Family Guy???

[LawrenceU]

I don't know if I have ever written or said this: You go girl!

Coming from a younger perspective, it was very "in" to like Family guy. I remember a few years ago how nearly ALL of my professing "Christian" friends my age watched it without remorse and promoted it. I tried watching it to see what it was all about... but it was ridiculously inappropriate and my sensitivity to such vulgarity and sinful behaviors turned me off to it. From a female perspective, I noticed a lot of young ladies my age would watch it so the guys would think they we're "cool" (for lack of a better way to describe it). I have even heard some of my friends claim that they watch such shows(more than family guy) for "fellowship" purposes. For example: I asked a strong Christian friend of mine point blank why she would watch such a show, her reply was along the lines of it was to "minister" to her non-believing and "weaker" brothers and sisters to show she wanted to spend time with them, and she wasn't "legalistic". I was shocked. It was compromise under a guise of "ministry". I think, too, it is a lack of understanding, a lack of reverence (this is VERY prominent among a lot of my friends my age); due to youth groups/college groups, companions of fools, and not being exposed to mature believers... they simply do not have a solid understanding of how Holy God is.

I may step on toes but the recent "popular" and inappropriate shows I have heard about (and at least been exposed to) is Southpark and The Office. I do not understand the appeal as a believer.

Moreover, I do not see how we can draw entertainment from such a sinful world or how one can find pleasure in such impure, crude, and sinfully passionate worldliness? I would have to respectfully disagree that it is "ok" to watch such shows (namely family guy to stay on topic). The more we are immersed in ungodliness the less we are actively striving for purity, holiness, uprightness, to be blameless, to be as lights in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. This, to me, is a tragedy... how can we be lights to such a perverse generation if we ourselves are just as preoccupied with what the world is preoccupied with?

 

[Steve Curtis]

 

[Marrow Man]

One of the sad and ironic things is the the series creator, Seth MacFarlane, was scheduled to be on one of the 9/11 flights (American Airlines Flight 11) and missed his flight by only 10 minutes. But instead of giving thanks to God that his life was spared, he blasphemes God.

 

[LawrenceU]

One of the sad and ironic things is the the series creator, Seth MacFarlane, was scheduled to be on one of the 9/11 flights (American Airlines Flight 11) and missed his flight by only 10 minutes. But instead of giving thanks to God that his life was spared, he blasphemes God.

That is telling, and frightening.

 

[Tripel]

Violations of the 2nd and 3rd commandment are always sin (the show regularly violates these with their supposed “Jesus” character), not an issue of Christian liberty.

Violations of any of the commandments are always sin. But this topic is not about whether or not we can engage in a certain sin. Rather, we are discussing sin that is portrayed in media, and to what extent we can be entertained by that piece of media.

I agree with Rae. It might be a really bad idea to watch Family Guy, but I don't think you can say that across the board it is sinful for someone to watch it. Just like I don't think you can say it is absolutely sinful for anyone to watch a whole host of things. Christian liberty DOES come into play here, but as Rae has said, that doesn't mean we are saying it's OK for everyone to go out and watch it. It's clearly not.

If someone is going to argue that it's sinful to watch Family Guy because it portrays sin, then he'd be implying that it's sinful for anyone to watch anything that portrays any sin. I don't think that's a line we can draw, because Scripture does not. We have liberty, not to watch whatever we want, but rather to use discernment and wisdom while weighing the pros and cons of a particular piece of entertainment.

Someone mentioned iron sharpens iron. That's exactly right. It is good and helpful to receive input from others regarding the dangers of a certain movie, book, TV show, or anything else. But what is not helpful is to say that anyone who watches ____________ is absolutely engaging in sin.

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

So Daniel,
God thinks it is okay if you set p0rn, blasphemy, idolatry, drunkenness, adultery, bestiality, thievery, bearing false witness, a breaking of every command constantly in front of your eyes and those around you in the supposed name of Liberty? Where does this label of Liberty come from? Liberty expresses things that aren't sin. The stuff I specifically named are not negotiables. They are sin. At least Lot was vexed in his spirit. And if something vex's your spirit how could you in good conscience before man and God say this is a matter of Liberty?

