Federal Vision Spreading To Baptists? James White & Andrew Sandlin

Discussion in 'Federal Vision/New Perspectives' started by psycheives, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Very concerned! Apologia has gone way too far in inviting FV's Sandlin and Sumpter

    18.6%
  2. Very concerned! Dr Clark was right to warn us the first time but sadly Apologia still didn't stop!

    14.0%
  3. Concerned but I want to give Apologia time to show their true colors and intentions

    23.3%
  4. Concerned but I'll wait to hear from Apologia to see how they justify it or explain it away

    7.0%
  5. Not concerned

    41.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. psycheives

    psycheives Puritan Board Freshman

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  2. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Puritan Board Sophomore

    When I listened to White's reply to the concerns on A/O, I was a bit troubled. Basically (to my ear) he seemed to say that these matters are simply adiaphora, and that by questioning Wilson (who White finds to be a brilliant fellow), one is simply being a 'fundamentalist'.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Sad Sad x 1
    • List
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Wilson's fake-repentance a few years ago was marketing move of sheer genius.
     
  4. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    isn't a fundamentalist though merely a Baptist who upholds the essentials of the Faith, which FV is not?
     
  5. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    You can't hold to FV and be a member of the PB so that option should not really be there so I have removed it. If this is being explained away then I'm concerned. But not sure this is any different than what is already happening or happened in the PCA.
     
  6. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    "Fundamentalist" today is basically a derogatory term to mean "someone who is slightly more strict than I am."
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Funny Funny x 6
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Amen Amen x 1
    • List
  7. Joshua

    Joshua Administrator Staff Member

    That’s just something fundamentalists say, Jacob. :lol: :pilgrim: ;)
     
    • Funny Funny x 7
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  8. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth Puritan Board Sophomore

    I should have added 'rabid' to "fundamentalist". That's how White was using the term, in my opinion.
     
  9. arapahoepark

    arapahoepark Puritan Board Graduate

    It's too bad White is rubbing elbows with them and his explanation was cheesy. That said, I doubt Apologia is close to FV the way Clark implies. Most of what I see comes down to cultural conservatism, something they do rather well while other denominations don't.
     
  10. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    How come there's no "Not concerned" option?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Sad Sad x 1
    • List
  11. NaphtaliPress

    NaphtaliPress Administrator Staff Member

    Moderating. I have now added that option in place of the pro FV option I deleted as noted above.
     
  12. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    Not concerned.

    Apologia (as Baptists) partnering with FV Paedobaptists on topics that have nothing to do with Covenant Theology issues is no more concerning than Apologia (as Baptists) partnering with non-FV Paedobaptists on topics that have nothing to do with Covenant Theology issues.
     
    • Sad Sad x 4
    • Like Like x 3
    • Amen Amen x 1
    • List
  13. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    Except that there is a massive difference, as Federal Visionism arguably overturns justification by faith alone.
     
    • Like Like x 8
    • Amen Amen x 5
    • Rejoicing Rejoicing x 1
    • List
  14. Charles Johnson

    Charles Johnson Puritan Board Freshman

    It's hard to take Dr Clark seriously on these matters, since his articles tend to read more like a conspiracy theory web than something written by an erudite professor of theology. His bold mischaracterization of the tweet from Mr Wedgeworth alone is worth a chuckle. Mr Wedgeworth's actual viewpoint on the FV is not, as Clark incorrectly states, that the FV does not exist, but that there are at least three distinct (but related) paradigms within the FV movement. His analysis tends to be a lot more intelligent than Clark's "most things I disagree with (including Piper!) are connected to FV and all FV is basically the same."
     
    • Like Like x 5
    • Amen Amen x 1
    • List
  15. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    None of which has anything to do with the areas in which Apologia has partnered with certain FV leaning paedobaptists.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Sad Sad x 2
    • List
  16. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    So, partnering with people who hold dubious views on justification by faith alone does not concern you?
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Amen Amen x 1
    • Rejoicing Rejoicing x 1
    • List
  17. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    Well, James White was an elder of my church for six of the seven years I've been a member there and is also a friend of mine. He's actually also debated Doug Wilson on this topic and his point of view on this matter couldn't be more clear.

    So, no. It doesn't really concern me one bit.
     
    • Sad Sad x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  18. SeanPatrickCornell

    SeanPatrickCornell Puritan Board Freshman

    Here's a much better question to ask:

    WHY is Apologia "partnering" with the Wilsonites? What WORK are they accomplishing? Why is the Wilsonite camp doing the heavy lifting in this area and WHY are non-FV paedobaptists NOT doing it?
     
  19. Grant Jones

    Grant Jones Puritan Board Junior

    Help me out here:

    1. What area?

    2. What is "heavy-lifting"?

    3. What is "NOT doing it"?

    :detective:
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2019
  20. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    I have followed his work on and off for 17 years, and he actually preached at my church about 18 months ago (I could not attend for health reasons). These factors make me much more concerned that he is associating with the Wilsonites.

    Again, this factor is all the more reason to be concerned that he is wanting to give a platform to such people. Surely he must know how slippery and dangerous they are.

