Federal Vision Update

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C. Matthew McMahon

Christian Preacher
Its interesting to me how many people seem to be having a "slack" or "overly sensitive" disposition to the Federal Vision. I suppose part of that comes from waiting for respective denominations to make a "judgment" call on the Federal Vision overall.

I thought this was simple and straigth forward article reviewing a couple of books - one for the FV and one against it. I don't usually read things from the Trinity Foundation, but these two reviews I thought were simple and helpful.

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Federal Vision*

David Engelsma

Editors Note: This essay is reprinted from the November 2005 issue of The Protestant Reformed Theological Journal.

The Federal Vision, Steve Wilkins and Duane Garner, editors. Monroe, Louisiana: Athanasius Press, 2004. 299 pages, $21.95 (paper).

Written by several of the leading proponents of the heresy now solidly entrenched in most of the reputedly conservative Presbyterian and Reformed churches, and spreading, The Federal Vision brazenly defends justification by works; universal covenant grace to every child of believing parents, if not to every person sprinkled with water in the name of the triune God; an election unto grace that fails to save; baptismal regeneration; and the falling away of many who were once united to Christ. Among the authors are Steve Wilkins, John Barach, Rich Lusk, Peter J. Leithart, Steve Schlissel, James Jordan, and Douglas Wilson.

Justification by Works

The movement that calls itself the "œfederal vision" teaches justification by the obedience of the sinner. "œThe presuppositions undergirding Paul´s statement [in Romans 2:13] include the facts that the Law is "˜obeyable,´ that truly responding to the Law (the Word) in faith does justify" (Schlissel, 260). Romans 2:13 states that "œthe doers of the law shall be justified." Schlissel´s comment on the text, that the "œLaw is "˜obeyable,´" affirms justification by deeds of obedience to the law.

Schlissel denies that Romans 3:28 has any and all human works in view when it speaks of the "œdeeds of the law": "œTherefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rather, the reference is only to "œJewish" deeds, that is, ceremonial works done with the motive of meriting salvation (260, 261). According to Schlissel, the apostle merely excludes "œJewish" deeds from justification. Other deeds, deeds performed by the believer in the power of true faith, are included in justification. The Apostle Paul concluded that a man is justified by faith without deeds "” any deed and all deeds. Steve Schlissel concludes that a man is justified by faith with deeds "” deeds performed by faith.

Peter Leithart charges the Reformation with distorting the truth of justification: "œThe Reformation doctrine of justification has illegitimately narrowed and to some extent distorted the biblical doctrine" (209). The distortion is the Reformation´s sharply distinguishing justification and sanctification and its insistence that justification is a verdict (211, 213). Leithart argues that justification in Scripture has "œa much wider scope of application than the strictly judicial" (209). In fact, according to Leithart, "œjustifying is never merely declaring a verdict" (213; the emphasis is the author´s). Justification is also the sanctifying work of God within the sinner enabling him to perform good works, which then become part of his righteousness with God, as Rome has been teaching for the past five hundred years.

Resistible Grace

The "œfederal vision" teaches that the saving grace of God in Christ is universal within the sphere of the covenant, but that this grace can be resisted and lost. Everyone who is baptized, particularly every child of believing parents who is baptized, is savingly united to Christ, although many later fall away and perish:

Non-elect covenant members are actually brought to Christ, united to Him and the Church in baptism, receive various gracious operations of the Holy Spirit, and may even be said to be loved by God for a time"¦. In some sense, they were really joined to the elect people, really sanctified by Christ´s blood, and really recipients of new life given by the Holy Spirit. The sacraments they received had objective force and efficacy [Lusk, 288].

God truly brings those people into His covenant, into union with Christ. They are "œin Him," to use Jesus´ words in John 15. They share in His blessings (think of Hebrews 6). They experience His love, but that covenant relationship is conditional. It calls for repentance and faith and new obedience. God´s choice was not conditional, but life in the covenant is [Barach, 37; the emphasis is the author´s].

