Expose on Doug Phillips

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Possibly, but I would take it with a grain of salt.

Someone ignored the chalcedon link I gave because they weren't objective (who is?) and are friends with Phillips. So be it. I still didn't post the other link I have saved in my files which is absolutely damning (to the case, not to the person's salvation) to the other side. I won't post it for ecclesiastical reasons.

Jacob,

I did read your link too & thanks for posting it, I understand there are two side & I'm trying to be objective. The question I asked should be verifiable & I would really like to know from anyone who knows this church. Is it by invitation only?

blessings,
 
Whether those threads were like cases the other mods can judge. But the details of this lady's case are not going to be rehearsed here or the case retried. The PB mods, I think I can safely say, are generally committed to the principle that the board is not a church and if we are more scrupulous now in how we apply that to discussions, so be it. So I repeat,

All, feel free to discuss if so and so is a paedocommunist or whatever, but as often stated PB is not going to resolve controversial discipline cases, botched or otherwise. Churches hardly do this well, and PB is not a church court with any standing. Please do not rehearse this one here for review.
 
Whether those threads were like cases the other mods can judge. But the details of this lady's case are not going to be rehearsed here or the case retried. The PB mods, I think I can safely say, are generally committed to the principle that the board is not a church and if we are more scrupulous now in how we apply that to discussions, so be it. So I repeat,

:amen:

My questions are directed in trying to discern if the "extreme" patriarchal churches tend to lead to a pattern of spiritual abuse & exclusetivity that would make bringing a non Christian to church problematic. I am wondering what connection there is between the "extreme" patriarchal movement & FV theology. If my questions are not appropriate for this forum please let me know & I'll gladly delete them.
 
I am wondering what connection there is between the "extreme" patriarchal movement & FV theology. If my questions are not appropriate for this forum please let me know & I'll gladly delete them.

About as much connection as "covenant theology leads to FV." Doug Phillips has openly opposed Wilson on justification, covenant, etc. True, there are some patriarchal churches that are FV (I haven't seen any, heard of any, etc.). Most extreme patriarchal churches are baptistic, whereas the FV, to put it mildly, is not baptistic.
 
I brought up FV and only did so to clarify PBs stance on paedocommunion. I in no way was suggesting that VF or Phillips or patristic churches were FV. Sorry for any confusion.
 
What I mean to say is that fathers in that church -- according to a first-hand report by someone that I trust -- determine to whom in their family they will administer the sacrament of the Lord's Supper and then administer the sacrament to those individuals (ie., it is the father's discretion who in their family they will administer the sacrament to and if age is an issue it is an issue for the father to decide). And according to the report of Jennifer Epstein, sons may administer the sacrament to their mothers when the father is absent.

Andrew,

I have heard the same reports.

I am very suspicious when it comes to Vision Forum.


Grace to you,
Steve
 
:amen:

My questions are directed in trying to discern if the "extreme" patriarchal churches tend to lead to a pattern of spiritual abuse & exclusetivity that would make bringing a non Christian to church problematic. I am wondering what connection there is between the "extreme" patriarchal movement & FV theology. If my questions are not appropriate for this forum please let me know & I'll gladly delete them.

Andrew,
I have heard the same reports.
I am very suspicious when it comes to Vision Forum.
Grace to you,
Steve
I have no problems with fears or suspicions; I have my own; but (and I'm speaking generally, not to these posts) if they are veiled accusations back it up or don't say it. And the specific discipline case as already noted will not be covered here or retried. Blogs can do that. In fact, if anyone is hot to expose Phillips or Vision Forum, start your own blog.:2cents:
 
Not the norm though

Mr. Lewis, I had been in a Credo-Baptist church that permitted and was starting up with paedo-communion...beyond professing children.

I do not believe this to be the norm in churches though (credeobaptist churches practicing paedocommunion). On the contrary, this would be an exception.
 
I beg to differ

Andrew,

I have heard the same reports.

I am very suspicious when it comes to Vision Forum.


Grace to you,
Steve

I beg to differ. I have only had positive experiences with the Vision Forum materials and staff. I think Doug Phillips is a man of God and is being used in a huge way to help complacent fathers turn their hearts back toward their children.

Why would you say you are so suspicious? What has your exposure to Doug Phillips and Vision Forum been?
 
The problem I see here is that some are suspisious of VF for reasons that they cannot bring forth because it would be gossip. But the problem is that by saying that you have dirt on a man but then refuse to say what it is causes everyone's imaginations to go crazy. Everyone starts to imagine things that are actually worse than the truth. It might be best for everyone just to leave the man alone and let things play out. There is nothing that VF sells, that I have seen, that could be harmful. Maybe some don't want to attend his church, but then many PBers would not want to attend my church either. :2cents:
 
I hope noone every does an expose on me.:D

I'm working on it now! ;)

I could use some help coming up with a catcy name for my website...

So far all I got is "Can a Baptist be reformed??? & What so Blue about that Ridge???" It looks kinda-sorta greenish from here.
 