 

[steadfast7]

I anticipate that this discussion will inevitably lead to the relevant question of whether the stuff portrayed on screen are actual sins committed? See that thread here

 

[JonathanHunt]

The BBC shows family guy here, and they bleep out the worst language and cut the worst scenes - I think some people would be amazed/horrified if they watched it uncut.

 

[rookie]

For what it's worth, the show's creator/executive producer/star, Seth MacFarlane, is an outspoken atheist and supporter of gay 'marriage'.

So?

The first few seasons were hilarious, and then it was cancelled. It was brought back about 5 years ago and hasn't been the same since. I don't watch anywhere near as often as I once did -- not because I'm convicted that it's a sin, but because it's just not funny anymore. They're trying too hard (and yes, part of that "trying too hard" is the over-the-top attempts at offense). But, I won't rebuke a professing Christian for enjoying it. Not my place, nor do I think it's anyone's here.

It is every christians position to rebuke another christian in sin. Paul rebuked Peter, in public for errors and sin. Jesus rebuked sin.

How long will this society remain lukewarm on the things of this world.

Though I agree we can't shut ourselves out of this world completely, and only in heaven will we be free from sin wholely. But we must use discernment toward some activities, and shows that are blatantly blaspheming against God.

And applause to "Williamthebaptist" for standing strong!!!

 

[Tripel]

So Daniel,
God thinks it is okay if you set p0rn, blasphemy, idolatry, drunkenness, adultery, bestiality, thievery, bearing false witness, a breaking of every command constantly in front of your eyes and those around you in the supposed name of Liberty?

If that is what you gained from my post, it is a gross misunderstanding.

Where does this label of Liberty come from? Liberty expresses things that aren't sin. The stuff I specifically named are not negotiables. They are sin.

My point is that I don't believe it is necessarily a sin to watch, read, or listen to something in which sin is portrayed. For example, if I sit down to watch a movie and midway through a character curses or drinks too much, it is not necessarily a sinful act on my part--even if I knew that would happen.

Watching, reading, or listening to something is not where sin occurs. Rather, it is what is going on in one's heart.

At least Lot was vexed in his spirit. And if something vex's your spirit how could you in good conscience before man and God say this is a matter of Liberty?

I don't think you are giving me the benefit of the doubt, at least in how you interpret what I posted. Never did I suggest that it's OK to go against one's conscience. Never did I suggest that liberty means getting to be entertained by whatever you want.

 

[Solparvus]

I have seen a trend lately of professing Christians noting that they like "Family Guy." From my understanding, it mocks the Christian faith and is the epitome of coarse jesting. Is this a correct understanding of the show? From what I've heard, it went off the air because even non-Christians thought it was too over the edge. Am I wrong? If I'm not, why is it such an appeal to professing Christians lately, particularly the teen and college crowd?

I've seen the commercials, saw one full episode (the Star Wars episode), a few clips here and there, and had listened to what others have said about it. It's a grief to the Holy Spirit for a Christian to be entertained by it.

Violations of the 2nd and 3rd commandment are always sin (the show regularly violates these with their supposed “Jesus” character), not an issue of Christian liberty.

Violations of any of the commandments are always sin. But this topic is not about whether or not we can engage in a certain sin. Rather, we are discussing sin that is portrayed in media, and to what extent we can be entertained by that piece of media.

I agree with Rae. It might be a really bad idea to watch Family Guy, but I don't think you can say that across the board it is sinful for someone to watch it. Just like I don't think you can say it is absolutely sinful for anyone to watch a whole host of things. Christian liberty DOES come into play here, but as Rae has said, that doesn't mean we are saying it's OK for everyone to go out and watch it. It's clearly not.

If someone is going to argue that it's sinful to watch Family Guy because it portrays sin, then he'd be implying that it's sinful for anyone to watch anything that portrays any sin. I don't think that's a line we can draw, because Scripture does not. We have liberty, not to watch whatever we want, but rather to use discernment and wisdom while weighing the pros and cons of a particular piece of entertainment.

Someone mentioned iron sharpens iron. That's exactly right. It is good and helpful to receive input from others regarding the dangers of a certain movie, book, TV show, or anything else. But what is not helpful is to say that anyone who watches ____________ is absolutely engaging in sin.

