Female Pastors-right or wrong?

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Ex-Baptist

Puritan Board Freshman
MY PCUSA church last week recieved a female intern from the local seminary. When she was introduced my wife and I were in shock because we had never had to deal with issue(we are both of Southern Baptist backgrounds.) She can preach but cannot administer the sacruments. Would it be possible for you guys to debate this issue, is it wrong or right for women to preach? Is there anyone on this board who believes it's ok? Sorry 'bout the spelling, still trying to find the spell check on this thing.:puzzled:
 
[b:2babf18a3e]Ex-Baptist wrote:[/b:2babf18a3e]
Would it be possible for you guys to debate this issue, is it wrong or right for women to preach? Is there anyone on this board who believes it's ok?

I think the way you and your wife reacted was very appropriate - SHOCK! I would be very careful about staying at a church that supports women pastors. Over time, your shock may turn into a quiet acceptance of an unbiblical practice. But, that's just my :wr50:.

I think its pretty clear in the scriptures that a woman doesn't qualify to be a pastor/elder. The only argument I know of would be to say that the qualifications given in the scriptures are just cultural, and that they don't apply to us now - but I don't think that argument flies.

Just some thoughts,
Bob

[Edited on 10-21-2003 by blhowes]
 
Yup that argument of culture totally doesn't apply. It is in the same context where Paul is exhorting women to be modest - is that cultural as well? I don't think it is...
 
Yeah, in 1 Tim 2:13 the reason is grounded in creation and the fall... it totally excludes a cultural reason (such as that the women were uneducated and so Paul is [i:e3a413605c]really[/i:e3a413605c] saying that people should be educated...)
Likewise the favorite go to verse for the egalitarians is Gal 3:28. This is by far their favorite verse. Yet I challenge anyone to actually do a contextual reading of that verse and prove the egalitarian point from it. It just isn't what the passage is about!
By the way... the hermeneutic that one has to employ to justify the egalitarian position is the EXACT same hermeneutic that one uses to justify homosexuality. (Could it be that is the reason most egalitarian demonations have capitulated to the homosexual movement so much?)

[Edited on 10-21-2003 by SolaScriptura]
 
I emailed my Uncle, who is a Southern Baptist Moderate, about this similar topic(female elders and decons) and this is a little of what he said: In terms of female elders and deacons, after careful study of the issue, I think a case can be made for it. First, there is evidence of it in both the OT and NT -- Deborah (Judges 4-5), Huldah (2 Kings 22:14ff), and Isaiah's wife (Isaiah 8:3ff) are all prophetesses, as are Anna (Luke 2:36ff) and the daughters of Philip (Acts 21:7-9). In Acts 2, Peter quotes Joel 2 regarding how in the last days God will will pour out his Spirit on all flesh, "and your sons and your daughters will prophesy." Second, Paul names a number of women whom he regards as co-laborers in the work of the kingdom: e.g., Phoebe, a diakonos (same word used for deacons in 1 Timothy 3, used even in the masculine form in Greek though referring to a woman; this would seem to indicate an office, not the generic "servant" as in KJV, NIV, NASB, ESV); Junia (Romans 16:7, outstanding among the apostles, though some translations follow another textual variant and translate as the masculine Junias); Priscilla, wife of Aquila (various passages in Acts and Paul's letters; in Acts, in the more reliable Greek manuscripts, a shift is made in the story in which Priscilla is usually referred to before Aquila, indicating that she is the more prominent of the two in their ministry); and Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2-3), to name a few. Furthermore, in 1 Timothy 3, when Paul gives the qualifications for deacons, v. 11 is traditionally translated "Their wives . . ."; but the Greek is literally, "Women, likewise . . ." Gune can be translated as woman or wife, according to the context; given the overall structure of 3:1-13, the thought flows better and makes more sense to translate it "Women, likewise," implying women serving as deacons. The two main passages used against women ministers/deacons are 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 and 1 Timothy 2:8-15. Good arguments can be made that in 1 Corinthians 14, as he has in other places in the letter, Paul is quoting a Corinthian assertion in order to refute it or qualify it. Likewise, good arguments can be made that in 1 Timothy 2, Paul is dealing with a situation where some of the women in the church are falling prey to error or heresy, so he is prohibiting them from teaching at all or exercising authority over men, to guard against the spread of heresy. In Acts, with Priscilla, who is an orthodox teacher, there is no problem. I'm attaching the notes from a sermon I did on 1 Timothy 2 a couple of years ago. The position to which I've come is this: While the regular pattern throughout history seems to be men in leadership, in his sovereignty, God has the right to call whomever he wishes and place them in leadership! I will not presume to instruct him on this or any other issue!


What do you think?
 
www.cbmw.org is the website of "The Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" and it has excellent responses to the points brought up.

