Did they not have to go to war to keep what they did? Did they not persecute those who wouldn't go along with it? How much more would that stuff happen today in our culture, that isn't a monarchy? So it would have to be worse to achieve it, that's my point.
No, we shouldn’t think it will be any different in our age. The reformers nor the church wanted war. They did not declare war. War came through governments of men fighting for worldly power. Yes, establishment of the true religion is right and good. War is inevitable in our age regardless, it is going to come where it will come.
Is it the Sabbath there still? Sorry! I've just had Monday lunch.We can't even get Tom to observe the Sabbath by not posting movies on the Sabbath much less have unbelievers observe the Sabbath.Tom, I have a big gun and I'm ready for a reformed war. Actually, I hate guns and war so carry on.
Is all war wrong? You appear to be making sweeping statements.
I understand, I'm sorry if I seems I doubt the necessary things the reformers had to do to make that noble and good thing that reformers did. It was necessary. My only point is how much worse will it be today? Really all I want is a practical game plan for how it will happen? I don't seem to be getting that so in fairness I'll drop it. But we should all think about these things when we want massive changes to our country no matter how noble it is. It's not that I'm not satisfied it's just that I wish a practical plan of some kind would be given for discussion. It would be nice to discuss the ins and outs of a plan of some kind. Also I've never doubted anyone's good intentions, I've seen no bad ones.
No not all war is bad. If it's a good war why? Is it worth it? The war the reformers fought both physically and spiritually were good and necessary. I would define persecution in this context as the inevitable coeortion that would take place trying to take our country from where it is to an established religion, it would have to be physical and probably lethal.
Where and when was this movie playing before?
You need to be more precise. What conflicts and persecutions do you have in mind?
Ok, the persecutions in Germany, I believe Luther wrote a book about it. in England and other European countries. I believe it's well documented. Zwingli died in battle. How many Europea countries persecuted people who didn't hold to a particular confession? Salem witch trials? This is all history.
Ok, I see more where you’re coming from now. I think maybe one problem is in not seeing a distinction: you’re assuming there are some who “want massive changes to our country” and who (you think, at least?) are wanting to get to work to implement those changes; but all I’ve seen on the thread(s) are those who hold doctrinally to the establishment principle as good and believe the magistrate has a duty to uphold the first table. Has anyone on these threads said they want to, or believe there’s a way to, bring about massive changes toward a church establishment or the magistrate upholding the first table? I haven’t seen that from anyone, unless I missed it.
I have hope that the church will remember and learn from any past mistakes. It’s providential and great that we have all this history preserved for us. It’s the main reason I’m trying to collect books for our church.
Specific examples, please, not general mentions.
History is what people say it is. Different people say different things.
<<<<<<chuckle>>>>>>
But no happy ending. Sorry for the rabbit trail folks.
Not sure what you mean here? Specific examples of what? Considering I didn't live than Specific is pretty relative.
Ok, who would decide this new "constitution"? Would Lutheran's be invited, Baptists? Which section of the "Reformed" world would be illegal?
Well prayer is practical.
Fair enough.
Learn what? Without a practical blueprint, we won't.
I don't know beating aliens is always a happy ending.
All I am asking is what particular historic events you are referring to. Without specifics, we are grasping at vapours. We cannot make conclusions about history if we have not in the first place nailed down the history we are supposed to be discussing. You have written about the badness of all the bloodshed and war, of some unspecified time period not being a "golden age". You have made brief mention of a so-far unnamed German persecution, which Luther may or may not have written about, and of uncertain events taking place in England and other parts of Europe.
I’ve seen some good thinking on this somewhere- maybe older PB posts? It would make sense that a unified visible church in a nation would have a strong unifying confession. Again, the hope is that the church learns from history and avoids any sinful persecution. There are alternatives possible to the sort of black and white way you’re (I think) thinking about it.
Practical blueprints have many times been hammered out by the church in times of need . Most recently, what happened at Westminster was a practical blueprint for going forward. They had the wisdom for that blueprint because of their understanding of church history and what had happened with Rome.
Along similar lines, the hope would not only be for a 'strong unifying confession', but also a strong and truly unified Church. As one who is a credobaptist, but in full agreement with the original standards position on the state, our congregation regularly prays that the Lord might bring the Church into unity again ('one Lord, one faith, one baptism') - and not by compromise, but true conviction from the Spirit.