    I recall years ago hearing people say that we should give the FVers/Wilsonites a pass because they do so much great work on the family and culture, which others were not doing. Maybe others could be doing more, but this approach is surely setting family and cultural issues above the gospel. Besides, there was a fair lot of legalism and "creative" exegesis going on in FV cultural commentary.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Amen Amen x 1
    • Rejoicing Rejoicing x 1
    • List
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I listened to it when it first came out. That was more of a "Friendly disagreement" than one of White's typical debates.
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  22. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Doctor

    One can fault it's judgemental stance, but not it's theology regarding salvation.
     
  23. psycheives

    psycheives Puritan Board Freshman

    There was! Chris deleted it. But now added it back w/o the original FV comment attached.
     
  24. EcclesiaDiscens.

    EcclesiaDiscens. Puritan Board Freshman

    I used to love Dr. Clark’s work but his attitude of “Everything I don’t like is Federal Vision/neonomianism!” Has put me off his work unfortunately.

    The insinuation that Jeff Durbin and Dr. White are forgoing justification by Faith alone is absurd.

    It’s on the level of Pulpit and Pen conspiracy theory and six degrees of Kevin Bacon guilt by association in my opinion.

    Why are people gravitating toward Wilson, Durbin, and co’s method of cultural engagement? Honestly in my opinion it’s because the church has surrendered that to the modernists and Tolerance Mafia and favored a weak method of cultural apologetic that shames any use of the serrated edge of the gospel and apologetics.
     
  25. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    With the exception of the Revoice guys in the PCA, who in the NAPARC are abandoning the culture to the Tolerance Mafia?

    No, White isn't compromising justification by faith alone. But for him to associate with a group that "still affirms what I wrote in the FV Joint Statement" is troubling.
     
    • Like Like x 9
    • Rejoicing Rejoicing x 1
    • List
  26. Charles Johnson

    Charles Johnson Puritan Board Freshman

    FV theology is similar in a lot of ways to Book of Concord Lutheranism. In some respects, like christology, the errors of Lutherans are far more severe. I'm not a Lutheran, I don't worship with Lutherans if there's a Reformed Church around, and I pray that Lutherans would come to a better understanding of the truth, but if I were to see that a Lutheran were speaking at a conference, I wouldn't sound the alarm, and I wouldn't condemn others for associating with them, etc. I wouldn't mind seeing moderate FV types treated more like Lutherans and less like Arians. Sure, they shouldn't be able to teach their errors in Reformed Churches, but moderation in rhetoric and charity in judgments would be good in my opinion.
     
  27. Reformed Covenanter

    Reformed Covenanter Puritan Board Doctor

    :agree: and I would also agree that R. Scott Clark goes a bit overboard in asserting that anyone who disagrees with him is pro-Federal Vision. Sadly, though, this tendency is nothing new. Back when theonomy was still a hot topic, many of us got frustrated with him on this very point as it was harming the anti-FV case to yoke all the theonomists with the FV. Now, that is not to say that there was not a link at all between the theonomy movement and the FV, but it should have been more clearly acknowledged that one could be a theonomist without being an FVer.

    That said, for those who oppose the FV to be giving a platform to someone who still upholds FV theology - even if they have abandoned the label - is a serious cause for concern and they should be kindly admonished to give up these associations.
     
  28. EcclesiaDiscens.

    EcclesiaDiscens. Puritan Board Freshman

    Has the former PCA RE in Houston who ran on a pro sodomite, pro abortion ticket been church disciplined? If not why not? Why has everyone just forgotten all about that?

    Why can P&R publishing publish a book that denies historic Reformed teaching on men and women, have it endorsed by big names, and anyone who disagrees is labeled as a sympathizer of DW and Vision Forum?

    This type of thing is a symptom of a systemic issue in the PCA and NAPARC. It shows that we’re far more affected by the culture and it’s benevolent Enlightenment secular humanism than we realize.

    Young people see this and they’re far more perceptive then we realize and far more susceptible to people who will promise them a way out of all that. Until we get folks willing to be straight up and uncompromising like the Crosspolitic, DW folks, we’ll see younger people gravitate to this more of a no holds barred engagement with the root and branch of the Militant Secularism engulfing our nation.


    This entire thing belies one big issue though,
    Don’t Baptists deny the objectivity of the Covenant and therefore it’s impossible for them to be FV?
     
  29. EcclesiaDiscens.

    EcclesiaDiscens. Puritan Board Freshman

    I agree with this. Among the strains of FV the quasi Lutheran ones can be made peace with.
     
  30. BottleOfTears

    BottleOfTears Puritan Board Freshman

    I wasn't aware Lutherans were in the business of denying/undermining justification by faith alone.

    Also, Lutherans are very clear that they are Lutherans, FV people claim to be Reformed, and are a lot more vague in what they believe. That's why its more of an issue, people read Doug Wilson for his cultural commentary and such, and this other stuff gets stuck in under the radar. It's a lot harder to parse the good from the bad in those situations.

    Another thing is, even if James White was right that Baptists can't be FV so him and his crew are safe from such errors, does he not realise lots of non-baptists listen/watch his material? Is he fine with just exposing them to heresy?
     
    • Like Like x 6
    • Amen Amen x 3
    • Rejoicing Rejoicing x 1
    • List

Share This Page