The new covenant theology in the Reformed and Presbyterian churches teaches that election fails to save many whom God chooses. It teaches that the eternal election of Ephesians 1:4 and Colossians 3:12 fails to save many who are the objects of this gracious choice. "œAnd yet not all who are united to the Elect One, Jesus Christ, remain in Him and fulfill the high vocation that election brings with it. It is still to be seen who will persevere and who will fall away from within the elect people" (Lusk, 294).

Baptismal Regeneration

The movement teaches baptismal regeneration. The ceremony of sprinkling with water in the name of the triune God effects the temporary regeneration and salvation of everyone baptized. It effects regeneration by the power of the Spirit, but the ceremony regenerates and saves everyone who is baptized, particularly every infant of godly parents. This regeneration and salvation can be lost. "œThe threshold into union with Christ, new life in the Spirit, and covenant membership in the family of God is actually crossed when the child is baptized" (Lusk, 109).

The advocates of the "œfederal vision" teach the falling away of covenant saints from saving covenant grace. They teach the falling away of saints aggressively. The falling away of covenant saints is one of their favorite doctrines:

Those who ultimately prove to be reprobate may be in covenant with God. They may enjoy for a season the blessings of the covenant, including the forgiveness of sins, adoption, possession of the kingdom, sanctification, etc., and yet apostatize and fall short of the grace of God [Wilkins, 62].

Clearly, then, Hebrews 6:4-8 teaches the possibility of a real apostasy. Some people do indeed fall away, and it is a real fall from grace. Apostates actually lose blessings they once possessed. Apostasy is so terribly heinous precisely because it is sin against grace [Lusk, 274; the emphasis is the author´s].

Lusk manages to incorporate all of the false doctrines mentioned above in a paragraph that could have been written by James Arminius or Cardinal Bellarmine:

All covenant members are invited to attain to a full and robust confidence that they are God´s eternally elect ones. Starting with their baptisms, they have every reason to believe God loves them and desires their eternal salvation. Baptism marks them out as God´s elect people, a status they maintain so long as they persevere in faithfulness. By looking to Christ alone, the preeminently Elect One, the One who kept covenant to the end and is the Author and Finisher of the faith of God´s people, they may find assurance. But those who take their eyes off Christ, who desert the Church where His presence is found, who forsake the external means of salvation, will make shipwreck of their faith and prove to have received the grace of God in vain [289].

The "œfederal vision" rejects sovereign grace in the sphere of the covenant. In the sphere of the covenant, particularly among the children of believers, election fails, Christ died for all, grace is resistible, justification is by works, saved saints fall away to perdition, and salvation depends on the will of the sinner.

A Conditional Covenant

The root of the heresy is an erroneous doctrine of the covenant. The doctrine of the covenant being developed by the movement teaches that God graciously makes His covenant with all the children of believers alike. In the sphere of the covenant, regarding all baptized babies without exception, grace is universal. The movement is one of covenantal universalism. But the covenant is conditional. Whether the covenant is continued with a child, whether a child continues in the covenant, whether a child continues to enjoy union with Christ and covenant grace, and whether a child is finally saved by the grace of the covenant depend upon the child´s faith and obedience. The movement is full-fledged Arminianism in the realm of the covenant.

In short, the error whence all the denial of sovereign, particular, irresistible grace springs is a covenant doctrine that refuses to permit God´s election to control covenant grace and salvation.

[Hebrews 6 and similar] passages simply speak of the undifferentiated grace of God [Lusk, 275, 276; the emphasis is the author´s].

God truly brings those people into His covenant, into union with Christ. They are "œin Him," to use Jesus´ words in John 15. They share in His blessings (think of Hebrews 6). They experience His love, but that covenant relationship is conditional. It calls for repentance and faith and new obedience. God´s choice was not conditional, but life in the covenant is [Barach, 37].

To be in covenant is to have the treasures of God´s mercy and grace and the love which He has for His own Son given to you. But the covenant is not unconditional. It requires persevering faithfulness.... The covenant is dependent upon persevering faith [Wilkins, 64, 65; the emphasis is the author´s].

