Faithful congregations in unfaithful denominations

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So back to the original questions I had: it doesn't appear that there is an issue attending a congregation such as I described above? As long as the service itself is orthodox and the teaching elder is a man?

I guess a follow up question I would have is: it's obvious that female elders is thoroughly unbiblical and even anti-biblical. But this isn't a Gospel issue per se? It's an error but not an error that would in and of itself require one to not have fellowship with such a congregation?
 
Rome2Geneva said:
So back to the original questions I had: it doesn't appear that there is an issue attending a congregation such as I described above? As long as the service itself is orthodox and the teaching elder is a man?

I guess a follow up question I would have is: it's obvious that female elders is thoroughly unbiblical and even anti-biblical. But this isn't a Gospel issue per se? It's an error but not an error that would in and of itself require one to not have fellowship with such a congregation?
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If a woman is preaching, is it likely you are going to be able to find several gospel issues within the church's practice as a whole. Even if the woman preaching is not it specifically. Once liberalism creeps in, the foundation falls apart pretty fast in all areas.
 
Rome2Geneva said:
...it's obvious that female elders is thoroughly unbiblical and even anti-biblical. But this isn't a Gospel issue per se?
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I get what you're asking, but the term "gospel issue" is so frequently used today—and so infrequently defined—that it is almost meaningless. What even is a "gospel issue"? Since God is truth itself (WCF 1.4), isn't all error a "gospel issue" in some sense? Or does "gospel issue" refer to those errors which, when held to, imperil one's salvation? And even then, the line can be blurry. There are doctrines which, unless a man believe, he without question cannot be saved (e.g., the Trinity), but what about those doctrines which are quite serious, but not necessarily crucial to salvation? It's just so cloudy of a phrase that it is in the end unhelpful, in my estimation. A better question to ask, it seems to me, is this: This church is clearly in violation of Scripture; does attending this church under certain limited circumstances violate my conscience?
 
Ignorant fellow in me, where are places where the RCA is dominant and also there are no other conservative churches? Curious
 
John Yap said:
Ignorant fellow in me, where are places where the RCA is dominant and also there are no other conservative churches? Curious
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In my particular circumstance I'm speaking of central New Jersey. The old Dutch Reformed have a long standing and deeply rooted history in the area. Most other churches in the area are Romanist, Baptist(not Reformed) or Episcopalian.
 
Steven, if I found a CRC or RCA congregation that faithfully preached the gospel but had female elders, and it was the best I could do in the place I found myself, I would not hesitate to visit and would try to do so with thankfulness for what God had provided rather than feelings of guilt or annoyance over what he had withheld. If you were asking about membership or long-term attendance, there certainly would be further considerations.

I also would not give up too easily in my search for a baptistic church that is not Arminian and preaches the doctrines of grace. It's hard to believe there aren't any in central New Jersey. I would check the 9Marks, Acts 29, and Gospel Coalition websites for independent and/or baptistic churches that have signed on as associating with those networks. It doesn't automatically mean a good church, but it usually signals one that is not overtly Arminian, which is a good starting place.
 
Taylor said:
Absolutely not. It’s not even possible to pray with a Mormon or a Jehovah’s Witness, since they worship demons. Praying with them I would consider blasphemy. You can only pray for them.
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***off-topic alert***
As one who like @reformed grit 's comment let me try to say why.

If I was in a foxhole, I would pray with a JW or Mormon or Catholic.

Now, my def re: "pray with"

I pray according to Scripture. They pray their way. I do not JOIN their prayers merely pray my way as they pray theirs for the same outcome (survival).

God will reveal truth.

I would use their mistakes in theology to explain my own (eg. as the Catholic prays the "Hail Mary", I would remain silent and steadfast in my Biblical stance that Mary doesn't mediate for us at the hour of death; Christ alone does cf. thief on the cross).
 
John Yap said:

This map overlay has reformed churches sited
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That is very helpful and I thank you much for providing it. The church in Manasquan would certainly be doable. I have never heard of that particular group so I didn't know to search for it.

The last time I lived in New Jersey I was a Roman Catholic so this wasn't an issue. Roman churches in NJ are like Baptist churches here in NC, there's one on every corner.
 