The problem I see here is that some are suspisious of VF for reasons that they cannot bring forth because it would be gossip. But the problem is that by saying that you have dirt on a man but then refuse to say what it is causes everyone's imaginations to go crazy. Everyone starts to imagine things that are actually worse than the truth. It might be best for everyone just to leave the man alone and let things play out. There is nothing that VF sells, that I have seen, that could be harmful. Maybe some don't want to attend his church, but then many PBers would not want to attend my church either. :2cents:

this might be referring to me but I was actually holding stuff back on the bloggers who are hating on VF. I actually like VF's catalogue.
 
The problem I see here is that some are suspisious of VF for reasons that they cannot bring forth because it would be gossip. But the problem is that by saying that you have dirt on a man but then refuse to say what it is causes everyone's imaginations to go crazy. Everyone starts to imagine things that are actually worse than the truth. It might be best for everyone just to leave the man alone and let things play out. There is nothing that VF sells, that I have seen, that could be harmful. Maybe some don't want to attend his church, but then many PBers would not want to attend my church either. :2cents:


I'm not interested in what FV sells period though we do have a bugle we bought for our son from them.
I'm interested in knowing about the "extreme" patriarchal movement. As I have said I have questions about the whole thing, exclusesivity, shunning families, discipline, education, accountability, evangelism etc but I assure you I'll refrain from asking anymore since it's obvious my questions are being miss understood & I'll just ignore the whole movement & just hope I never find myself having to know more.
 
whole thing, exclusesivity, shunning families, discipline, education, accountability, evangelism etc but I assure you I'll refrain from asking anymore since it's obvious my questions are being miss understood & I'll just ignore the whole movement & just hope I never find myself having to know more.

It's not that they are being "ignored" (your questions), but this is a forum and there are about 10 rabbit trails per post. To answer one of your questions, I don't think they have said rules about "invitation only" to church. That's a pretty hefty deal and it would probably be best to go to the horses' mouth.

As to discipline, if it is merely church discipline, then it is biblical. Now, they might go about it wrongly, but I doubt anybody here has any firsthand experience to say whether they do or don't, so we have to assume innocent until proven guiilty.

Per education, they homee school, but so do many in Reformedom.

Per "shunning", I like this one. Be careful in reading this accusation. It can either be, "Such and such family was excommunicated for biblical reasons and don't like the consequences of it." Or it can be more serious, but again, we need more reliable firsthand information to verify that.

Per accountability, I would need more reliable info (what was the question per accountability?)

Per evangelism: I think they believe in it. I don't know why they wouldn't.
 
this might be referring to me but I was actually holding stuff back on the bloggers who are hating on VF. I actually like VF's catalogue.

I actually was not directing my comments at anyone, but rereading the post I can see why some would think so. I was just reflecting on how these issues are difficult. No one wants to gossip, but at the same time these accusations are made public. I guess, being a VF fan, I wouldn't want his ministry to suffer because of internet accusations which are a dime a dozen.

As for questions about 'extreme patriarchy', I don't know what that is. Some people think 'any' patriarchy is extreme. :lol:
 
As to discipline, if it is merely church discipline, then it is biblical. Now, they might go about it wrongly, but I doubt anybody here has any firsthand experience to say whether they do or don't, so we have to assume innocent until proven guiilty.

Per education, they homee school, but so do many in Reformedom.

Per "shunning", I like this one. Be careful in reading this accusation. It can either be, "Such and such family was excommunicated for biblical reasons and don't like the consequences of it." Or it can be more serious, but again, we need more reliable firsthand information to verify that.

Per accountability, I would need more reliable info (what was the question per accountability?)

Per evangelism: I think they believe in it. I don't know why they wouldn't.


What I mean by discipline is, what exactly is disciplined?
The items below also cover my education questions.

For example are the items below subject to discipline? From what I read it would mean a woman cannot work outside her home or send the kids to Christian school nor would it be allowed to send a daughter to college.

From the VF site:

http://www.visionforumministries.org/home/about/biblical_patriarchy.aspx

14. While unmarried women may have more flexibility in applying the principle that women were created for a domestic calling, it is not the ordinary and fitting role of women to work alongside men as their functional equals in public spheres of dominion (industry, commerce, civil government, the military, etc.). The exceptional circumstance (singleness) ought not redefine the ordinary, God-ordained social roles of men and women as created. (Gen. 2:18ff.; Josh. 1:14; Jdg. 4; Acts 16:14)



17. Fathers are sovereign over the training of their children and, with their wives, are the children’s chief teachers. Christian parents are bound to obey the command personally to walk beside and train their children. Any approach to Christian education ought to recognize and facilitate the role of fathers and mothers as the primary teachers of their children. (Deut. 4:9; 6:6ff.; Ps. 78:3-8; Prov. 1:8; Eph. 6:4; )



19. Since the educational mandate belongs to parents and they are commanded personally to walk beside and train their children, they ought not to transfer responsibility for the educational process to others. However, they have the liberty to delegate components of that process. While they should exercise great caution and reserve in doing this, and the more so the less mature the child, it is prudent to take advantage of the diversity of gifts within the body of Christ and enjoy the help and support that comes with being part of a larger community with a common purpose. (1 Cor. 12:14ff.; Gal. 4:1,2; 6:2; Eph. 4:16)



By accountability I mean, are there any courts beside themselves, how does one appeal a decision?
By evangelism I wonder how the non believer can fit in, if they have all this extra biblical criteria required.
 
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