[Edited on 10-21-2003 by SolaScriptura]
 
Are you saying that it is wrong for women to teach/preach... or are you saying that we're wrong for saying it is wrong? ;-)
 
The issue is not one of women elders...it is a matter of whether or not the PCUSA can be considered an orthodox Christian church in any sense of the word!!!

Phillip :flaming:
 
My Aunt is a Pastor! and so was my old youth pastor!

And I think that it is horrible. I did not take the time to read through everyone's comments, however I came from a Nazarene (Weslyan) church. This church is supposedly focused on "holiness" and women pastors have arisen out of ignorance for the Word. I grew up believing that it was o.k. because Paul is speaking to the society of that time. Women were supposedly ALL uneducated, prostitues and because of this should not speak up in church or teach. Churches like this forget that God ordained man as head of the household and this flows over into all areas of life. Man has been given authority over the wife and children of his household, if this cannot be compromised then how much more uncompromisability should there be in the church. If you view the lives of my aunt's children you can see clearly the effects of my aunt's neglection to fulfill her real responsiblity. She and most of my family says that, without a doubt, she was called because she used to believe that it was not a woman's place, but God convinced her otherwise. I think that this is heretical against clear scripture.

Knight :biggrin:
 
[quote:8ebb270c06][i:8ebb270c06]Originally posted by SolaScriptura[/i:8ebb270c06]
Are you saying that it is wrong for women to teach/preach... or are you saying that we're wrong for saying it is wrong? ;-) [/quote:8ebb270c06]

________________________

Reply... It is wrong for women to be pastors and preach.

I wish I had $1.00 for every discussion I have participated in regarding this (and similar) topics. More often than not it usually leads to contention, so that is why I only previously posted the word "wrong".:rolleyes:
 
The examples your uncle gives won't hold up to biblical scrutiny. First of all, there can be woman deacons, if the deacon position is truly biblical. Too many churches use there deacons as elders, confusing the situation. Deacons are simply servants of the church. They wash tables, etc. Elders are spiritual leaders within the church. There is no reference to Elders being female. Many, if not most baptist churches have messed this whole thing up. It leads to great cofusion. Being Baptist, I think I've only been a member of one church that truly knew what the biblical position of deacon was.

The OT examples he's given seem to show a point in history when the men were not fufilling their roll. The main reason that women rise to positoins of authority within a church is that the men aren't fulfilling their God given responsibilities. If men rise to and embrace what God has called them to then there wouldn't be an issue. How's a woman to follow a man who won't tuly follow God? She can't, she tries to fulfill the roll herself.

Men need to take their pants back (so to speak) and lead their families, their churches and if God sees fit, their commuities.

Not that I have an opinion about this or anything:cool:.
 
Woman Ministers

Totally unscriptural!
The Bible teaches that woman may teach at home, but not in the pulpit.

One question:

If you are Reformed, what are you doing in the Presbyterian USA?:puzzled:

Please do not take offense at my question. I really do not mean to offend.
 
Should we just throw the baby out with the bathwater? There are problems with every church. I just feel a burden for the PCUSA. I don't think GOD would want me to abandon the PCUSA when problems arise. Just because the HQ has strayed doesn't mean that the rank and file members have. If some form of heresy started in the PCA would GOD want everyone to leave that church and start another one? I must tell you that I am a new convert to Reformed Theology so I am still learning so please be understanding(came from a Southern Baptist Church.):wr50:
 
Once again I am sorry if I caused offense.
I know what it is like being in a church that is not Reformed. I am, in fact, in the Southern Baptist Chruch at present, desperately seeking and praying for Reformation, and I have seen some progress which can only be the divine work of our Lord in the SBC.

I suppose I have had some bad experiences with the P USA. I have only been to a few USA churches in my area. It wasn't just that they were not Reformed, they weren't even conservative, out-right liberal in fact. The services where full of Popish traditions: candles, colors, priestly vestments, etc. The only time the Bible was mentioned was during the Scripture readings; the sermons were on famous quotes or nifty sayings. The hymns were mainly strange poems about nature and the universe.

Perhaps not all Presbyterian. USA churches are in this bad of shape.

Whatever the case, I admire you for striving for Reformation in your church and hope what I have said has not been misjudged.

For you would probably like to know what a 'Reformed' Christian is doing in the SBC, but as I said I have seen the beginings of Reformation in many of our churches.

My prayers and brotherly love go out to you and the P USA.

[Edited on 10-26-2003 by puriteen18]
 
No offense taken. Looks like we have a lot in common churchwise.
[quote:20cadab4a2]
TextThe services where full of Popish traditions: candles, colors, priestly vestments, etc.
[/quote:20cadab4a2] We do these "Popish" things but I don't think there is anything wrong with that.
 