Rome2Geneva said:
I guess a follow up question I would have is: it's obvious that female elders is thoroughly unbiblical and even anti-biblical. But this isn't a Gospel issue per se? It's an error but not an error that would in and of itself require one to not have fellowship with such a congregation?
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If a one-time thing, I would (probably) go to a church with female elders over not going - (though it might depend a lot on the particulars). Just go with the mindset that some of the people you are with true brothers and sisters, even if they are in error. You'll be with them for eternity, so you might as well meet them now.

If my kids were with me, well, maybe the calculus changes, maybe not. And if this were a long-term, or continual thing, then maybe that changes it, too.

Last Sunday we were at a church which was unlike ours in very many ways, including a women leading a very vigorous prayer. I talked with my kids about it. At the very least, they understand that the Church is bigger than the OPC.
 
Rome2Geneva said:
So back to the original questions I had: it doesn't appear that there is an issue attending a congregation such as I described above? As long as the service itself is orthodox and the teaching elder is a man?

I guess a follow up question I would have is: it's obvious that female elders is thoroughly unbiblical and even anti-biblical. But this isn't a Gospel issue per se? It's an error but not an error that would in and of itself require one to not have fellowship with such a congregation?
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I would assent "no" and "no" to queries in the 1st paragraph.
As to queries in the 2nd, I'd say having female ruling elders is a teaching different from Scripture, but not a "different gospel" in the sense Paul means in Gal.1:6 ff. - not to the point of being "accursed!" I do find it, however, a grave error. For me it would prohibit membership but not temporary  fellowship, were there no other options within an acceptable proximity.

Let me just add, if you're in an area w/o an acceptable church in close enough distance, then brother, you and your family are missionaries.
 
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Hypothetically, if the choices involve women in leadership vs. not attending a public service, I think I'd privately worship with the family together for one Lord's Day.

If we are going to be temporarily suspending one Biblical factor re: worship for one day, that is the route I would personally lean.

But I do not fault anyone for thinking differently and making a different choice.
 
I wouldn't travel to a place over a Sunday if it was without a sound Gospel preaching church.

When my wife and I went to England on our Honeymoon in early 2019, we made sure we knew exactly which church we'd be attending on each of the two Sundays we were there before we even bought the plane tickets.
 
Jack K said:
I would check the 9Marks, Acts 29, and Gospel Coalition websites for independent and/or baptistic churches that have signed on as associating with those networks. It doesn't automatically mean a good church, but it usually signals one that is not overtly Arminian, which is a good starting place.
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Some may disagree, but I would say 9Marks, Acts29, and TGC should be avoided like the plague. All of the organizations have gone woke and actively advocate for social justice warrior type causes. You may find an oasis in these organizations occasionally, but for the most part they are rotten to the core.
 
I haven't seen anyone give this advice yet so I will put it out there. If you travel so frequently and are challenged to find a solid church so often that you are seeking counsel on a forum, perhaps it is time to consider a new line of work. God is rightly jealous for His worship. It is not to be compromised.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." - Matt 6:33
 
Andres said:
I haven't seen anyone give this advice yet so I will put it out there. If you travel so frequently and are challenged to find a solid church so often that you are seeking counsel on a forum, perhaps it is time to consider a new line of work. God is rightly jealous for His worship. It is not to be compromised.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." - Matt 6:33
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It isn't for work as I work from home. It's primarily to visit family for a few days. Occasionally this occurs on the Lord's Day which is why I asked the question.
Thank you.
 
Rome2Geneva said:
It isn't for work as I work from home. It's primarily to visit family for a few days. Occasionally this occurs on the Lord's Day which is why I asked the question.
Thank you.
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My apologies for misreading your initial post. I guess I just assumed you were having to travel for work related reasons. Your problem of struggling to find solid places of worship is then self-inflicted and the Matt 6:33 passage is even more applicable. God has graciously given you six days of the week for vacation and visiting family. Honor His one day of the week as He calls You to, brother.
 
Andres said:
My apologies for misreading your initial post. I guess I just assumed you were having to travel for work related reasons. Your problem of struggling to find solid places of worship is then self-inflicted and the Matt 6:33 passage is even more applicable. God has graciously given you six days of the week for vacation and visiting family. Honor His one day of the week as He calls You to, brother.
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Right. Thanks.
 
