Extreme fear and doubt. please HELP because I feel like all hope is lost.

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deuteronomist

Puritan Board Freshman
I was listening to Gary Demar on the canon press app. He uses the same "it was worse before" argument.
Daniel wasn't in a worse situation than we are. Things aren't so deadly (for now) but Babylon was largely disinterested in the Jews and thus made no effort to expunge their religion. Babylon didn't burn their books, and didn't abduct their children to brainwash them in the ways of Babylon.

Babylon didn't have nuclear warheads, didn't have algorithms which can suppress the truth, and didn't exist in a world where there is NO ESCAPE no matter where you go.
We live in that world that Daniel didn't. the Turks invading Europe wasn't as bad as this, roman persecution wasn't as bad as our situation. No one is taking everything that has changed to it's logical conclusions.

Telling me that God has delivered us before provides no comfort, because the delivery we have been granted has not lasted in any meaningful way since the fall of the roman empire. There is absolutely no period in history comparable to now. People are unwilling to admit what is going on is bigger, more powerful, and unstoppable by any means OTHER than divine intervention.
God seems to have provided no discernable divine intervention as Christians were slowly burned out of existence in the middle east.
Babylon couldn't remotely sniff you out based on who you email or what you say even privately. Babylon couldn't cut off your bank account, take away all of your money, and in fact, couldn't wipe out everyone's savings worldwide overnight. That would be very easy to do, overnight today.

Big tech and alphabet agencies can, and easily purge us out of existence, one way or another.
traditional wisdom does not provide comfort because it literally doesn't apply anymore.

Please don't ban me for this post. I DO believe. But I'm increasingly under assault by the realization of the reality we now live in. I'm asking here because PB because I can think of no better place to go. There's plenty of useless 'Christian' forums which don't have a very good grounding.
 
Brother, what do you fear? Consider Paul's words: "For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Now if I live on in the flesh, this means fruitful work for me; and I don’t know which one I should choose. I am torn between the two. I long to depart and be with Christ—which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23). Consider also Jesus' words: "Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). You are probably right in your assessment of the current world. I feel it, too. But it is all about perspective.
 
God will deliver us from our sins. He has promised so to do. Sometimes that may mean delivering us from this present world, blessed be His Name. Place your hope in your eternal inheritance, namely the LORD Jesus Christ, and these earthly paltry things will be of less pain to separate from.
 
Brother, what do you fear? Consider Paul's words: "For me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Now if I live on in the flesh, this means fruitful work for me; and I don’t know which one I should choose. I am torn between the two. I long to depart and be with Christ—which is far better" (Philippians 1:21-23). Consider also Jesus words: "Don’t fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). You are probably right in your assessment of the current world. I feel it, too. But it is all about perspective.
I fear the gradual and permanently elimination of the Church. I know Jesus said He will be with us until the end of the age, but it looks like He isn't. It isn't my destruction, it's the defeat of the Gospel itself. Let me be honest. I have several significant mental conditions, which contribute to why I feel this way. I'm not the most stable person in the world. However, I think what I'm saying can still be regarded independently of that.
 
God has promised that Christ is the Victor. His church will not fail. He rules in ways we understand not, and I promise every form of earthly affliction, oppression, perceived injustice, is part of His ruling and reigning in this world. Nothing escapes His grip, and He does all things well.
 
God has promised that Christ is the Victor. His church will not fail. He rules in ways we understand not, and I promise every form of earthly affliction, oppression, perceived injustice, is part of His ruling and reigning in this world. Nothing escapes His grip, and He does all things well.
dming you with an important question.
 
I think there are several different dimensions to your original post, some of which are unprecedented, and some of which are old challenges in new forms.

1. What prospect is there for the success or survival of the church? Not much. But our comfort isn't in probabilities. No hope but divine intervention does describe a previous situation: when Christ was buried in the tomb.
2. There are new tools that people didn't have before, it's true. But incompetence, corruption, and intramural competition remain. Our earthly chances of a comfortable life have always had more to do with the weakness or limitations of rulers than with their benevolence and probity. There are many double-edged weapons out there; if money can be erased, so can social credit scores. It sounds like you've taken a red pill and see that what is presented on your screens is a narrative crafted to keep unpleasant people in control. There's a black pill of despair when you see how far their tentacles extend. But there's also a white pill of noticing that their win condition is entire hegemony when they can't even secure their own devices or stop people being red-pilled all the time.
3. What are we hoping for? Our Lord was falsely accused, wrongfully arrested, cruelly tortured, and unjustly killed. That was how he triumphed. Should we expect the success of the church to be understood in entirely different terms? "As dying, and behold, we live."
 