One thing you will have to wrestle with is whether there is true fellowship there. If the leadership of the church could be so blind to this issue, what else are they ignoring in the word?

Reformed theology doesn't give them a pass at bad theology.

Are you and your wife the only ones who were shocked? If so, you probably aren't among those of like faith.
 
I came from a Southern Baptist upbringing too and pastored several SBC churches before we left the SBC and planted a Reformed Baptist church.

My concern with the PCUSA is founded upon the official stance of the denomination. There are more than just a few heresies running rampant in the PCUSA, and most of them are not new but have been the stance of the church for decades. They expose a major problem with their view of Scripture!

Here are a few official statements made by the PCUSA available on their website: (emphasis added)

[b:3923540ac7]Abortion[/b:3923540ac7]
There is [both] agreement and disagreement on the basic issue of abortion. The committee [on problem pregnancies and abortion] [b:3923540ac7]agreed that there are no biblical texts that speak expressly to the topic of abortion[/b:3923540ac7], but that taken in their totality the Holy Scriptures are filled with messages that advocate respect for the woman and child before and after birth. [b:3923540ac7]Therefore the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) encourages an atmosphere of open debate and mutual respect for a variety of opinions concerning the issues related to problem pregnancies and abortion[/b:3923540ac7].

Problem pregnancies are the result of, and influenced by, so many complicated and insolvable circumstances that we have neither the wisdom nor the authority to address or decide each situation.

[b:3923540ac7]The considered decision of a woman to terminate a pregnancy can be a morally acceptable[/b:3923540ac7], though certainly not the only or required, decision. [b:3923540ac7]Possible justifying circumstances would include medical indications of severe physical or mental deformity, conception as a result of rape or incest, or conditions under which the physical or mental health of either woman or child would be gravely threatened. [/b:3923540ac7]

No law or administrative decision should :

(1) limit access to abortions;

(2) limit information and counseling concerning abortions; or

(3) limit or prohibit public funding [b:3923540ac7]for necessary abortions[/b:3923540ac7] for the socially and economically disadvantaged.

[b:3923540ac7]Homosexuality[/b:3923540ac7]
On the basis of our understanding that the practice of homosexuality is sin, we are concerned that [b:3923540ac7]homosexual believers[/b:3923540ac7] and the observing world should not be left in doubt about the church's mind on this issue during any further period of study. Even some who see some forms of homosexual behavior as moral are concerned that persons inside and outside the church will stumble in their faith and understanding if this matter is unresolved."

"Homosexuality presents a particular problem for the church. It [b:3923540ac7]seems to be[/b:3923540ac7] contrary to the teaching of scripture. It seems to repudiate the heterosexual process which gave us life. Further, many believe that such an orientation can be changed simply by personal decision or by the creation of healthy environments for the young. The church though should be aware of the partial nature of our knowledge of homosexuality. [b:3923540ac7]For instance, whether or not sexual orientation is something unchosen and unchangeable for most people is a matter of crucial significance which continues to be unsettled among scientists or ethicists. The church should be sensitive to the difficulty of rejecting a persons's sexual orientation without rejecting the person.[/b:3923540ac7] It should be open to more light on what goes into shaping one's sexual preferences and [b:3923540ac7]reexamine its life and teaching in relation to people who are seeking affirmation and needing acceptance and who are apparently not free to change their orientations[/b:3923540ac7]."

Persons who manifest homosexual behavior must be treated with the profound respect and pastoral tenderness due all people of God. There can be no place within the Christian faith for the response to homosexual persons of mingled contempt, hatred, and fear that is called homophobia.

[b:3923540ac7]Homosexual persons are encompassed by the searching love of Christ.[/b:3923540ac7] The church must turn from its fear and hatred to move toward the homosexual community in love and to [b:3923540ac7]welcome homosexual inquirers to its congregations[/b:3923540ac7]. It should free them to be candid about their identity and convictions, and it should also share honestly and humbly with them in seeking the vision of God's intention for the sexual dimensions of their lives. . . .

In 1993, the General Assembly adopted the recommendation of its Advisory Committee on the Constitution which stated that: ". . . current constitutional law in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) is that self-affirming, practicing homosexual persons may not be ordained as ministers of the Word and Sacrament, elders, or deacons." In 1997, the approval by a majority of presbyteries of an amendment to the Book of Order known as "Amendment B" (now section G-6.0106b) makes constitutional the following language: Those who are called to office in the church are to lead a life in obedience to Scripture and in conformity to the historic confessional standards of the church. Among these standards is the requirement to live [b:3923540ac7]either in fidelity within the covenant of marriage between a man and a woman (W-4.9001), or chastity in singleness[/b:3923540ac7]. Persons refusing to repent of any self-acknowledged practice which the confessions call sin shall not be ordained and/or installed as deacons, elders, or ministers of the Word and Sacrament.