Our salvation covenant with the Lord is like a marriage. If we persevere in loyalty to Christ, we will live with Him happily ever after. If we break the marriage covenant, He will divorce us [Lusk, 285, 286].

Contempt for the Creeds

The Reformed creeds mean nothing to these men, all of whom loudly protest that they are Reformed. The Canons of Dordt reject the Arminian heresy that "œthere is one election unto faith and another unto salvation, so that election can be unto justifying faith without being a decisive election unto salvation." The reason is that this teaching is

a fancy of men´s minds, invented regardless of the Scriptures, whereby the doctrine of election is corrupted, and this golden chain of our salvation is broken: "œAnd whom He foreordained, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified" (Romans 8:30) [Canons of Dordt, I, Rejection of Errors/2].

Contradicting the Canons and breaking the "œgolden chain of our salvation" bother Rich Lusk not at all. With (undocumented) appeal to Augustine, he distinguishes a "œpredestination unto grace," which is only temporary and does "œnot lead to final salvation," from "œpredestination unto perseverance," which does issue in final salvation (275).

With cavalier disregard for the teaching of the Reformed creeds, James B. Jordan denies that Jesus merited salvation for His people. "œNowhere [in Scripture] is Jesus´ accomplishment spoken of as earning salvation" (192). "œWhat we receive is not Jesus´ merits, but His maturity, His glorification" (195).

Absurdity and "œFuzzy-edged Mystery"

James Jordan´s presence in the book is significant. Jordan is one of the old-guard Christian Reconstructionists, involved in the fiasco of Tyler, Texas, where an early attempt to bring in Christian Reconstruction´s earthly kingdom died aborning. Jordan connects the original movement of Christian Reconstruction with its contemporary manifestation. It should not be overlooked that most of the men of the "œfederal vision" are zealots on behalf of postmillennial Christian Reconstruction.

James B. Jordan is the wildest hare started by Christian Reconstruction. His speciality is allegorical, fantastical exegesis. In comparison with Jordan, Origen and Harold Camping are pikers. According to Jordan, Adam in Paradise would eventually have eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil with God´s approval. Adam would then have died a "œgood-death." By this "œgood-death," he would have been glorified, maturing into eternal life. This would have enabled Adam to fight the dragon for a while in the unfallen world at large. But Adam would have needed help. Help would have appeared in the form, not of St. George or Frodo, but of the incarnate Son of God. The eternal Son would have become incarnate even if Adam had remained obedient. But the incarnate Son likewise would have passed through the "œgood-death" of eating the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, so that He too could "œmature." This fantasy is further embellished by Jordan with mind-boggling theories about garments and distinctions among animal, vegetable, and mineral (151-200).

If James Jordan is the exegete of the "œfederal vision," the movement is not only heretical but also absurd.

The absurd is the unintelligible.

Theological unintelligibility does not trouble Rich Lusk. Bravely drawing the inevitable conclusion from his premise that the Bible is not logical, Lusk is content to "œlive with fuzzy-edged mystery" (279). "œFuzzy-edged mystery" is "œfederal vision" language for ignorance. The specific area in which Lusk is content to live in his "œfuzzy-edged mystery" is the Biblical doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Lusk readily admits that his doctrine of an illogical Bible, which is full of contradictions, particularly concerning the perseverance of the saints, derives from his "œbiblical-theological/redemptive-historical" method of interpreting the Bible, in opposition to what Lusk calls a "œsystematic/dogmatic" method (280).

In fact, Lusk´s "œfuzzy-edged mystery" is due to his denial that Holy Scripture as the inspired Word of God is non-contradictory and logical, as non-contradictory and logical as the God whose Word it is. As the written Word of God, Scripture is clear, sharp-edged, and certain revelation, particularly of God´s preservation unto glory of every recipient of His grace. Scripture is clear, sharp-edged, and certain to faith.