I fear the gradual and permanently elimination of the Church. I know Jesus said He will be with us until the end of the age, but it looks like He isn't. It isn't my destruction, it's the defeat of the Gospel itself. Let me be honest. I have several significant mental conditions, which contribute to why I feel this way. I'm not the most stable person in the world. However, I think what I'm saying can still be regarded independently of that.
I will fully admit, my big anxieties are currently, fear of my belief in Christ for my salvation being in vain. Especially with the events going on around the world. The second one, is taking the vaccine. So far, my employment has only strongly encouraged it.

That the church be wiped off the face of the earth? Historically, the countries and regions that committed the worse persecution usually saw the greatest growth. We in North America have yet to see real persecution.

God will preserve his church. He is the only one in existence that has plan A, follows plan A, and it's executed as planned. We don't see it very often, but looking back, He had his and in it.

Sometimes, that might be some very hard times for us Christians. But God knows what the greater good is.

There are definite validities to your anxiety, however, I recommend spending more time reading your bible, and if you can get a copy, read Dane Orthlund's "Gentle and Lowly". It has appeased my anxiety much so far.

I know many of our postings may not relieve your anxiety, and we all have some to different degrees, however, read your bible and spend more time on your knees. I know that's very clichée, however, He is the only one that can give you some relief.

If you know a good counselor, (preferably a Christian), setting an appointment with them might be a good idea.
 
I fear the gradual and permanently elimination of the Church. I know Jesus said He will be with us until the end of the age, but it looks like He isn't. It isn't my destruction, it's the defeat of the Gospel itself. Let me be honest. I have several significant mental conditions, which contribute to why I feel this way. I'm not the most stable person in the world. However, I think what I'm saying can still be regarded independently of that.
I'm so sorry that you're experiencing this kind of severe fear, brother. I think it's good that you recognize some other mental factors are likely coming into play in causing you to feel this way and I hope that you are seeking help to address those.
 
There is absolutely no period in history comparable to now.
Due to the sensitivities of some of my fellow PBers, I'll self censor and go with "balderdash' instead of something more earthy.

But loose translation of Martin Luther sums up the end game nicely:

the body they may kill:
God's truth abideth still;
his kingdom is forever!
 
I think perspective can help. There really is nothing new under the sun. Being burnt alive and beheaded and stoned to death was a much more common death to Christians in times past in the times of Paul and Daniel. Death was an everyday occurrence to EVERYONE once upon a time whether by conquest or war or natural deaths from the elements or disease or wild animals. While many Christians still face persecution today even in those same extreme forms, it has become less and less as time and history has gone on.

We might not always see the Gospel in our current locale or nation spreading as it once did or as it could be, but there are MILLIONS more people in the house of faith TODAY at this very moment than even EXISTED in the world at the time of Jesus Christ's incarnation. Is that not reason to rejoice that the Gospel has spread and is spreading to all over the world? God's promise to Abraham in his progeny far outnumber the stars is STILL a present reality coming to fruition and that is the promise we must cling to--even if Scripture is closed, the "end" of all God's promises is not yet to completion. It may be that different nations or peoples can be under judgment for a time, or face persecution, or even fall from the faith...but elsewhere in the world there are further Reformations happening and keeping the torch of the Gospel passing from generation to generation. This has been true from the beginning of time to now...even at the end of Noah's flood, there was still a remnant; even in exile; even in conquest; even in loss--God has always promised his remnant and he has kept it. Christianity might not always be popular, but it is permanent and persevering through Christ.

I would dwell on the Psalms as they encapsulate the breadth of emotions from wondering where God is in our struggles, to reflections on his sustaining work throughout the ages even through difficulty. Psalm 90, Moses' Psalm, is a breathtaking look at these emotions. I wonder what times in Moses' life he also had crippling fear and doubt? And he, as many other fathers and mothers in the faith did not even always have a noble end or see their situations end nicely in their lifetime--yet they cling to the promise of God through difficulty and uncertainty. Moses, Ruth, Abraham, Mary...and the list could go on. It helps us to remember that 1) our feelings of doubt are not unnatural and our feelings of fear are not ungrounded but 2) we have seen a repeated cycle of how God preserves his people and how he reminds us of his power and presence 3) we get to learn how to go from fear to praise, from uncertainty to patience, by examples of thought and deed such as in the Psalms and narratives of the old and new testaments. I think reading these and also reading contemporary reflections on past Christian martyrs or mission works helps us to see the bigger picture of God's work through time and history, and puts our own situation in helpful context. :) Fair Sunshine, The Cloud of Witnesses, Foxe's Book of Martyrs...they can be grim at first, yet you see the impact of these voices beyond the grave. God still preserves his people...even in death.
 