If I didn't have a NAPARC option I would definitely worship at an RCA or CRC, unless the minister was a woman. If that was the case I would look for a baptist church or even a community non-denominational church. I wouldn't sit at home.

However we avoid these situations because we purposely do not travel anywhere on Sunday unless there is a faithful reformed church to attend there.
 
And there's the ancillary question - "travel" - what is an acceptable distance to travel on Sunday for Sabbath Day worship? And are there restrictions on an acceptable means of travel on the Sabbath?
 
Thank you to all who have answered. I believe I have a clearer picture of the situation and my choices now.

I don't want to go into details but the reasons for our travels which sometimes necessitate us being away from home on the Sabbath are not always for pleasure. Family duties sometimes require it.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
Some may disagree, but I would say 9Marks, Acts29, and TGC should be avoided like the plague. All of the organizations have gone woke and actively advocate for social justice warrior type causes. You may find an oasis in these organizations occasionally, but for the most part they are rotten to the core.
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This is too broad a brush, although personally I have the same sort of reaction as your post to those three groups. We live in Central NJ and have attended a church for years that is a member of the Gospel Coalition. The Calvinism is solid, the anti-woke is solid, I love the young earth position, and the women are very nice ladies devoted to their families. I would say the PCA women in NJ I've known are far more career oriented than these Calvinist Baptists, and PCA people fighting for a billions of year old earth and Tim Keller evolution I found annoying ( not the PCA pastor).

Our pastor loves the older guys like Ligon Duncan and the speakers at Ligonier's conference who I think overlap with TGC, and told us he expects TGC to split over the woke issues. My husband and I are not official members because I refuse to join a church that is officially part of TGC, but it doesn't matter at all in terms of church life. Dispensationalism drives me crazy when it comes up ( rarely) but it is a "non essential" technically. One PCA a half hour north of me was heavily political and frequently used articles from World Magazine as their text....the PCA pastor who told us about them said they didn't come to Presbytery meetings so they didn't have any bad influence. Is that LOL or ai yi yi?! But his head of women's ministry used Beth Moore DVDs she rented from the PCA lending library.

You really have to go church by church these days. I knew a PCA elder who skipped the occasional Sunday service for a Broadway show. You really have to lay out your priorities and personal essentials ( and having a confession may not mean a lot in a church, be realistic here).

I happen to believe the coming economic collapse in the USA and the West, and other judgements on our wickedness, might shake things up a bit and purge and purify some churches while others go father left.

Its tough out there. Women elders for me is a big no, even if they don't preach. I'd stay home and listen to a good sermon online if its just one Sunday, if there was no other option than women elders.

We really need to be praying for revival. I've been listening to Bahnsen postmil sermons and they are so encouraging about God's promises to the church ( I'm still amil, lol, but getting more optimistic about the glorious promises to the church before the Lord's return). And pray for your church that is fine now, that they don't go off the rails. It happens.
 
Andres said:
My apologies for misreading your initial post. I guess I just assumed you were having to travel for work related reasons. Your problem of struggling to find solid places of worship is then self-inflicted and the Matt 6:33 passage is even more applicable. God has graciously given you six days of the week for vacation and visiting family. Honor His one day of the week as He calls You to, brother.
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Andres-

I want to apologize for my somewhat dismissive response to this post yesterday. As I stated above, my reasons for sometimes being away from home on weekends is due to family considerations, such was the case a couple weeks ago with a terminally ill family member taking a turn. However sometimes it is simply to visit. Your admonishment caused me to reassess my observance of the Lord's Day and I realize I am not as faithful in this matter as I could be.

I always considered not doing servile work to be all that was really required on Sunday. As I learn and read the Puritans and older Reformed resources I see that the bar is much higher. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
 
lynnie said:
This is too broad a brush, although personally I have the same sort of reaction as your post to those three groups. We live in Central NJ and have attended a church for years that is a member of the Gospel Coalition. The Calvinism is solid, the anti-woke is solid, I love the young earth position, and the women are very nice ladies devoted to their families. I would say the PCA women in NJ I've known are far more career oriented than these Calvinist Baptists, and PCA people fighting for a billions of year old earth and Tim Keller evolution I found annoying ( not the PCA pastor).