"œLuther´s Malady"

It falls to Steve Schlissel to make the most despicable attack on the Gospel of grace. Schlissel calls Luther´s knowledge of himself as a guilty sinner before a just God, out of which Spirit-worked knowledge came his understanding of the Bible´s Gospel of justification by faith alone, "œLuther´s malady" (255). Luther´s sickness! Justification by faith alone, therefore, is a diseased doctrine. Since justification by faith alone is the cornerstone of the entire Reformation Gospel, the entire Reformation Gospel of sovereign grace is sick.

This "œmalady," the men of the "œfederal vision" are determined to cure by a massive infusion of works-righteousness into the theology of Presbyterian and Reformed churches and into the spiritual lives of Presbyterian and Reformed people. The device by which works-righteousness is injected into the bloodstream of the churches and people influenced by the "œfederal vision" is the doctrine of a conditional covenant.

The heresy of the "œfederal vision" is deep and broad. It penetrates to the heart of the Gospel, and it extends to all the doctrines of grace. It can be refuted and rooted out only by the doctrine of a covenant of unconditional, particular grace. And this is why the Presbyterian and Reformed churches where the heresy is boldly taught are both unwilling and unable to resist it.

******************************

Book Review #2

Justification and the New Perspectives on Paul: A Review and Response, by Guy Prentiss Waters. Presbyterian & Reformed, 2004. Paperback, 274 pages, $16.99. Reviewed by Pastor Edwin C. Urban, OPC.

Many in the conservative Presbyterian denominations are waking up, rubbing their eyes, and beginning to see that their communions are embroiled in a controversy that they never dreamed could have arisen in their Reformed churches. The controversy is over the nature and definition of justification. This debate is shaking the foundations of these denominations and is having a distinctly polarizing effect within them and between them.

It behooves every pastor and elder, the overseers of their flocks, to study and assess the now conflicting views that are being proposed regarding the nature of justification "“ a primary doctrinal concern of the Protestant Reformation. Much excellent material is being written and published regarding this debate.

One of the best books is Justification and the New Perspectives on Paul by Guy Prentiss Waters, B.A. in Greek and Latin, University of Pennsylvania; M.Div., Westminster Theological Seminary; and Ph.D., Duke University (concentrations in New Testament, Old Testament, and Ancient Judaism).

At Duke, Dr. Waters studied under Richard B. Hays and E. P. Sanders, two leading expositors of the New Perspectives on Paul. Dr. Waters is a member of the Society of Biblical Literature and the Institute for Biblical Research. He is an ordained minister of the Presbyterian Church in America.

D. A. Carson, well known New Testament scholar, has written of Waters' book:

In the last few years there have been several careful evaluations and critiques of the New Perspective. This one excels for its combination of simplicity, fair-dealing, historical awareness, and penetration. For the pastor who is vaguely aware of the debates, but who has little mastery of the confusing details, this book's careful presentation of each scholar's position is a model of accuracy and clarity. Even those who have been pondering the issues for years will see some things in a fresh light. The ability of Waters to combine exegetical, historical, biblical-theological, and systematic reflections, and all in relatively brief compass, enhances the credibility of the argument. Combine these virtues with pedagogically helpful chapter summaries and an annotated bibliography, and it is easy to see why this book deserves wide circulation.

In reading this book, this reviewer was fascinated by the historical links the author establishes between the early exponents of the "historical-critical" school, F. C. Bauer and Wilhelm Bousset, through Albert Schweitzer, to Rudolph Bultmann and Ernst Kasemann, with the major authors of the New Perspective, E. P. Sanders, James D. G. Dunn and N. T. Wright. Waters has skillfully traced the affinities of the heterodox positions of this two hundred-year-old line of critical descent with the contemporary advocates of the New Perspectives on Paul, and beyond that, with Reformed circles close to home.

