Four systems compared Questions.....

[BlackCalvinist]

<warning>mild sarcasm in the form of a real question approaching</warning>

[quote:91ae48805e][i:91ae48805e]Originally posted by puritansailor[/i:91ae48805e]These statements aren't ungaurded at all. They are true. There are two ways to inherit eternal life. The Cov. of Works (or law) and the Cov. of Grace. [/quote:91ae48805e]


So Covenant theology teaches two ways of salvation ?

And where is this 'covenant of works' in scripture ?

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by OS_X]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Matt 19

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good[5] Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"
17So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good?[6] No one is good but One, that is, God.[7] [b:38c754fbd2]But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." [/b:38c754fbd2]
18He said to Him, "Which ones?"
Jesus said, ""You shall not murder,' "You shall not commit adultery,' "You shall not steal,' "You shall not bear false witness,' 19"Honor your father and your mother,'[8] and, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."'[9]
20The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth.[10] What do I still lack?"
21Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by puritansailor]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Kerry,
I think you have misunderstood Patrick. Under CT, there is only one way men are saved. However, the scripture reference for the C.o W. is :

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. i.e. Do this and live.

Read :
http://www.apuritansmind.com/Baptism/WitsiusDecalogueCovenant.htm

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by Scott Bushey]

 

[BlackCalvinist]

[quote:8fd647489f][i:8fd647489f]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:8fd647489f]
Suzanne,
There is a thing that occured in the OT which does not occur any longer; Theocratic anointings. This is not to say that in every example that you find in the OT where the scriptures say, "and the Spirit of God came upon/was with/filled, whomever" was necessarily a theocratic anointing in every event, as seen in the many passages I provided, the Spirit was assuredly amongst Gods people. But, in the cases where it was theocratic, and God was filling an individual, i.e. David, Ezekiel etc, these were anointings of a special kind. They were used to establish certain things in Israels history, in Gods economy, an economy that has essentially been completed.

This passage from Hebrews speaks volumes:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

We now have the scriptures; there is no need for God to speak audibly or annoint someone with any messages.

Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Implying that Gods Spirit indeed "strived" with men (even) in the OT.

[Edited on 4-22-2004 by Scott Bushey] [/quote:8fd647489f]


Scott, I think you're confusing two different categories of work by the Spirit here. The work of the Spirit in REGENERATION is different from the work of the Spirit in EMPOWERING for service (whether it be prophesying, proclamation of the Word, etc....). You are confusing the two categories. They are NOT synonymous.

I would agree that these fillings were of a special kind, but not so 'special' that they were [i:8fd647489f]extremely[/i:8fd647489f] rare occurences. We know that at the time of Jesus, two people (Simeon and Anna - Luke 2:25-38) were spoken of as having the Spirit of God come rest upon them for a specific purpose, just like in the OT when the Spirit rested upon Saul [b:8fd647489f]for a time[/b:8fd647489f] and then [i:8fd647489f]departed[/i:8fd647489f] (1 Sam. 16:14).

Suzanne, I officially peg myself as a little past progressive dispensational and close to covenant.

http://theologicallycorrect.com/doctrinal.shtml

This is why David would pray in (for example, Ps. 51) that God [i:8fd647489f]not[/i:8fd647489f] take His Spirit from him. The NT promise is that the Spirit would rest with all believers - forever.

 

[Scott Bushey]

Kerry,
Show me. Present the scriptures. What you pose is dispensational to the core.

 

[BlackCalvinist]

[quote:1b45b0f97c][i:1b45b0f97c]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:1b45b0f97c]
Kerry,
I think you have misunderstood Patrick. Under CT, there is only one way men are saved. However, the scripture reference for the C.o W. is :

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. i.e. Do this and live. [/quote:1b45b0f97c]


What is a 'covenant' ? That would be the first thing to establish before calling this any type of 'covenant' in the first place (whether CoW or Edenic).

And I don't think I misunderstood Patrick. His own follow-up post actually confirms the question I partially tongue-in-cheek asked earlier. I think this is one of those 'ungaurded statements' that Ryrie was talking about.

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by OS_X]

 

[BlackCalvinist]

[quote:fc51f566fb][i:fc51f566fb]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:fc51f566fb]
Kerry,
Show me. Present the scriptures. What you pose is dispensational to the core. [/quote:fc51f566fb]


Uhhhh.... look up. I cited the references.

As a side note, what things do you think are RIGHT in dispensationalism ?

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by OS_X]

 

[Scott Bushey]

Kerry,
Here is the passage:
"Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,
Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,
Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
Luk 2:35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem."

How do you see this as anything different from what occured after the cross?

How are the scriptures previously posed (and this one) any different from what is given to the NT saint?

You ask:
"As a side note, what things do you think are RIGHT in dispensationalism?"

I disagree with most dispensationalism. I do agree with the central Christian ideas.


You also mention 1 Sam 16:14......
The question remains, was Saul even saved. The passages in Romans ch 1 sure look like they could be qualified here in this case. Otherwise, you will hard pressed to find another supportive example.



[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Scott Bushey]

 

[Puritan Sailor]

[quote:c1d124b6de][i:c1d124b6de]Originally posted by OS_X[/i:c1d124b6de]
[quote:c1d124b6de][i:c1d124b6de]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:c1d124b6de]
Kerry,
I think you have misunderstood Patrick. Under CT, there is only one way men are saved. However, the scripture reference for the C.o W. is :

Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. i.e. Do this and live. [/quote:c1d124b6de]


What is a 'covenant' ? That would be the first thing to establish before calling this any type of 'covenant' in the first place (whether CoW or Edenic).

And I don't think I misunderstood Patrick. His own follow-up post actually confirms the question I partially tongue-in-cheek asked earlier. I think this is one of those 'ungaurded statements' that Ryrie was talking about.

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by OS_X] [/quote:c1d124b6de]
You did misread. There are two ways described in Scripture, but I said in my first post that this way was shut to us due to Adam's failure to keep the covenant of works. But the question the rich man asked was not "how do I receive eternal life" but "what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" Christ answered his question according to the standard the man was trying to obtain eternal life, through works. The rich man had to follow the law perfectly, which no man can do any longer. Adam and Christ were the only two who could do it, and Christ is the only one who did do it. We are saved by works, just not by our works. We are saved by the work of Christ. Christ showed him the absolute standard required to earn eternal life, 1) to show him that he couldn't do it at all, 2) to show him he must look to another to fulfill those perfect requirements for him.

 

[Dan....]

[quote:80a373ef28]
And I don't think I misunderstood Patrick. His own follow-up post actually confirms the question I partially tongue-in-cheek asked earlier. I think this is one of those 'ungaurded statements' that Ryrie was talking about.
[/quote:80a373ef28]

There is nothing "unguarded" about Patrick's statement nor in Berkhof's. This is truth, as says the scriptures: "[i:80a373ef28]if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/i:80a373ef28]" Not only is there no salvation apart from works, but those works must be absolutely flawless, for a violation of one of the commandments makes guilty of the whole law, as says the scriptures: "for whosever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[/i]"

It is because of this truth that I am so thankful for the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ! He has obeyed perfectly. His perfect obedience is accounted to the elect for righteousness. His people are saved by His works.

In the words of Augustus Toplady,
"The terrors of law and of God
with me can have nothing to do;
my Saviour's obedience and blood
hide all my transgressions from view."

[Edited on 4-24-2004 by Dan....]

 

[cupotea]

I am so struggling with Covenant theology. This is really making me think.

Thanks to you all.