Let's put this another way, if I may: Which of the sins portrayed on the show--swearing, blasphemy, mockery of Christ, coarse jesting, matricide, sexual perversion (including homosexuality and bestiality)--do you have the right to watch for entertainment as a matter of Christian liberty?

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

So Daniel,
God thinks it is okay if you set p0rn, blasphemy, idolatry, drunkenness, adultery, bestiality, thievery, bearing false witness, a breaking of every command constantly in front of your eyes and those around you in the supposed name of Liberty?

If that is what you gained from my post, it is a gross misunderstanding.

Where does this label of Liberty come from? Liberty expresses things that aren't sin. The stuff I specifically named are not negotiables. They are sin.

My point is that I don't believe it is necessarily a sin to watch, read, or listen to something in which sin is portrayed. For example, if I sit down to watch a movie and midway through a character curses or drinks too much, it is not necessarily a sinful act on my part--even if I knew that would happen.

Watching, reading, or listening to something is not where sin occurs. Rather, it is what is going on in one's heart.

At least Lot was vexed in his spirit. And if something vex's your spirit how could you in good conscience before man and God say this is a matter of Liberty?

I don't think you are giving me the benefit of the doubt, at least in how you interpret what I posted. Never did I suggest that it's OK to go against one's conscience. Never did I suggest that liberty means getting to be entertained by whatever you want.

But we are talking about a specific show and specific content that most of us know about. I am sorry if I misread your intent. I personally have gotten up and walked out in the middle of perverseness and nudity displayed. Even during the stupidity of stupid drunkenness.

 

[Tripel]

Let's put this another way, if I may: Which of the sins portrayed on the show--swearing, blasphemy, mockery of Christ, coarse jesting, matricide, sexual perversion (including homosexuality and bestiality)--do you have the right to watch for entertainment as a matter of Christian liberty?

All of them. And none of them.
Again, it is not necessarily sinful to see sin being portrayed in entertainment. Is it unquestionably sinful for me to watch a movie where a man swears? I don't think it is. Could it be sinful to watch such a movie? Yes, it could be. It depends on what is going on inside the viewer's heart.

Some people might be able to watch a movie that has an instance of sin without their heart being negatively affected. Others may sin in their hearts by seeing such a movie, and in that case they should refrain. That is called a matter of liberty. Not the liberty to watch whatever filth you want, but the liberty to watch what does not cause you to sin.

 

[LawrenceU]

What about Ps. 101.3: I will set before my eyes no vile thing. . .? Does that not have bearing on this matter?

 

[Tripel]

But we are talking about a specific show and specific content that most of us know about.

Very true. I admit that there is content on The Family Guy that I believe to be inappropriate for entertainment. But as Rae mentioned, there is some variance among Family Guy content from episode to episode, season to season.

I'm not looking to turn this debate into a breakdown of each episode to determine which parts are undoubtedly heinous and which are acceptable. My point is that I don't think it is helpful to say that across the board it is sinful to watch any Family Guy. I think it would be better stated that extreme caution is needed regarding the program, due to a lot of garbage. You could even ague that it is unwise to try to filter through it all.

I just think we could all use a little less "I don't see how any Christian could ________________________!"

 

[PuritanCovenanter]

I don't think any of the episodes have once commended the obedience of any commandment of Scripture. I haven't seen them all nor do I think anyone should go through them to try to pick out the possible good in them. I am not sure there is any good in them. Why waist time looking for it when it most likely isn't there. Why put a stumbling block of acceptance in the path of others so that they can become sensitized to accept this vile stuff? It is worthless and there is nothing redeemable about it character wise, time wise, or thinking wise. It violates the prescription of Philippians 4:8, Romans 12:1,2, and Ephesians 4:22,23 and many other passages to the max.

 

[Frosty]

The show is blasphemous, I'm not sure anyone is debating that. Is it permissible to watch such a thing and find enjoyment in it? Even if it was permissible, and I'm not sure that it is, the next question must be asked: Is it beneficial in any way to watch something that is promotes blasphemy, even though every single episode may not? I don't think so.

Marie, to directly address your original questions: 1) Yes, your view of the show is an accurate one, and 2) it is popular, even amongst Christians, because of its edgy humor that often aims to make fun of the establishment. The Christian establishment, the Hollywood establishment, the special needs establishment, any and every establishment.