[b:3923540ac7]The Death Penalty[/b:3923540ac7]
"believing that capital punishment [b:3923540ac7]cannot be condoned by an interpretation of the Bible based upon the revelation of God's love in Jesus Christ[/b:3923540ac7]," called on Christians to "seek the redemption of evil doers and not their death," and noted that "the use of the death penalty tends to brutalize the society that condones it."

"Capital punishment is an expression of vengeance which [b:3923540ac7]contradicts the justice of God on the cross[/b:3923540ac7]."


Add to these the fact that they have openly ordained women as elders since the 1960s and have and are debating the ordination of homosexuals. In fact, a PCUSA church can have ordained homosexual leaders as long as those leaders are "chaste" and do not practice homosexual sex!!

One begins to wonder why they say that they have a [i:3923540ac7]Biblical stance[/i:3923540ac7] at all.

I would encourage anyone in a PCUSA church to seek fellowship at an OPC or PCA church.

Yes there is no perfect church, but when a denomination begins to throw off the standards of the Word of God in these crucial areas (and maintains that stance and widens it over the decades), it is time to look elsewhere for church membership.

My :wr50:


Phillip

[Edited on 10-29-2003 by pastorway]
 
Pastor Way:

This is quite shocking. I knew the PCUSA was liberal, but not to this extent.

Ex-Baptist
I do not see that you have any choice, but to leave your PCUSA church and find a new church-home.

"Should we just throw out the baby with the bathwater?"

The PCUSA threw out the "baby" long ago and has been steeping in the putrid bathwater.

"Just because the HQ has strayed doesn't mean that the rank and file members have."

In my opinion, if the rank and file members tolerate this level of heresy, then they too have strayed.

"I just feel a burden for the PCA. I don't think GOD would want me to abandon the PCUSA when problems arise."

Don't let misguided emotion lead you onto the slippery slope of liberalism. It is the PCUSA that abandoned God. Do you really feel you have the ability to reform the PCUSA?!?

A believer has no place in a heretical church. It is an insult to God.

[Edited on 10-30-2003 by MMasztal]
 
[quote:5f679cac1e][i:5f679cac1e]Originally posted by MMasztal[/i:5f679cac1e]
"Should we just throw out the baby with the bathwater?"

The PCUSA threw out the "baby" long ago and has been steeping in the bathwater.
[/quote:5f679cac1e]

I would say that there bath water is looking a little yellow to me. They've been doing more than just "steeping" in it :wink1:
 
Thank you everyone for your opinions. Can anyone tell me about Euodia and Sytache in I believe Ephesians? Was the woman in leadership in the church?
 
No, she was not in leadership in the church. If she was then the Bible contradicts itself and cannot be trusted.

[b:d466c07ceb]Philippians 4[/b:d466c07ceb]
2 I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.

They did the work of the gospel, they did not lead the church, although some commentators believe that they were causing disunity by influencing factions within the body, hence Paul told them to be "of the same mind", to be unified and quit fighting.

Simply put, though, they could not have been leaders in the church, or else Paul would have rebuked them for improper church practice. It was Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, who also wrote:

[b:d466c07ceb]1 Timothy 2[/b:d466c07ceb]
12And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

And it was Paul who gave us the requirements for elders:

[b:d466c07ceb]1 Timothy 3[/b:d466c07ceb]
1If a [u:d466c07ceb]man[/u:d466c07ceb] desires the position of a bishop......2A bishop then must be blameless, the [u:d466c07ceb]husband[/u:d466c07ceb] of one wife.....


Phillip
 
[quote:8f34e6c58e]
2 I implore Euodia and I implore Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. 3And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.
[/quote:8f34e6c58e] Pastor Way, what is the greek word for "labored" in this text and what is its meaning?
 
It is the word sunathleo, and means literally to compete (contest, wrestle) with (beside) someone in a battle.

Paul is saying that they worked hard with him in contesting for the faith. They were fellow laborers in the work of the Kingdom, as are all Christians.

This does not denote an office or position, but an activity of fellowship in the work of the gospel.

Phillip
 
As the egalitarian movement gains steam in evangelical circles, it is imperative that we know where we stand, why we stand there and then know how to respond lovingly to those people who have been deceived by our culture.
For that reason, I really do recommend "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" edited by Piper and Grudem. You can read it online at www.cbmw.org There they also have a link that addresses "50 Crucial Questions" and I think you will find the book and the site to be quite impressive for both its comprehensiveness and its depth. Plus, the articles are written in a very irenic and pastoral manner. I give it :thumbup::thumbup:

[Edited on 10-31-2003 by SolaScriptura]
 
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