I was listening to Gary Demar on the canon press app. He uses the same "it was worse before" argument.
Daniel wasn't in a worse situation than we are. Things aren't so deadly (for now) but Babylon was largely disinterested in the Jews and thus made no effort to expunge their religion. Babylon didn't burn their books, and didn't abduct their children to brainwash them in the ways of Babylon.

Babylon didn't have nuclear warheads, didn't have algorithms which can suppress the truth, and didn't exist in a world where there is NO ESCAPE no matter where you go.
We live in that world that Daniel didn't. the Turks invading Europe wasn't as bad as this, roman persecution wasn't as bad as our situation. No one is taking everything that has changed to it's logical conclusions.

Telling me that God has delivered us before provides no comfort, because the delivery we have been granted has not lasted in any meaningful way since the fall of the roman empire. There is absolutely no period in history comparable to now. People are unwilling to admit what is going on is bigger, more powerful, and unstoppable by any means OTHER than divine intervention.
God seems to have provided no discernable divine intervention as Christians were slowly burned out of existence in the middle east.
Babylon couldn't remotely sniff you out based on who you email or what you say even privately. Babylon couldn't cut off your bank account, take away all of your money, and in fact, couldn't wipe out everyone's savings worldwide overnight. That would be very easy to do, overnight today.

Big tech and alphabet agencies can, and easily purge us out of existence, one way or another.
traditional wisdom does not provide comfort because it literally doesn't apply anymore.

Please don't ban me for this post. I DO believe. But I'm increasingly under assault by the realization of the reality we now live in. I'm asking here because PB because I can think of no better place to go. There's plenty of useless 'Christian' forums which don't have a very good grounding.
All the evil, while it leaves me heartbroken in one sense, affirms the Truth of Jesus as the Only True Light. Outside of him everything is corruptible. Augustine was a genius. He was gifted intellectually but more importantly was broken and redeemed in Christ. Consider with him how God’s people alone will choose the greatest good. The rest are left to the lesser things they desire which will leave them unfulfilled. This should neither suprise nor leaves us terrified. I believe it ultimately edifies….. Jesus has already won! The plans and schemes of the wicked will be foiled! Even they know it!

“Digging a Hole in Goodness
Central to Augustine’s idea of goodness (and, consequently, evil) was the notion of being. To Augustine, anything that had being was good. God as the ground of being was perfectly good, along with everything he brought into being. This goodness was a property that came in varying degrees.

With this foundation Augustine was now prepared to answer the key issue: “Where is evil then, and whence, and how crept it in hither? What is its root, and what its seed? Or hath it no being?”1 To this Augustine answered: “Evil has no positive nature; but the loss of good has received the name ‘evil.’”2

Augustine observed that evil always injures, and such injury is a deprivation of good. If there were no deprivation, there would be no injury. Since all things were made with goodness, evil must be the privation of goodness: “All which is corrupted is deprived of good.”3

The diminution of the property of goodness is what’s called evil. Good has substantial being; evil does not. It is like a moral hole, a nothingness that results when goodness is removed. Just as a shadow is no more than a “hole” in light, evil is a hole in goodness.

To say that something is evil, then, is a shorthand way of saying it either lacks goodness, or is a lower order of goodness than what ought to have been. But the question remains: “Whence and how crept it in hither?”

Augustine observed that evil could not be chosen because there is no evil thing to choose. One can only turn away from the good, that is from a greater good to a lesser good (in Augustine’s hierarchy) since all things are good. “For when the will abandons what is above itself, and turns to what is lower, it becomes evil—not because that is evil to which it turns, but because the turning itself is wicked.”4

Evil, then, is the act itself of choosing the lesser good. To Augustine the source of evil is in the free will of persons: “And I strained to perceive what I now heard, that free-will was the cause of our doing ill.”5 Evil was a “perversion of the will, turned aside from...God” to lesser things.6 https://www.str.org/w/augustine-on-evil-1
 
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what is going on is bigger, more powerful, and unstoppable by any means OTHER than divine intervention.
While I cannot speak authoritatively for those who lived in times past, the current potentials do seem insurmountable. I also recognize that I, like most Christian in the USA, struggle with seeking means by which I, with other Christians, can bring about the spread of God's kingdom (and, of course, my own comfort). Every week I find I must confess that I am seeking my solution to the church's
dwindling size, dying influence, and visualizable extermination. Instead let us seek God's divine intervention and be ready for when He moves.

traditional wisdom does not provide comfort
Nor should it. The world would call our waiting on God "foolish". May God's wisdom comfort us and put to shame worldly wisdom.