A test I try to put myself through, although I do this imperfectly I am sure: Would I want my kids (don't have any yet) watching the show or movie when I am not around? Would I want my wife to watch this show? Would I want my two younger sisters (21 and 23) watching this show?

The original question was not about whether or not every single episode of Family Guy was appropriate or not. It was more directed toward the series in general.

When I hang out with people who are drunkards and blasphemers, I doubt that they are drunk and blaspheming the Lord every moment and instance I hang out with them. Does that make it appropriate for a Christian to spend time with them? No.

---------- Post added at 02:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

I don't think any of the episodes have once commended the obedience of any commandment of Scripture. I haven't seen them all nor do I think anyone should go through them to try to pick out the possible good in them. I am not sure there is any good in them. Why waist time looking for it when it most likely isn't there. Why put a stumbling block of acceptance in the path of others so that they can become sensitized to accept this vile stuff? It is worthless and there is nothing redeemable about it character wise, time wise, or thinking wise. It violates the prescription of Philippians 4:8, Romans 12:1,2, and Ephesians 4:22,23 and many other passages to the max.

Well put, Randy.

 

[Rufus]

The BBC shows family guy here, and they bleep out the worst language and cut the worst scenes - I think some people would be amazed/horrified if they watched it uncut.

I guess a for the BBC.

 

[Kim G]

It might also be asked WHY the show portrays the sins it does. A show with a drunk character can show the devastating results of drunkeness. A sexually-loose character can learn the damage that sin causes in mind and body. But the purpose of shows like Family Guy, Two and a Half Men, etc. is to make you laugh at sin. Only fools make a mock at sin.

 

[Phil D.]

It seems appropriate here on the PB to consider what a real-life Puritan had to say about Christians and worldly entertainments (or rather pursuing better alternatives):

"[O that] we might be oftener seeing what they are doing in heaven, and our hearts more frequently upon our sweet treasure above. We smell of the smoke of this lower house of the earth, because our hearts and our thoughts are here. If we could haunt up with God, we should smell of heaven and of our country above; and we should look like our country, and like strangers, or people not born or brought up hereaway. Our crosses would not bite upon us if we were heavenly-minded."

I don't quote Samuel Rutherford because I personally live up to this lofty ideal. No, I am quite convicted by this great Presbyterian's wisdom. "Change my heart, O God..."

 

[Marrow Man]

Thanks for posting that, Phil. That's a challenging quote from Rutherford.

Sometimes Christians can watch movies and TV shows and not necessarily know what is to be expected (even though the rating systems attempt to do this). The Missus and I were watching a Hollywood movie recently (one of the Oscar-nominated movies from last year) and were shocked, about midway through to see a very graphic homosexual love scene. It completely ruined the remainder of the movie for me (and it wasn't that great of a story, although it was well-acted).

Daniel is correct in saying that God looks to the heart and we spend to much time looking at the externals. But there is no surprise with the Family Guy; the show is built upon irreverent course jesting. There was a time in which I watched the show, but I witnessed one of the blasphemy episodes and that was enough for me. It is best avoided by Christians.

 

[Solparvus]

What about Ps. 101.3: I will set before my eyes no vile thing. . .? Does that not have bearing on this matter?

Agreed.

Let's put this another way, if I may: Which of the sins portrayed on the show--swearing, blasphemy, mockery of Christ, coarse jesting, matricide, sexual perversion (including homosexuality and bestiality)--do you have the right to watch for entertainment as a matter of Christian liberty?

All of them. And none of them.
Again, it is not necessarily sinful to see sin being portrayed in entertainment. Is it unquestionably sinful for me to watch a movie where a man swears? I don't think it is. Could it be sinful to watch such a movie? Yes, it could be. It depends on what is going on inside the viewer's heart.

Some people might be able to watch a movie that has an instance of sin without their heart being negatively affected. Others may sin in their hearts by seeing such a movie, and in that case they should refrain. That is called a matter of liberty. Not the liberty to watch whatever filth you want, but the liberty to watch what does not cause you to sin.

To not hate what God hates is sin. If you hate it, why would you watch it?