In the Preface, projecting the course along which his arguments will run, Waters writes, "I will"¦attempt to explain why officers and congregants within Reformed and evangelical churches find the New Perspectives on Paul attractive, and why such interest often attends interest in the theology of Norman Shepherd and the theology represented in the September 2002 statement of the session of the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church."

Among the reasons for writing this book, Waters, in the Preface, writes, "I want to illustrate the ways in which the New Perspectives on Paul deviate from the doctrines set forth in the Westminster Standards. I also want to show how Reformed theology surpasses the New Perspectives on Paul in explaining Paul's statements regarding the law, the righteousness of God, justification, and a host of other topics and doctrines."

Waters concludes his book with these remarks:

All expressions of Christianity are on the path to one of two destinations, Rome or Geneva. What the New Perspectives on Paul offer us is decidedly not "œGenevan""¦. It seems that there are elements active in the Reformed churches that wish to lead the church into a sacramental religion, all in the name of being "œmore Reformed." If we examine their arguments carefully, we see that what they are really and increasingly saying is that Luther and Calvin were mistaken, and that Trent was right. May God give us grace that we may not squander the rich theological heritage bequeathed to us by the Reformers, historic British Calvinism, and American Presbyterianism. May we model, in spirit and teaching, that "œpattern of teaching" preserved so faithfully by our forefathers.

After reading this book, it has become clearer to this reviewer that those in Reformed circles who have fallen under the influence of Sanders, Dunn, and Wright "“ whether they are conscious of it or not "“ are rejecting the federal theology of the Westminster Standards and are promoting, not just a refinement of the doctrine of justification, but a completely new system of doctrine.

January 2005

* "Vision: 1a: something seen in a dream, trance, or ecstasy, specifically a supernatural appearance that conveys a revelation; b: an object of imagination....2a: the act or power of imagination...."


The above information can be found at:
http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=221
 
Very good article by Engelsma. But you know what the FVist will say in response. "Oh you've misunderstood us". "We believe in ecclesiastical regeneration as well as salvific regeneration", "We believe in corporate election/justification as well as individual election/justification" etc etc. Has anyone else observed this type of response from the more conservative FVist?
 
See, JR does come out with pertinent info. I still get his stuff also. Even though he would condemn me for being credo or something else. I find him very helpful still.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by puritancovenanter]
 
Originally posted by VanVos
"Oh you've misunderstood us".

More than the Bible, that is thier motto.

Every one of them will say that. When I posted a critique on Smith's book, that was basically the answer I recieved.
 
Great stuff. Jordan IS a nut. He is probably one of the worst exegetes in recent history, yet for some reason, internet trend followers think he is sliced bread's cousin. Schlissel and Wilkins are just as bad, if not worse. May God and His Word and the true Gospel prevail amidst such insanity and perversion.
 
It seems incontrovertible to me that

1. Adam would have been allowed to eat from the Tree
a. knowledge of good and evil isn't a bad thing in the bible
b. its something that the mature man, or the king posesses

2. Since God said 'in the day you eat it you will die', that when Adam would be allowed to eat it he would die. That is, after all, what God said would happen.
a. There is a parallel in the narrative with the creation of the woman (God brings animals, Adam sees his lack, Adam goes into a coma, God chops Adam up, God provides a woman corresponding to God allows the serpent to enter, Adam is naked...so what should happen next?)
b. a deep-sleep/coma is 'near death', and so the 'good death' (death outside of the realm of sin), seems to have a fair basis in the text.

3. The Bible presents a war between a dragon, the child of the woman, and the rest of her offspring. If Englemsa wants to mock that as a fantasy novel, well, maybe he doesn't belive genesis 1-3 is a literal account. I mean really, "talking animals"? :p

Somebody has to to a better job arguing against the exegetical issues in genesis 1 than merely mocking a man for taking them at face value.
 
I thought the articles were helpful except for that last paragraph of Engelsma. Unless you are familiar with PRC distinctives, you probably didn't catch the big jab he made at the traditional Reformed faith. He essentially is saying that if you hold to any view of "conditionality" in the gospel (i.e. free offer, common grace, etc.) you can't repel the FV. If you aren't familiar with Hoeksema's work then you probably didn't catch it. He 's basically putting in a plug for the PRC and their own PRC monocovenantalism and denial of common grace. Other than that he had a very good analysis of the FV.
 
