs. This defeat of Satan is already/not yet. He has vanquished the Serpent and yet the consummation of the defeat will be finalized when Satan and his seed are thrown into the lack of fire forever Matthew 13:25-40; Rev 19:19,20; 20:10

4)and finally, genuine benefits have been transmitted to the chosen people. We have peace because we will overcome with Chris, John 16:33. 1 John 5:4. Re 17:14; Ps 14:19, 2 Thess 1:10:. The church's salvation is secure against Satan's gates 1 Peter 1:4,5. Matt 16:18.

The significance of the unusual satanic activity in Christ's day was a historical redemptive event, Christ warring against Satan. The exorcisms accompanied the transition into the NC. The possessions of individuals waned progressively, this does not mean necessarily that all demonic has ceased just that its frequency in the NT is really an unique development and in no way represents the norm for Christian life. These were miracles, truly and they had a specific place in the history of our redemption.

 

[dado6]

Scripture shows that possession, like predictive prophesy and miracles are adjuncts and amplifiers of revelation. Demon possession gave demonstration of the authority of Jesus and the apostles. I do not think it is any more complex than that.

In any event, how would we possibly know if a person is possessed? Where is the authoritative list of symptoms and behaviors?

Thanks,
Rob

 

[Scott]

Ian:

If you examine post-apostolic church history you will see allot of records of demonic activity. The casting out of demons was one of things the early church was known for. In fact, it was one of their chief apologetic arguments (along with miraculous healings). Tertullian, for example, challenged unbelievers to bring any demon possessed person to him and he would have him exorcised to prove the power of Christ. He also noted that it would probably be hard to find one, as most had been cast out. For more, see Ramsay MacMullen's Christianizing the Roman Empire (New Haven and London: Yale University Press, 1984). It is a great book.

Athanasius made similar points. From his On the Incarnation:

[quote:c2f5990a82]If He did not rise, but is still dead, how is it that He routs and persecutes and overthrows the false gods, whom unbelievers think to be alive, and the evil spirits whom they worship? For where Christ is named, idolatry is destroyed and the fraud of evil spirits is exposed; indeed, no such spirit can endure that Name, but takes to flight on sound of it. This is the work of One Who lives, not of one dead; and, more than that, it is the work of God.
[/quote:c2f5990a82]

Anyway, I think that you see a decrease or elimination of overt demon activity with the spread of the gospel. Where that gospel has not penetrated there tends to be allot more activity, even today.

Scott

 

[Ianterrell]

So if I were a missionary today travelling to some untouched region in the Pacific, I should be prepared to exorcise demons? Are there any examples of missionaries today from a historic protestant tradition encountering demons?

I didn't say that demon activity stopped when John the Apostle died. But it certainly was connected to the apostolic ministry however, since the New Covenant was still transitioning into its fullness in their day.

 

[Scott]

Ian:

PCA missionaries have told me about demonic encounters in remote areas of the world (such as remote parts of Africa).

If you were going off to a similar place, I would not be surprised about demonic activity.

Demonic activity is connected with the darkness of Satan over the world, which has been present since the fall. The lessening of demonic activity is associated with the spread of the light of Christ and the defeat of the devil.

 

[VirginiaHuguenot]

I too am curious about the subject of exorcism today from a Reformed, Protestant point of view. How does one distinguish between lunacy and demonic possession? Are there any verifiable accounts of Reformed, Protestant ministers who have cast out devils? Or are modern-day accounts confined to Hollywood and the RCC? What are we to make of RCC exorcisms? Are there any sound post-Reformation Protestant writings on the subject?

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Roman Catholic exorcism is interesting as something happens but is it from God? Should we throw away every bit of information they have and start from scratch or should we take into account some things the RCC says? (although not as proof of course but only to keep in mind) I think this links strongly into the debate over whether a Catholic can be saved. Depending on your opinion there I think the debate could swing either way.

For a Catholics opinion on exorcism I found this site a while ago.

http://www.catholic-exorcism.org/pages/book-pray/pray-home.html

... although I just looked at it and found he is hardly an orthodox Catholic but see what you think anyway :blah1:

That wasnt the site I was looking for... the one I wanted had an older man at the top with a cross...

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

Someone posted this verse before but it would be interesting to add it in again when considering whether Catholics really can do exorcisms...

Mark 9:38-39
[quote:d347b22c68]38"Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
39"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, [/quote:d347b22c68]