In the meantime, let us trust in God as we walk the path He has put before us.
 
As someone who dwells on the bottle half empty quite a lot, please realize that His Gospel flourishes in the most uncanny of places.
At times, outside my home I feel like an Elijah. Most people my age have capitulated to the world and those after don't know what came before. It's saddening but, the Lord is in control and each victory is disguised as a defeat.
 
"I was listening to Gary Demar on the canon press app"

I'd stop right there. Less time on fear-mongering podcasts, news, etc. More time in Scripture.

Get an app that reads Scripture to you when you want to listen to something. Read Habbakuk, who knew all about facing danger, destruction and living in fear. And about questioning God's work in the world.

This sermon I am linking is so very excellent when dealing with anxiety. It is the first of three, and I highly recommend it to you. You are in my prayers. I know what it is to be anxious, and it's an awful thing.

 
Hello Chris / @deuteronomist,

Welcome to Babylon of the 21st century, the final Babylon! I don't think your insights are at all amiss, and those who are oblivious to them are out of touch. You can be thankful you can see the world as it is. The question for you is, How big is your God? Despite your being very small, you are still His child, and precious to Him (Jer 31:3).

So how do you see the LORD, who is seated on the throne of His majesty, overseeing the earth and all events on it with an eye to the care, preservation, and purifying of His people, with whom He shall abide in the glory of His kingdom when this brief phase of satan's being loosed for "a little season" (Rev 20:3) is over? How do you see Him – with regard to you in particular?
 
I was listening to Gary Demar on the canon press app. He uses the same "it was worse before" argument.
Daniel wasn't in a worse situation than we are. Things aren't so deadly (for now) but Babylon was largely disinterested in the Jews and thus made no effort to expunge their religion. Babylon didn't burn their books, and didn't abduct their children to brainwash them in the ways of Babylon.

Babylon didn't have nuclear warheads, didn't have algorithms which can suppress the truth, and didn't exist in a world where there is NO ESCAPE no matter where you go.
We live in that world that Daniel didn't. the Turks invading Europe wasn't as bad as this, roman persecution wasn't as bad as our situation. No one is taking everything that has changed to it's logical conclusions.

Telling me that God has delivered us before provides no comfort, because the delivery we have been granted has not lasted in any meaningful way since the fall of the roman empire. There is absolutely no period in history comparable to now. People are unwilling to admit what is going on is bigger, more powerful, and unstoppable by any means OTHER than divine intervention.
God seems to have provided no discernable divine intervention as Christians were slowly burned out of existence in the middle east.
Babylon couldn't remotely sniff you out based on who you email or what you say even privately. Babylon couldn't cut off your bank account, take away all of your money, and in fact, couldn't wipe out everyone's savings worldwide overnight. That would be very easy to do, overnight today.

Big tech and alphabet agencies can, and easily purge us out of existence, one way or another.
traditional wisdom does not provide comfort because it literally doesn't apply anymore.

Please don't ban me for this post. I DO believe. But I'm increasingly under assault by the realization of the reality we now live in. I'm asking here because PB because I can think of no better place to go. There's plenty of useless 'Christian' forums which don't have a very good grounding.
Brother - I think you're incorrect on almost everything you say. "Roman persecution wasn't as bad as our situation." You're seriously suggesting that a situation in which one could literally be lit on fire or thrown to lions is less bad than being "canceled?" Seriously? That is so patently FALSE that it alone underscores how factually wrong you are and it calls into question your sanity. It is as if you are in shock. What you need before comfort is a slap in the face to break the shock grip.

But this is what fear and despair and unbelief do - they lie to you and convince you of lies. Yes, things were worse in other times and in other places, but it is also true that in *our* place and relative time things are worse than previously. But to suggest that these are the worst times ever is sheer nonsense.

So: (1) as suggested above by others, reflect on the certain victory of Christ and the equally certain vindication of God's people. (2) I'd suggest something to help get your perspective and priorities and facts aligned correctly, and this is in line with the biblical command to "be alert" and to understand the times: While our freedoms are diminishing and our rights are being challenged, while there are storm clouds gathering, there isn't child abduction and the rulers have almost always controlled the flow of information and physical murder is worse than metaphorical murder, etc...
(3) Do a deep and meditative study of all the "do not fear" passages... there's lots of them! God does not will that his children should live in fear. You should be free even in chains!

Blessings,
Ben
 
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Of course you're right, Ben, if you're thinking only the U.S. – but if worldwide he's right. We're being slaughtered, and one can see the designs aimed at the West and Europe, not yet realized. And what you say about fear and unbelief is also right. That's what really needs to be addressed.
 
