For those who watched the Superbowl...

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Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Just so I understand what you're saying, if its not grace that changed the heart, then what did?
Changed the heart to what Bob? Changed the heart to not watch the usperbowl? I am trying to pinpoint what grace leads to in this issue. Are you saying the less and less we do, the person who goes to assemble in th am, reads scripture for 5 hours, goes the evening service, comes home and has a study, doesnt do dishes, walks to church, unplugs everything electric has received more grace to do this?
Mod on.

Steady, everyone. We've been down this road before.

First, remember that everyone here agreed to one of the historic confessions. Part of those confessions is an acknowledgment that reverence for the Sabbath is important and is scriptural. Also, consisitent with the confessions and with Scripture is the idea that following rules merely to impress another is not a marker of faith. Let's be careful going into territory that attempts to measure grace with compliance with rules.

Raising this issue of who is holier than another because of particular practices on the Sabbath is framing the issue the wrong way and often leads to pointless namecalling. Let's keep the focus on what it means to keep the Sabbath and why, according to Scripture and our understanding of it, and leave shut the door about the state of someone's soul regarding their understanding of the Sabbath and their practice.

Mod off.

One could call me a pretty strict Sabbatarian. Certainly outwardly it might come across as that because I tend to avoid all sorts of entertainment, radio, most internet sites, I don't even like to talk politics on the Lord's Day. (I don't have a TV so watching the Superbowl is a non-issue anyway.) It is for me something that has become as natural as drinking cool water on a hot day. But I know a lot of brothers and sisters who don't see things this way, it's not my place to say I'm more holy, because I know I certainly am not.

But the personal practice has made me more aware of God's grace to me. The point I'm trying to get across is that your practice is not an indicator of grace at all, but it may be a help to realize the grace you've already been given.

I agree, AG, that looking for barometers of grace is not productive. We all deserve death and by grace we are promised life. It's not a matter of a little dose or a lot, as far as I can see.


If I did the above I apologize Vic, it was not my intention. I agree revernece and honor are biblical.

As an aside, ill try to keep the fight clean by no rabbit punches or hitting below the belt and break on your command..:)
 

Barnpreacher

Puritan Board Junior
On a lighter note, for those who did watch the game got to see one of the most incredible plays ever pulled off when Eli Manning managed to avoid a sack and throw an incredible pass to David Tyree, who made an even more incredible catch.

Perhaps Belicheat's camera men got a good enough angle on that play to where it will never happen again in the future.
 
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blhowes

Puritan Board Professor
Please do not think that I beilieve one can honor God by destroying the sabbath and making a mockery out of it under the guise of Liberty.
That thought never crossed my mind.

My point is the jew did exactly this Bob. This is what I have a hard time swallowing in light of Christ. All these things could be and obviously have been done from the flesh. Which does not make one more sanctified.
Did I say it makes somebody more sanctified? If I did, I didn't mean to.

I enjoy watching the Super Bowl (moreso when the Pats win). For me to not watch it because God would have me do other things, and to not be thinking about it and wondering what the score is, etc., would take more than my will power could muster.

Just read the Gospel accounts of Christ vs the leaders. This is exactly what my above post questions. The elevation of the sabbath day was wrongly applied by the jew.

One does not need the mishna in order to fulfill the command to assemble, revere, and honor. So I vehemently deny that for 24 hours, to do less and less, under some form of ritualistic piety is a fruit of grace.
I think that's a good point. We definitely don't want to make the same mistakes the jews did. We don't want to add to God's law, nor take anything away from it either.

I just find it odd that Christ was attacked vehemently for doing 'stuff' of this day that irritated the pharisee. Again, He did it for a reason. These sick and lame could have been healed the next day.
True, but I have no reason to think that he didn't heal the sick and the lame throughout the week, as well as on the Sabbath.
 

blhowes

Puritan Board Professor
On a lighter note, for those who did watch the game got to see one of the most incredible plays ever pulled off when Eli Manning managed to avoid a sack and throw an incredible pass to David Tyree, who made an even more incredible catch.
That was pretty incredible. I'd love to see a closeup, slow motion view, of how he avoided the sack, then went on to complete the play.
 

larryjf

Puritan Board Senior
Some posts have spoken of the error of the Jews in their Sabbath observance, and i would like to speak to that.