Our pastor loves the older guys like Ligon Duncan and the speakers at Ligonier's conference who I think overlap with TGC, and told us he expects TGC to split over the woke issues. My husband and I are not official members because I refuse to join a church that is officially part of TGC, but it doesn't matter at all in terms of church life. Dispensationalism drives me crazy when it comes up ( rarely) but it is a "non essential" technically. One PCA a half hour north of me was heavily political and frequently used articles from World Magazine as their text....the PCA pastor who told us about them said they didn't come to Presbytery meetings so they didn't have any bad influence. Is that LOL or ai yi yi?! But his head of women's ministry used Beth Moore DVDs she rented from the PCA lending library.

You really have to go church by church these days. I knew a PCA elder who skipped the occasional Sunday service for a Broadway show. You really have to lay out your priorities and personal essentials ( and having a confession may not mean a lot in a church, be realistic here).

I happen to believe the coming economic collapse in the USA and the West, and other judgements on our wickedness, might shake things up a bit and purge and purify some churches while others go father left.

Its tough out there. Women elders for me is a big no, even if they don't preach. I'd stay home and listen to a good sermon online if its just one Sunday, if there was no other option than women elders.

We really need to be praying for revival. I've been listening to Bahnsen postmil sermons and they are so encouraging about God's promises to the church ( I'm still amil, lol, but getting more optimistic about the glorious promises to the church before the Lord's return). And pray for your church that is fine now, that they don't go off the rails. It happens.
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I agree ultimately you need to go to a church to figure out what it is all about. I would just prefer to begin from a better starting point (which would include avoiding TGC, Acts29, and 9Marks). If there is nothing else, then start visiting and figure out if you can find the exception/oasis (as I mentioned in my comment). I am glad you found one of these, but it sounds like they are thinking of splitting with TGC and you would not join because of the association.
 
retroGRAD3 said:
Some may disagree, but I would say 9Marks, Acts29, and TGC should be avoided like the plague. All of the organizations have gone woke and actively advocate for social justice warrior type causes. You may find an oasis in these organizations occasionally, but for the most part they are rotten to the core.
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Really? That's an awfully broad swipe. Jason has already gone through all the Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed options and is not content. Now some of us suggest he not be hasty but at least explore Calvinistic Baptists, most of whom will espouse a tie to one of those networks to give themselves some visibility—but you say those should be "avoided like the plague." It makes me wonder what you would suggest he try next. Any ideas at all?
 
Jack K said:
Really? That's an awfully broad swipe. Jason has already gone through all the Presbyterian and Dutch Reformed options and is not content. Now some of us suggest he not be hasty but at least explore Calvinistic Baptists, most of whom will espouse a tie to one of those networks to give themselves some visibility—but you say those should be "avoided like the plague." It makes me wonder what you would suggest he try next. Any ideas at all?
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First, I would challenge you to look into TGC, 9Marks, and Acts29 rather than getting defensive. I don't say what I did to be controversial. You will see in most cases, you are throwing him to the wolves and I seek to protect him from that. Discernment is every Christians responsibility and it seems as of late it is severely lacking in most places (not trying to single you out).

Second, here are some church directories I would recommend if a good OPC or PCA cannot be found in the area. These suggestions are by no means perfect, but they are better than any of the aforementioned three:

founders.org

Church Search

Our desire is to help you get connected to a healthy, biblically-grounded church. Search below to find a gospel-preaching, Christ-exalting church near you. The churches appearing here are listed voluntarily, … More
founders.org founders.org
illbehonest.com

List of Solid Biblical Churches | I'll Be Honest

We've made this list of solid Biblical churches in the hopes of making it easier for someone who is looking for a church.
illbehonest.com illbehonest.com
 
From my experience a lot of churches list on groups like TGC/9Marks for help in finding people looking for churches, not because of full doctrinal agreement. I was looking for a church and saw a plant of the PRCA had listed in both of these, and I was surprised. I reached out because there weren't a lot of options, and the work had folded, but the church planter noted he was trying to get the word out broadly about their new work and so had listed there.

I don't know what the requirements are to list there. I was speaking this afternoon to an elder at a local baptist congregation that is part of FIRE and he was sharing his concern about TGC and of a particular article he was surprised about. This congregation is very anti-woke as a whole. They're still listed in the TGC directory.
 
Just putting the warning out there. I was not trying to say that you could not find an exception. I also mentioned this is earlier posts. I mainly just want people to know what they could potentially be getting themselves into.
 
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