Originally posted by pduggan
It seems incontrovertible to me that

1. Adam would have been allowed to eat from the Tree
a. knowledge of good and evil isn't a bad thing in the bible
b. its something that the mature man, or the king posesses

2. Since God said 'in the day you eat it you will die', that when Adam would be allowed to eat it he would die. That is, after all, what God said would happen.
a. There is a parallel in the narrative with the creation of the woman (God brings animals, Adam sees his lack, Adam goes into a coma, God chops Adam up, God provides a woman corresponding to God allows the serpent to enter, Adam is naked...so what should happen next?)
b. a deep-sleep/coma is 'near death', and so the 'good death' (death outside of the realm of sin), seems to have a fair basis in the text.

3. The Bible presents a war between a dragon, the child of the woman, and the rest of her offspring. If Englemsa wants to mock that as a fantasy novel, well, maybe he doesn't belive genesis 1-3 is a literal account. I mean really, "talking animals"? :p

Somebody has to to a better job arguing against the exegetical issues in genesis 1 than merely mocking a man for taking them at face value.

Are you defending Jordon's interpretations?
 
It should not be overlooked that most of the men of the "œfederal vision" are zealots on behalf of postmillennial Christian Reconstruction.

The author makes this comment in the context of James Jordan, but it should be pointed out that Jordan no longer considers himself a theonomist/reconstructionist. The comment as it stands is merely an attempt by the author to poison the well against two other hobby horse issues in the PRC: Christian Reconstruction and postmillennialism.

I'm no defender of the hermeneutical excesses of James Jordan (interpretive maximalism, a form of Redemptive-Historical interpretation) and his fellow travelers in the FV cadre, but the backhanded slap at confessional reconstructionists is unnecessary.

The irony here is that the father of the R-H method, Geerhardus Vos, is also in the same theological stream as the PRC folks. One could just as easily pin the excesses of Jordan on Dutch influences as on CR.
 
Originally posted by puritansailor

Are you defending Jordon's interpretations?

At least the portions of them that I line out above. And against dismissals that they are absurd fantasies.

Are you offering a substantive criticism of the interpretations?
 
Waiting for your reply; I see on your blog that you are defending the FV against some statements made by my former Pastor Rick Phillips.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Waiting for your reply; I see on your blog that you are defending the FV against some statements made by my former Pastor Rick Phillips.

My former pastor too, actually. ;) Actually, I'd defending Wright vs. Phillips, not the FV.

Define "federal vision". I hold to the WCF. I think Schlissel makes some intemperate remarks, though I'd still like to see him critiqued accurately.

I think Jordan's exegesis is by and large, fine, though I'm happy to hear critiques of it.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by pduggan]
 
Originally posted by pduggan
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Waiting for your reply; I see on your blog that you are defending the FV against some statements made by my former Pastor Rick Phillips.

My former pastor too, actually. ;) Actually, I'd defending Wright vs. Phillips, not the FV.

Define "federal vision". I hold to the WCF. I think Schlissel makes some intemperate remarks, though I'd still like to see him critiqued accurately.

I think Jordan's exegesis is by and large, fine, though I'm happy to hear critiques of it.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by pduggan]

Paul,
Do you subscribe to what Schlissel et. al. call FV?
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey
Do you subscribe to what Schlissel et. al. call FV?

I doubt it, but then I don't have a firm grasp of a coherent position from Schlissel.

Can you point me to a web page where he lines out what he means by 'FV'?

I think he said some useful things about problems in the Puritan view of assurance, but I already hold to the WCF vs. the Savoy declaration.

