Feedback on the ESV vs KJV/NKJV translation of Psalm 68

Status
Not open for further replies.

Scott Bushey

Puritanboard Commissioner
It would seem to me, at least at face value, there is a discrepancy here w/ the ESV translation of Psalm 68:11:


11 The Lord gives the word;
the women who announce the news are a great host:

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2016), Ps 68:11.

Interesting that the ESV uses the word, 'women' in this verse. The KJV & the NKJV do not:

11 The Lord gave the word:
Great was the company of those that published it.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 68:11.

11 The Lord gave the word;
Great was the company of those who proclaimed it:

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ps 68:11.

How did the ESV translators come up w/ 'women' in this verse?
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
It would seem to me, at least at face value, there is a discrepancy here w/ the ESV translation:


11 The Lord gives the word;
the women who announce the news are a great host:

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton: Standard Bible Society, 2016), Ps 68:11.

Interesting that the ESV uses the word, 'women' in this verse. The KJV & the NKJV do not:

11 The Lord gave the word:
Great was the company of those that published it.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ps 68:11.

11 The Lord gave the word;
Great was the company of those who proclaimed it:

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ps 68:11.

How did the ESV translators come up w/ 'women' in this verse?
Was it found in the Greek text used for the Esv, and were not the first eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus women?
 

Timotheos

Puritan Board Freshman
It's not just the ESV. The ASV and NASB use "women" as well. I'm sure more do. That is because the participle used in the Hebrew is feminine. So the word הַֽ֝מְבַשְּׂרֹ֗ות is what the ESV translate as "the women who announce the news."

To clarify, I don't believe the OP drew the correct correspondence in bold either. The KJV/NKJV translated the feminine participle as "those who proclaimed/published it." The "company" part you emboldened for the KJV/NKJV is what the ESV translated as "host."

The LXX used a masculine participle, funny enough.
 
Last edited:

Timotheos

Puritan Board Freshman
The only differences between the KJV/NKJV and the others are (1) they changed the word order putting the great host in front rather than at the end of the clause as in the Hebrew (not sure why) & (2) they were not specific about the gender of the participle for those making the announcement.
 

bookslover

Puritan Board Doctor
Was it found in the Greek text used for the ESV, and were not the first eyewitnesses to the resurrected Jesus women?

As you've probably remembered by now, the Psalms were written in Hebrew, not Greek (with the LXX excepted, of course). Not sure about the connection with the resurrection.
 

Dachaser

Puritan Board Doctor
As you've probably remembered by now, the Psalms were written in Hebrew, not Greek (with the LXX excepted, of course). Not sure about the connection with the resurrection.
I should have known that, as indeed the OT were written in mainly Hebrew, and some Aramiac.
 

Padre

Puritan Board Freshman
This is an interesting observation and it may be worth noting that the MEV agrees with the ESV, et al., in this instance.

I would agree with Timotheos, that the choice to use the word women is a legitimate translation of the Hebrew and I do not think it was due to a difference in the mss used.

It's not just the ESV. The ASV and NASB use "women" as well. I'm sure more do. That is because the participle used in the Hebrew is feminine. So the word הַֽ֝מְבַשְּׂרֹ֗ות is what the ESV translate as "the women who announce the news."

I do have a question for the OP... do you think this “discrepancy” in the ESV influences doctrine?
 

TylerRay

Puritan Board Graduate
Gill's comment is instructive:
The Lord gave the word.... The word of the Gospel to his apostles. He committed the word of reconciliation to them; he intrusted them with it, as a sacred depositum; he gave gifts unto them, qualifying them for the ministration of it; he gave them a commission to preach it; and he gave them a door of utterance to speak it as it should be, and an opportunity to publish it. The Targum wrongly interprets it of the word of the law;

Great was the company of those that published it; there were in our Lord's time twelve apostles and seventy disciples, who were sent out to preach the Gospel; and many more in the times of the apostles, and since. The word for "company" signifies an "army": Christ's ministers are soldiers, and war a good warfare; they have weapons which are not carnal, but spiritual, and mighty through God, and they are made to triumph in Christ in every place. And the word rendered "those that published" is in the feminine gender; not as suggesting that women would be preachers of the Gospel under the New Testament dispensation, for that is forbidden, 1 Corinthians 14:34; but in allusion to the custom of women in Israel publishing the victories obtained by their armies and generals; see 1 Samuel 18:7; and it may be it is used to denote the weakness of Gospel ministers in themselves, who have the treasure of the word put into their earthen vessels, that the power may appear to be of God, and not of man; so ministers are called maidens, Proverbs 9:3; and this same word is used of them in Isaiah 40:9. And it may be observed, that notwithstanding it is of the said gender, yet it is by the Targum interpreted of men, thus;

"but Moses and Aaron evangelized the word of God to the great army of Israel.''

And it may also be observed, that this word which signifies a "publishing of good news", is derived from a root which signifies "flesh" denoting, that the good tidings of the Gospel, or of peace and pardon, righteousness, life, and salvation, published in it, are by an incarnate Saviour, or through his assumption of our flesh, and suffering in it.​
 

iainduguid

Puritan Board Sophomore
Tyler,
I am very agreeable and comfortable with Gill's interpretation.
There's no reason Gill couldn't have got to his same application from the ESV, given that the points he is making are based on the Hebrew text, not the KJV. He acknowledges that the original Hebrew word is feminine, because those who carried good news of victories would often be women in the original context. And he has no problem interpreting passages that talk about "women" as applying directly to ministers of the gospel (he cites Prov 9:3). Indeed, if he had stuck simply to the KJV text, he wouldn't have been able to make the points he did about "company" = "army" (perhaps easier to see with the ESV's "host", as in the Lord of hosts) and "women" suggesting the weakness of those who bring the gospel. Using the ESV would have made it easier for people to see the points he was making.

Whether his application is the correct one, or is a bit of an allegorical leap, is another question. Nonetheless, it certainly isn't driven by the translation he is using.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top