The Jews problem was not that they strove to keep the moral law, their problem was that they did it to gain God's favor. That motivation makes God a debtor to us. The point of following the moral law is not to earn God's favor, but rather to show God our love (Jn 14:15).
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
True, but I have no reason to think that he didn't heal the sick and the lame throughout the week, as well as on the Sabbath.
But for some reason that just recently been revealed to me, He did these things on the sabbath day and casued the pharisees to want to kill him and catch Him in breaking the Mosaic code. This vein never crossed my mind before yesterday. Everything He did had a deep purpose. And the only thing I could come up with for Him to heal/work on the sabbath was to point out their error in understanding of the day. And I am positive it was not to prove this 'acts of mercy' cloak.

Luke 14:1-6

1 ¶ And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him.

2 And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy.

3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?

4 And they held their peace. And he took [him], and healed him, and let him go;

5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?

6 And they could not answer him again to these things.




John 7:19-24

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?

20 The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee?

21 Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel.

22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.

23 If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.



Matthew 12:1-8.

1 ¶ At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.

2 But when the Pharisees saw [it], they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is [one] greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what [this] meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.



John 5:15-17.

15 The man departed, and told the Jews that it was Jesus, which had made him whole.

16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.

17 ¶ But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Some posts have spoken of the error of the Jews in their Sabbath observance, and i would like to speak to that.

The Jews problem was not that they strove to keep the moral law, their problem was that they did it to gain God's favor. That motivation makes God a debtor to us. The point of following the moral law is not to earn God's favor, but rather to show God our love (Jn 14:15).
I disagree Larry. They most certainly did strive, becasue of the blessings and curses. Law Observance does not always equal works righteousness. When I argue against Law observance, I am not always accusing the person of works salvation or being a pharisee, just accusing them of being wrong..:)

Besides, the Jew errored in most if not all revelation. Sabbath regualtions is just one of many..
 

larryjf

Puritan Board Senior
Some posts have spoken of the error of the Jews in their Sabbath observance, and i would like to speak to that.

The Jews problem was not that they strove to keep the moral law, their problem was that they did it to gain God's favor. That motivation makes God a debtor to us. The point of following the moral law is not to earn God's favor, but rather to show God our love (Jn 14:15).
I disagree Larry. They most certainly did strive, becasue of the blessings and curses. Law Observance does not always equal works righteousness. When I argue against Law observance, I am not always accusing the person of works salvation or being a pharisee, just accusing them of being wrong..:)

Besides, the Jew errored in most if not all revelation. Sabbath regualtions is just one of many..
Actually, what i said was that their striving to keep the moral law was not their problem...their motivation in keeping it was their problem.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Some posts have spoken of the error of the Jews in their Sabbath observance, and i would like to speak to that.

The Jews problem was not that they strove to keep the moral law, their problem was that they did it to gain God's favor. That motivation makes God a debtor to us. The point of following the moral law is not to earn God's favor, but rather to show God our love (Jn 14:15).
I disagree Larry. They most certainly did strive, becasue of the blessings and curses. Law Observance does not always equal works righteousness. When I argue against Law observance, I am not always accusing the person of works salvation or being a pharisee, just accusing them of being wrong..:)

Besides, the Jew errored in most if not all revelation. Sabbath regualtions is just one of many..
Actually, what i said was that their striving to keep the moral law was not their problem...their motivation in keeping it was their problem.


I find many today who will confess they strive out of gratitude, still do it to earn God's favor in their heart. I should have been more clear Larry. Therefore we, myself included, are not different from the jew in this aspect. The problem is they strove on their own without Christ mediating, just as we do constantly. I just cant figure out why God would leave it up to me to increase my sanctification on my own. Yet many times I told to do it...
 

larryjf

Puritan Board Senior
I find many today who will confess they strive out of gratitude, still do it to earn God's favor in their heart. I should have been more clear Larry. Therefore we, myself included, are not different from the jew in this aspect. The problem is they strove on their own without Christ mediating, just as we do constantly. I just cant figure out why God would leave it up to me to increase my sanctification on my own. Yet many times I told to do it...
I don't agree that the Jews who rejected Christ kept the Law out of gratitude for their salvation...they kept it to keep their salvation. Frankly, i don't know how they could have done it from gratitude since they did not receive salvation in Christ to be grateful for to begin with.