I could remark on the parts listed in the article, if that helps:
"œThe presuppositions undergirding Paul´s statement [in Romans 2:13] include the facts that the Law is "˜obeyable,´ that truly responding to the Law (the Word) in faith does justify" (Schlissel, 260).
I'd disagree with what that seems to be saying, which is that the law is doable by the natural man. I'd note that it contradicts Wright's exegesis of the passage, which makes the 'doing of the law' in 2:13 to mysteriously be, in fact, faith itself, not an acceptable lawkeeping by faith.

Schlissel denies that Romans 3:28 has any and all human works in view when it speaks of the "œdeeds of the law": "œTherefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Rather, the reference is only to "œJewish" deeds, that is, ceremonial works done with the motive of meriting salvation (260, 261). According to Schlissel, the apostle merely excludes "œJewish" deeds from justification. Other deeds, deeds performed by the believer in the power of true faith, are included in justification. The Apostle Paul concluded that a man is justified by faith without deeds "” any deed and all deeds. Steve Schlissel concludes that a man is justified by faith with deeds "” deeds performed by faith.
If that is what Schlissel is saying, and he has not qualified or retracted it I'd oppose it. I very much disagree that Paul's opposition to works done with a view to meriting a righteous verdict are restrcited to ceremonial Jewish deeds. All deeds would be so excluded, though.

The Spirit surely produces (judicial? is there any other kind) righteousness in the believer, though. As Calvin says
Do you wish, then, to attain righteousness in Christ? You must first possess Christ; but you cannot possess him without being made partaker in his sanctification, because he cannot be divided into pieces

I'm really more interested in the exegetical matters raised by Jordan in the FV book. I'll repost my 'incontrovertible' claims in the historical books forum if anyone wants to debat it there.

[Edited on 1-4-2006 by pduggan]
 
Scott, one can agree with eclectic ideas from FV authors without embracing FV in totality.

As proven by the "Where was Calvin wrong" thread.
 
Originally posted by Saiph
Scott, one can agree with eclectic ideas from FV authors without embracing FV in totality.

As proven by the "Where was Calvin wrong" thread.

Mark,
I agree. However, FV is blatant heresy! And I oppose it as does this board.
 
Originally posted by Scott Bushey

Mark,
I agree. However, FV is blatant heresy! And I oppose it as does this board.

Scott,

In all honesty, the accusations towards FV, and the writings of FV authors do not coincide when I read them both.

I do not agree with the denial of the covenant of works, nor the redefinition of "covenant" to be the Trinitarian relationship, nor the idea that Adam would have been granted salvoconducto to eat the fruit, nor many other ideas ad infinitum. But I still enjoy their literary approach to the scriptures, and I do not see the accusations of heresy being validated by contextual quotes of these men, along with the scriptures that refute their ideas.

Perhaps in time, more scholarly refutations will be made. But as for now they make for interesting discussions.
 
Mark,
As piece meal, they present, or sound as if orthodox, yet they are viral when compiled. The means to the end in their regard is confusion. The discipline is invisibly virulent and many a man has fallen prey to the error.
 
Paul,
I wish some of your expressed convictions on Genesis 1-3 weren't incontrovertible to you. Then, perhaps you might be open to embracing valuable historical exegesis on the subject. At least you are open to hearing critiques...

It certainly is not the case that Adam should ultimately (with God's permission) have eaten of the tree if the design of the sacrament was that it not be eaten. The following excerpt from Keil is instructive:

http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=4514#pid53286

Men were meant to have a truly God-like knowledge of good and evil. God does not know evil by participation in it. The knowledge spoken of was obtainable precisely by obedience to the command.

To construe a warning: "in the day ye eat of it, thou shalt surely die," as something to be anticipated as a privilege when such a restriction was lifted is contrary to the sense of the thing, and palpable speculation.

"Interpretive maximalism" is simply Alexandrian exegesis redivivus; you may mock Engelsma's observation and mine if you will. It is not the sober recovery of biblical exegesis that the Reformers (in line with the 15th century humanists) recovered for the church. They make occasional interesting reading, but are of little or no value in teaching or in fostering true spirituality. Only the true sense of Scripture can do that.