Of course you're right, Ben, if you're thinking only the U.S. – but if worldwide he's right. We're being slaughtered, and one can see the designs aimed at the West and Europe, not yet realized. And what you say about fear and unbelief is also right. That's what really needs to be addressed.
If we're thinking "worldwide" then I'd say its same old same old not *worse*... we've always been slaughtered and intensely persecuted in places. The only places really different are in the West.
 
Dear Brother Chris,

I agree with you and believe we are in the final years or decades. But at the same time I see people who barely ever had a spiritual thought in their heads talking about the book of Revelation. Wow, the bible is right sort of thing.

I will grant that some of them would put bible prophecies in with Nostradamus and other false prophets, but they are actually looking at and reading scripture, and the power of the word of God is like rock and like fire and can break through as things get worse. There are more references to the beast system and antiChrist and so forth out there on survivalist type blogs than I've seen in over 20 years.

They may take a lot of things symbolically or listen like it is Edgar Cayce or some old Catholic lady with revelations, but their brain is being penetrated with biblical images that down the road may be seeds growing into mighty oaks. The bible promises a time of latter rain and harvest that ( I think) we have yet to see but is close. Do not lose hope.

Regarding the times......with the possible ( I'd say probable) exception of pre-Noah days, nuclear activity brings us close to the end of humanity apart from some amazing discovery that undoes radiation effects. We know a retired guy who spent his life in private nuclear waste disposal. He's down near Savannah River where they tried to make the plutonium waste safer. He is in the top ten people still alive for radiation exposure; he credits that entirely to the Lord. His worst was having to grab a pipe that burst and sprayed him with radioactive water and burned his arms badly. His uncle, father, and brother and grandfather worked at Los Alamos and on nuclear sub design. He knew about Chernobyl from insiders before it was public in any way.

He said with days of weeping that Fukushima is an extinction level event. The core is in the groundwater leaking into the sea, and radioactive water will spread and evaporate globally. Decades not centuries.

Fuku is only one plant. What happens to all the rest if the grid goes down and back up generators fail? How many are on earthquake faults just in the USA? Too many.

Our magnetic field is weakening. It protects us from cosmic radiation. It was 5% a century and now more like 5% a decade. It is in the hands of God. When he pours out His bowl of wrath on the sun, well, lift up your head, your redemption draws nigh.

I've been in your place to some degree, partly because I have kids and grandkids. But I guess the surety of the coming great harvest of souls has removed the gloom. I still have a heavy prayer burden for the suffering ahead, and a hard time with the "we'll be raptured out first" people I know. I will pray for you. I think if more people understood what judgment is really like, they might struggle with fear as well. I suggest you read Lamentations, and the anguish of the prophet in Jeremiah and other OT prophets. They really went through a lot emotionally in their intercession.
 
I know Jesus said He will be with us until the end of the age, but it looks like He isn't.

Notice what you said - "it looks like" - you are being influenced by what you read and see rather than the word of God.

I suggest you seriously unplug yourself from news media, blogs, and whatever else is stoking your fear for quite awhile and invest much more time in the word of God so your mind can be properly shaped. If you need anxiety meds to help you on the way, than do that too.

And here's another thing that I have had to tell myself on many occasions - "How dare you try to divine the future!" - Other than what we are told in Scripture, we do not know the future. We have no business trying to guess or extrapolate the future beyond Scripture. To try to do so is a replacement for faith. The future belongs to the Lord and you have no business trying to pry into it or worry about it. Our intellect and extremely limited knowledge (highly influenced by media of various types) and is foolish to rely upon.
 
Chris, sometimes I feel the way you do, all is lost, but then I remind myself that God is still on the throne and HE is Sovereign. HE said He will build his church and the gates of hell shall not prevail. The Book of Revelation has already been written; the End has already been written and He will bring it about. Hold on to Jesus and cry out to him and He will hear you.
 
Turn the news off and turn off the podcasts for a week or so. Just a few days of not taking in bad news helps me when I feel worry creeping in. I actually treat that sort of fear as a sin against God, Who has told us not to fear those who merely kill the body but not the soul.

This remains my biggest pet peeve with the "Let Behind" scifi believers: Fear of men rather than fear of a holy God and His justice that I deserve. It's the tribulation they want to escape from with their "pre-trib rapture," not the judgment of God that follows upon it!

Even the venerable Rush Limbaugh advised his listeners to turn off the news and commentary every so often to maintain (or regain) some balance and sanity in a media-driven society like ours. The universe is unfolding exactly as it should, according to the design of it's Creator and Master.
 