And no one can use the excuse, "It does not negatively affect me." The fact is that "the heart is deceitful above all things, and is desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9 ESV). The truth is that the show has more power over you than you believe it does, yet what's lacking is for the opportunity for it to show itself, and I say that because I know myself. If knowing myself adds up to anything, it is absolutely impossible to sit and tolerate sin, whether in act or in presentation, without growing cold to it, or somehow finding it more acceptable. It's not legalism at all, but takes seriously that we in our natural flesh are God's enemies, and the flesh is always looking for that opportunity to defy Him. Subtle sin even has the power to kill in this manner, but we are talking about a show that does not even conceal the sin, but presses the boundaries to make it shocking. There is no way you or any other Christian can be "unaffected."

 

[NaphtaliPress]

Rutherford was consistent with friends (in the letter cited by Phil D.) and before rulers. Here is what he preached to the English House of Lords in 1645 (text from a forthcoming Naphtali Press title):

(4) The more you converse with Christ, the more you partake of heaven. To be yourself is to be in ill company. To be with the world rubs rust on you. To be with Christ leaves a smell of heaven, and a dye and color of another world on you that you shall never rub off. To touch perfume and sweet ointments leaves a witness behind it. None can preach nor suffer, but such as have been with Christ to see and hear. You may be called to a bloody death for Christ. I pray you ask when were you last with Christ, and how oft were you with him, or were you ever with him?
...
[4] All of us generally fail in the bad husbanding of time. We are a-dying ere we know for what end we live. Imagine a master sends his servant to a great city with a written paper containing business of great concernment, having alotted to him the space of ten sandglasses to dispatch them all. Should he for the space of the first nine hours fall a-drinking with his drunken companions, and go up and down to behold all the novelties of the city, he should break trust. Alas, is not this world like a great exchange? Our paper contains the business of a great kingdom up above, the honor and glory of our Lord, our redemption through Christ, a treaty of everlasting peace. The time of infancy and childhood slips over, and we know not the end of our creation. Youth-head and man’s age like a proud meadow, green, fair, delightful today, and tomorrow hay, casts blossoms and flowers, and with one little stride skips over our span length of time, and we go through the exchange to buy frothy honor, rotten pleasure, and when the last hour is come, we scarce read our master’s paper. We barter one nothing-creature with another. Alas, it is but a poor reckoning that a natural man can make, who can say no more at his death, but I have eaten, drunken, slept, waked, dreamed and sinned, for the space of sixty or seventy years, and that is all. Time like a long swift sliding river, runs through the city from the creation, when God first set the horologe a-going, to the day of Christ’s second coming, this river slides through our fingers. We eat, drink, sleep, sport, laugh, buy, sell, speak, breath, die in a moment. Every gasp of air is a flux of our minute’s time sliding into eternity.

Samuel Rutherford, "A Sermon Preached before the Right Honorable, the House of Lords, at their Monthly Fast, June 25, 1645, in the Abbey Church at Westminster," in Sermons Preached before the English Houses of Parliament by the Scottish Commissioners to the Westminster Assembly of Divines 1643–1645. Alexander Henderson • Robert Baillie • George Gillespie • Samuel Rutherford.
Edited by Chris Coldwell, Introduction by Guy M. Richard (Naphtali Press: forthcoming, Fall 2011) 469–470, 472
​

It seems appropriate here on the PB to consider what a real-life Puritan had to say about Christians and worldly entertainments (or rather pursuing better alternatives):

"[O that] we might be oftener seeing what they are doing in heaven, and our hearts more frequently upon our sweet treasure above. We smell of the smoke of this lower house of the earth, because our hearts and our thoughts are here. If we could haunt up with God, we should smell of heaven and of our country above; and we should look like our country, and like strangers, or people not born or brought up hereaway. Our crosses would not bite upon us if we were heavenly-minded."

I don't quote Samuel Rutherford because I personally live up to this lofty ideal. No, I am quite convicted by this great Presbyterian's wisdom. "Change my heart, O God..."

 

[BJClark]

I haven't read all the responses, I've seen the show while changing channels..it offends my sensibilities, and I can't fathom why people find it 'funny'..

 

[raekwon]

Wow, look at how this discussion has blown up.

Anyway, only thing I'll say further is that I personally don't watch it much anymore, precisely because of the blasphemy of a few seasons ago. It was showing up in almost every episode, and was repulsive to me... not only as a Christian, but as a fan of comedy. New material, please!

But as I said, I disagree with the assertion that watching is always and only sin.