As Wm. Ames said, the meaning of every scripture is one, "for anything that does not mean one thing surely means nothing."
 
Mark,

Do you have:

Justification and the New Perspectives on Paul: A Review and Response, by Guy Prentiss Waters

?

That would be a great overview tracing much farther back than simply the FV information. It houses everything AA, NPP and FV have in common and how they were birthed.
 
Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
Mark,

Do you have:

Justification and the New Perspectives on Paul: A Review and Response, by Guy Prentiss Waters

?

That would be a great overview tracing much farther back than simply the FV information. It houses everything AA, NPP and FV have in common and how they were birthed.

Hey Matt & guys...

see what WSC is up to:

http://www.wscal.org/faculty/covenant_and_justification_book.htm

The guys have been working hard preparing to engage this for a while now... (I recall having my first class over 2 years back. ??)

The CD lectures, "The Foolishness of the Gospel" (available from Westminster) is a great source! The book is expected soon. (The new seminar is certain to have CD's available. ??)

(whistling.... :sing: ) O, Dr. Clark...tell us how things are coming along with this stuff, OK?

Robin





[Edited on 1-5-2006 by Robin]
 
Originally posted by C. Matthew McMahon
Mark,

Do you have:

Justification and the New Perspectives on Paul: A Review and Response, by Guy Prentiss Waters

?

That would be a great overview tracing much farther back than simply the FV information. It houses everything AA, NPP and FV have in common and how they were birthed.

No I have not. I am not abandoning the reformed concept of alien justification extra nos. But Wright's perspective brings up many questions for me regarding the liminal space between justification and sanctification. I have said before that I think it augments the reformed tradition.

I see different aspects of justification in three spheres: extra nos, intra nos, and supra nos.

God declares us righteous, works righteousness in us, to bring us to an eternal state of righteousness.

[Edited on 1-5-2006 by Saiph]
 
Originally posted by Saiph
I am not abandoning the reformed concept of alien justification extra nos. But Wright's perspective brings up many questions for me regarding the liminal space between justification and sanctification. I have said before that I think it augments the reformed tradition.

I see different aspects of justification in three spheres: extra nos, intra nos, and supra nos.

God declares us righteous, works righteousness in us, to bring us to an eternal state of righteousness.

:up:
 
Interesting discussion. You guys make me realize how much more I need to read. Some of the terminology used is new to me but I've been following the discussion for a while.

I would tend to be less sympathetic to the notion that every person who ascribes to portions of the FV to be heretics, especially without an Ecclesiastical body to make that proclamation.

I would agree with Scott that Viral is a good way to describe the effects of the movement. It's only been a couple of years since this movement seemed to surface in force and it looks to rip apart many denominations. Even amils and postmils were able to fellowship together within Presbyterian denominations.

I guess that, even if one is convinced of the need to reform a body, that the schismatic results of pushing too hard, too fast would be a reason to give pause. Why not labor to move forward incrementally?

It just seems to be tearing apart Reformed churches right now and that "fruit" is of much concern to me regardless of the affinity I have for some of the ideas is introduces that we ought to wrestle with.

[Edited on 1-5-2006 by SemperFideles]
 
started by men who deny inerrancy, continued by men who deny justification by faith alone, encouraged by men who can't say what they mean or mean what they say, and actively endorsed by men who redefine TULIP at every turn.....

what's not to love?

I for one am really quite shocked that more denominations have not come out and labelled this cancer for what it is. It is time to cut it out of the Body, kill it before it spreads any further. Even though some of those close to the sources may not be obvious heretics, the very fact that they are playing with this rot should be enough to shun them.

Who is on the Lord's Side?

Well, the current state of affairs has denominations and pastors afraid to stand up and ask the question!

Give them 5 more years, a few General Assemblies, a few resolutions, debates, discussions, and tolerance and this junk will do more damage to the church than liberalism ever has!

:banghead:

[Edited on 1-5-06 by pastorway]
 
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