I fear the gradual and permanently elimination of the Church. I know Jesus said He will be with us until the end of the age, but it looks like He isn't. It isn't my destruction, it's the defeat of the Gospel itself. Let me be honest. I have several significant mental conditions, which contribute to why I feel this way. I'm not the most stable person in the world. However, I think what I'm saying can still be regarded independently of that

Welcome to Babylon of the 21st century, the final Babylon! I don't think your insights are at all amiss, and those who are oblivious to them are out of touch. You can be thankful you can see the world as it is.

Greetings,

Dear Chris,

Like Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, I waited and let others speak first. I read or re-read all the posts tonight. They must say I was a little discouraged by some or even much of what I read.

What a bunch of negative Nellies when it comes to the future of the Gospel on Earth before the return of Christ. I know from the past that the most convinced and convincing of all has been Steve Rafalsky @Jerusalem Blade . I'm not 100% sure even that my convictions are as strong as his. He seems to have it all figured out in great detail. I'm sure she would not use these words, but I think of him as an amill of the most negative sort. Isaiah 9:7 tells us that of the increase of His government, there shall be no end. But apparently, some think the "increase of His government" has increased as much as it's going to--and it's all downhill from here. I remind you again that these are my words. I'm sure Steve would never use them.

But I believe, with Isaiah and with Jesus himself, that Christ's government will increase, gaining more and more success over the Earth up to the time of his coming. I know, I know. It sounds like I'm bringing some strange and new doctrine. I'm an amill too, and what I'm saying is not new. But unlike many modern "negative" amills, I don't have all the details worked out about how it all comes about. But when Jesus declared that all power in Heaven and Earth was given to Him, he gave us few details. He just said, therefore, go and preach the gospel in the whole world and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and lo I am with you always even though it's the end of the world. Like I have said before, since the Church has not reached a dogmatic consensus of the one true interpretation of the Book of Revelation, I consider it still a sealed book to some extent. There are at least three very different views among the Reformed, of which eschatology is taught by the Revelation. Could you say the same thing about the doctrine of Justification? How about Original Sin or the Doctrines of Grace? My view is that there are still 65 books in the Bible that speak of the world's future. It is said that someday the kings of this Earth will bow to Christ, and the Nations will bring their treasures into Jerusalem (the Church). Let me ask you, when did this happen? Or when will it happen? Certainly not at the second coming of Christ when no man can work, and nobody can change anything about what is. It is the end; it is Judgment Day, and nobody else is going to bring Treasures anywhere.

This is going to sound pretty awful. But if the hundreds of places in the 65 books speak of the nations coming to Christ, and this is as good as it gets, then it appears to me the Bible has dramatically exaggerated the victory of Christ over this world. I remind you that he is called the number places the Savior of the World. Is he going to be a shoddy savior? Approximately one-third of the world claims to be Christian. Is that all "all power" can do? In John 17:20-23, Jesus twice prays for the Church to become One. Man, has that verse been spiritualized away been spiritualized into practically nothing. The problem with the Spiritual view only, is that Jesus twice says that this Oneness will be such that it convinces the World that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World. That includes the god-hating world. I haven't seen Jesus' prayer answered yet. Remember, Jesus' prayers are also prophecies. And if it is of a spiritual nature only, how's that going? How One in Spirit are the two-billion so-called Christians doing? We've Reformed still can't figure out whether to baptize infants or not. Whether Emerson is necessary or not. I don't see the Oneness. The world certainly doesn't see it.