(But if you're a Star Wars fan, you really owe it to yourself to check out the Star Wars episodes. Very well done.)

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

I remember, back in the dark ages of college, I had to go watch "The Last Temptation of Christ" for a class. There were fundy church folks picketing the movie when I went into the coffee house where it was playing. I remember asking myself, "is it blasphemy to watch Jesus be tempted at his crucifiction to abondon the cross, marry Mary Magdalene, and live a normal life with a bunch of kids? Especially since he ultimately ends up choosing the cross (but barely)?" That movie, insidious as it was probably intended to be, at least made me think, consider the nature of temptation, and the dual nature of Christ, although it made me incredibly uncomfortable. The one episode I saw of Family Guy where they had "Jesus" doing magic tricks at a birthday party did not make me think or consider theology, it made me just change the channel once I figured out there was no "redemptive message" and just mocked the savior. Neither here nor there, just a stray thought.

 

[Zenas]

I'd just like to interject that by anyone's standards, it's bad television. The jokes that they make are frankly for stupid people. The writing lacks any semblance of wit or subtlety. They find a joke, run through the two or three methods of delivery that they have in their arsenal, and then repeat. There's only so many times Peter Griffin can awkwardly repeat the obvious over, and over for thirty second of the show before I just consider it to be dead air that they're straining to fill.

They would be doing everyone a favor if they cancelled the show. Seth McFarlane needs to fade into obscurity with the creators of... well, I can't recall. I can't recall for good reason.

 

[Rufus]

I remember, back in the dark ages of college, I had to go watch "The Last Temptation of Christ" for a class. There were fundy church folks picketing the movie when I went into the coffee house where it was playing. I remember asking myself, "is it blasphemy to watch Jesus be tempted at his crucifiction to abondon the cross, marry Mary Magdalene, and live a normal life with a bunch of kids? Especially since he ultimately ends up choosing the cross (but barely)?" That movie, insidious as it was probably intended to be, at least made me think, consider the nature of temptation, and the dual nature of Christ, although it made me incredibly uncomfortable. The one episode I saw of Family Guy where they had "Jesus" doing magic tricks at a birthday party did not make me think or consider theology, it made me just change the channel once I figured out there was no "redemptive message" and just mocked the savior. Neither here nor there, just a stray thought.

Was it a Christian or Secular college?

 

[NaphtaliPress]

My old church when still in the PCA brought a resolution to presbytery about that film; we posted it online (presbytery didn't go for it if I recall; one said 'we don't do movie reviews'). We were still getting hate mail now and then ten years plus later.
Faith Presbyterian Church Reformed

I remember, back in the dark ages of college, I had to go watch "The Last Temptation of Christ" for a class. There were fundy church folks picketing the movie when I went into the coffee house where it was playing. I remember asking myself, "is it blasphemy to watch Jesus be tempted at his crucifiction to abondon the cross, marry Mary Magdalene, and live a normal life with a bunch of kids? Especially since he ultimately ends up choosing the cross (but barely)?" That movie, insidious as it was probably intended to be, at least made me think, consider the nature of temptation, and the dual nature of Christ, although it made me incredibly uncomfortable. The one episode I saw of Family Guy where they had "Jesus" doing magic tricks at a birthday party did not make me think or consider theology, it made me just change the channel once I figured out there was no "redemptive message" and just mocked the savior. Neither here nor there, just a stray thought.

 

[GulfCoast Presbyterian]

I remember, back in the dark ages of college, I had to go watch "The Last Temptation of Christ" for a class. There were fundy church folks picketing the movie when I went into the coffee house where it was playing. I remember asking myself, "is it blasphemy to watch Jesus be tempted at his crucifiction to abondon the cross, marry Mary Magdalene, and live a normal life with a bunch of kids? Especially since he ultimately ends up choosing the cross (but barely)?" That movie, insidious as it was probably intended to be, at least made me think, consider the nature of temptation, and the dual nature of Christ, although it made me incredibly uncomfortable. The one episode I saw of Family Guy where they had "Jesus" doing magic tricks at a birthday party did not make me think or consider theology, it made me just change the channel once I figured out there was no "redemptive message" and just mocked the savior. Neither here nor there, just a stray thought.

Was it a Christian or Secular college?

Secular. Very secular.