If we do good works to make God a debtor to us...to earn His love...then we should reform our thinking. God loves us because of who we are found in, Jesus Christ, not because of what we do. We show our love to God by what we do, we don't earn His love toward us...Christ did that.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
I find many today who will confess they strive out of gratitude, still do it to earn God's favor in their heart. I should have been more clear Larry. Therefore we, myself included, are not different from the jew in this aspect. The problem is they strove on their own without Christ mediating, just as we do constantly. I just cant figure out why God would leave it up to me to increase my sanctification on my own. Yet many times I told to do it...
I don't agree that the Jews who rejected Christ kept the Law out of gratitude for their salvation...they kept it to keep their salvation. Frankly, i don't know how they could have done it from gratitude since they did not receive salvation in Christ to be grateful for to begin with.

If we do good works to make God a debtor to us...to earn His love...then we should reform our thinking. God loves us because of who we are found in, Jesus Christ, not because of what we do. We show our love to God by what we do, we don't earn His love toward us...Christ did that.


Talking past each other I hope Larry.

The Jew strove to keep Law to earn God's favor ie blessing/curses. This was clearly revealed to them. So I really do not blame them for it. I admit I still do the same without the Power of Christ and what He did for His sheep. THis is a wrong approach to sanctification. When I become 'the little engine that could', I fail miserably. And I know of many who from their lips speak of striving out of gratitude, but in their heart, in their closet, they do it to earn God's favor..:2cents::2cents:
 

larryjf

Puritan Board Senior
Talking past each other I hope Larry.

The Jew strove to keep Law to earn God's favor ie blessing/curses. This was clearly revealed to them. So I really do not blame them for it. I admit I still do the same without the Power of Christ and what He did for His sheep. THis is a wrong approach to sanctification. When I become 'the little engine that could', I fail miserably. And I know of many who from their lips speak of striving out of gratitude, but in their heart, in their closet, they do it to earn God's favor..:2cents::2cents:
We may be talking past each other...one of the drawbacks of online discussions as opposed to face-to-face.

What are you saying that God clearly revealed to them? Certainly not that salvation was gained through works, right? Through the sacrificial system it was shown to the Jews that they could not earn their salvation by their works because they needed a sacrifice for their sins.
 

Amazing Grace

Puritan Board Junior
Talking past each other I hope Larry.

The Jew strove to keep Law to earn God's favor ie blessing/curses. This was clearly revealed to them. So I really do not blame them for it. I admit I still do the same without the Power of Christ and what He did for His sheep. THis is a wrong approach to sanctification. When I become 'the little engine that could', I fail miserably. And I know of many who from their lips speak of striving out of gratitude, but in their heart, in their closet, they do it to earn God's favor..:2cents::2cents:
We may be talking past each other...one of the drawbacks of online discussions as opposed to face-to-face.

What are you saying that God clearly revealed to them? Certainly not that salvation was gained through works, right? Through the sacrificial system it was shown to the Jews that they could not earn their salvation by their works because they needed a sacrifice for their sins.


That blessings/curses were attached to Law. That is all I am saying. I have no clue what a jew thinks about salvation. This is never spoken of in scripture from their viewpoint. They are only concerned with the temporal aspect of relating to God. Law blinded them so much, they did not even recognize the fulfillment of all prophecy reagrding Messiah Christ.

Anyway, perhaps were are off topic. My original intent remains as before:

He repeatedly challenged the Pharisees on the points they would consider most holy, to find out if they could somehow elevate their minds beyond their own traditions. ANd they could not. They became more hardened, save nicodemus. the Lord Jesus found a people who had thoroughly created their own traditions with the word of God. They zealously strove to protect both themselves and the Torah with their "fences," but those fences obstructed their view of the Messiah. They couldn’t see the signs of God’s son when he preached and healed in their very presence. So blind were they because of tradition, they couldn’t see a man walking who had never walked before, they only saw a man carrying a mat on the Sabbath, forbidden by their traditions.

The Jewish leaders self sanctification meant nothing in God’s eyes and still is repulsive towards Him.. The Sabbath had/has a greater meaning than doing it as a command or sanctification on our own. So the Lord Jesus went right to their perceived stronghold, they themselves burdened the people with picayune rules and nonsense.


Hence I watched the Superbowl with a clean heart. not needing repentance for watching it
 
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