I've decided that I've said enough, if not too much already. But I challenge you to rethink what the Bible teaches about the future. It'll be more fully revealed in God's time. By the way, I love the Book of Revelation. It is equal to or even surpassing the beauty of the Psalms. But I am scratching my head about much of what it is saying.
~~~~~~~

Here are a few passages I talked about.

Isaiah 9:6‭-‬7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Matthew 28:18‭-‬20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in Earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 17:11‭, ‬20‭-‬23 ESV
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

1 John 4:13‭-‬14 ESV
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 4:42 ESV
They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."
 
I was listening to Gary Demar on the canon press app. He uses the same "it was worse before" argument.
Daniel wasn't in a worse situation than we are. Things aren't so deadly (for now) but Babylon was largely disinterested in the Jews and thus made no effort to expunge their religion. Babylon didn't burn their books, and didn't abduct their children to brainwash them in the ways of Babylon.

Babylon didn't have nuclear warheads, didn't have algorithms which can suppress the truth, and didn't exist in a world where there is NO ESCAPE no matter where you go.
We live in that world that Daniel didn't. the Turks invading Europe wasn't as bad as this, roman persecution wasn't as bad as our situation. No one is taking everything that has changed to it's logical conclusions.

Telling me that God has delivered us before provides no comfort, because the delivery we have been granted has not lasted in any meaningful way since the fall of the roman empire. There is absolutely no period in history comparable to now. People are unwilling to admit what is going on is bigger, more powerful, and unstoppable by any means OTHER than divine intervention.
God seems to have provided no discernable divine intervention as Christians were slowly burned out of existence in the middle east.
Babylon couldn't remotely sniff you out based on who you email or what you say even privately. Babylon couldn't cut off your bank account, take away all of your money, and in fact, couldn't wipe out everyone's savings worldwide overnight. That would be very easy to do, overnight today.

Big tech and alphabet agencies can, and easily purge us out of existence, one way or another.
traditional wisdom does not provide comfort because it literally doesn't apply anymore.

Please don't ban me for this post. I DO believe. But I'm increasingly under assault by the realization of the reality we now live in. I'm asking here because PB because I can think of no better place to go. There's plenty of useless 'Christian' forums which don't have a very good grounding.

Dear brother,

"Thy kingdom come." Read the Shorter and Larger Catechisms on this petition, and let them feed your faith.

"Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

You have two marvelous petitions to bring before God regarding these things. Pray in such a way as to truly do service to these passages, and expect an equal reply.

If you need to warm up your heart first, get a 1650 Psalter, go to Psalm 22 verses 27-31, and sing to the tune of "O God Our Help in Ages Past", and sing it with gusto.

Go before God, tell Him that He has commanded you to pray in such a manner, and hold Him to His own words. What words God has put in your mouth by His Word, He will certainly honor. Only pray believingly, not wavering, forgiving others, and not losing heart.

From a brother who is likewise dust and ashes.
 
The Church appears to be dying in the west. I personally feel that God is sifting the church. He is mounting increased pressure to push away those who are unbelievers within the church and highlighting his true church. As a side note, Studies show it is growing at rapid pace in China and parts of Africa. I think God is very grieved over the sins of the west.

In reference to some of your comments related to Babylon and historical Christianity not going through what we might go through. I think you are minimizing the events that took place and the affliction that was brought onto God's people. Its easy to gloss over OT passages and not think it was as bad as we may have it. Everybody in the ancient east wanted to force worship of their God which would be equated as worldview. During the Babylonian captivity many Israelites were killed, enslaved and forced to bow down to other Gods. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego were thrown into the fire because they wouldn't bow down to Nebuchadnezzar. This was a documented story but many undocumented stories probably exist for sure. During the siege Israelites were so hungry they ate their young (2 Kings 6:24-33).

During antiquity to actually go into the Marketplace you had to pay a tribute to the local God of the city. You could pay tribute to your God as well but it was agreeing with Polytheism. Christians couldn't do this so they were eliminated from most market activity. This was certainty a heavy burden. The Roman Government also had a series of questions to find out if one was Christian and if guilty they were executed in very horrific ways (Read Foxes Book of the Martyrs). Many people who were thought to be believers rejected Christ and even turned over believers to the Roman Government.
 
Greetings,

Dear Chris,

Like Elihu, the son of Barachel the Buzite, I waited and let others speak first. I read or re-read all the posts tonight. They must say I was a little discouraged by some or even much of what I read.

What a bunch of negative Nellies when it comes to the future of the Gospel on Earth before the return of Christ. I know from the past that the most convinced and convincing of all has been Steve Rafalsky @Jerusalem Blade . I'm not 100% sure even that my convictions are as strong as his. He seems to have it all figured out in great detail. I'm sure she would not use these words, but I think of him as an amill of the most negative sort. Isaiah 9:7 tells us that of the increase of His government, there shall be no end. But apparently, some think the "increase of His government" has increased as much as it's going to--and it's all downhill from here. I remind you again that these are my words. I'm sure Steve would never use them.

But I believe, with Isaiah and with Jesus himself, that Christ's government will increase, gaining more and more success over the Earth up to the time of his coming. I know, I know. It sounds like I'm bringing some strange and new doctrine. I'm an amill too, and what I'm saying is not new. But unlike many modern "negative" amills, I don't have all the details worked out about how it all comes about. But when Jesus declared that all power in Heaven and Earth was given to Him, he gave us few details. He just said, therefore, go and preach the gospel in the whole world and baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and lo I am with you always even though it's the end of the world. Like I have said before, since the Church has not reached a dogmatic consensus of the one true interpretation of the Book of Revelation, I consider it still a sealed book to some extent. There are at least three very different views among the Reformed, of which eschatology is taught by the Revelation. Could you say the same thing about the doctrine of Justification? How about Original Sin or the Doctrines of Grace? My view is that there are still 65 books in the Bible that speak of the world's future. It is said that someday the kings of this Earth will bow to Christ, and the Nations will bring their treasures into Jerusalem (the Church). Let me ask you, when did this happen? Or when will it happen? Certainly not at the second coming of Christ when no man can work, and nobody can change anything about what is. It is the end; it is Judgment Day, and nobody else is going to bring Treasures anywhere.

This is going to sound pretty awful. But if the hundreds of places in the 65 books speak of the nations coming to Christ, and this is as good as it gets, then it appears to me the Bible has dramatically exaggerated the victory of Christ over this world. I remind you that he is called the number places the Savior of the World. Is he going to be a shoddy savior? Approximately one-third of the world claims to be Christian. Is that all "all power" can do? In John 17:20-23, Jesus twice prays for the Church to become One. Man, has that verse been spiritualized away been spiritualized into practically nothing. The problem with the Spiritual view only, is that Jesus twice says that this Oneness will be such that it convinces the World that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World. That includes the god-hating world. I haven't seen Jesus' prayer answered yet. Remember, Jesus' prayers are also prophecies. And if it is of a spiritual nature only, how's that going? How One in Spirit are the two-billion so-called Christians doing? We've Reformed still can't figure out whether to baptize infants or not. Whether Emerson is necessary or not. I don't see the Oneness. The world certainly doesn't see it.

I've decided that I've said enough, if not too much already. But I challenge you to rethink what the Bible teaches about the future. It'll be more fully revealed in God's time. By the way, I love the Book of Revelation. It is equal to or even surpassing the beauty of the Psalms. But I am scratching my head about much of what it is saying.
~~~~~~~

Here are a few passages I talked about.

Isaiah 9:6‭-‬7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Matthew 28:18‭-‬20
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in Earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

John 17:11‭, ‬20‭-‬23 ESV
And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

1 John 4:13‭-‬14 ESV
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 4:42 ESV
They said to the woman, "It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world."
I will say this, which is of huge encouragement to me, that for years I besought the Lord to send out laborers into the harvest; that is, to raise up preachers who will herald the word of God faithfully, even into the highways and the byways. I started praying this as a reformed-ish Baptist, with little encouragement that I could see that this prayer was being answered. But then, after years of praying for this (which is just another way of praying "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven") I began to learn that God has been doing just that.

I began by discovering and listening to strong preaching from such Reformed men as Rob McCurley and Gavin Beers and Todd Ruddell. There are others, some on this board. I would encourage you to start with looking up the names I mentioned on Sermon Audio, and begin listening to their preaching.

And by the way, at least two seminal sermons were preached by Rob McCurley and Todd Ruddell last year shortly into the lockdowns; they were widely shared among Reformed and confessional Christians. Here are links to them:

The Lord Roars from Zion
Corona: The Church's Warning

The sheep need need stout-hearted shepherds and stout-hearted preaching.
 
Dear Ed,

Please don't make it personal when you negatively refer to me / my character – in the midst of a theological discussion – coming close to mocking and bearing false witness. Stick to the ideas and Scriptures we are talking of, not our characters. You can make fun of my ideas if you like – though I do seek to base them on Scripture.

I think it would be wiser to try to refute my use of Paul's saying we are in "this present evil age" (Gal 1:4) and John's "the whole world lieth in wickedness" (1 John 5:19), and these similar Scriptures:

Eph 2:2 in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience​
John 15:18-20 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you​
John 17:14-16 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world​
Luke 17:26, 27 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all​
2 Tim 3:12, 13 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived​
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world​

Ed, I don't have all the details worked out, not by a long shot, though some do come into focus, a couple fairly clearly, and many vaguely and / or uncertainly. We are called to discern the times – not as in setting dates, but seeing if Scripture's light illumines foretold things that happen. For some things surely shall happen as the end draws nearer.

Your arguments in your fourth "This is going to sound pretty awful" paragraph suggest that because Christ is "the Savior of the world" it should follow that most of the world would come to Him to be saved! And if we don't see that, is He to be thought "a shoddy savior", and, say you, "it appears to me the Bible has dramatically exaggerated the victory of Christ over this world" if we don't see that. So for the Scripture to be fulfilled as you think it should – according to the postmil schema – most of the world should be saved? This, Ed, is not a good reading of God's word.

We can differ, but don't get carried away, please. It is not seemly.

And – I should add – please note how I see the elect and genuine church to be glorious in the Spirit and majesty of the Saviour, Jesus Christ. We may look beaten and forlorn to the world and its persecuting detractors – as He Himself looked in His atoning sacrifice – but the glory of God is within and upon the faithful, suffering servants. I try to see as God sees, not as mere human eyes see.
 
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