Gaming

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MrMerlin777

Puritan Board Post-Graduate
Just a thought comming off of the lottery thread.

Is all gaming sin? (cards etc) If not, where is the line? If so why?
 
I see nothing in Scripture that forbids gambling per se. As long as gambling is viewed as entertainment along the lines of going to the movies, playing miniature golf, etc, I can't think of why it would be a sin. If it becomes an addiction or interferes with tithes & offerings, it becomes a problem.

In short, gambling in moderation for entertainment is acceptable.
 
Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.
 
Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.

Clear to whom?

What exactly is wasteful spending? If I spend money at a blackjack table to get 2 hours of entertainment instead of at a movie theater, am I wasting money instead of spending it "wisely" at the theater? Or is all expenditure on recreation frivolous?
 
Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.

Good point. There is a distinction between games of pure chance (slot machines) and games that combine skill and chance (poker, blackjack, etc.), but even so, I can see a good argument that in gambling, most people necessarily lose, and nothing useful is produced -- unless you count the entertainment value for all the players as something useful.

I'm not sure what I think about this, so I'm very interested to see how this thread unfolds. :)
 
Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.

The purpose of gambling isn't necessarily to "accrue monetary worth." I never expect to win $400 million on the rare occasion I purchase a lotto ticket, nor do I hope to become a millionaire after a few hands of blackjack - it's more for thinking about what I would do if I did win that provides the entertainment. But even if one were to make money on gambling, if they have a system or strategy, isn't that requisite work? Isn't counting cards a developed skill that takes time and energy? Haven't they earned their winnings?

Also, if spending $1 on a lotto ticket is wasteful, what about buying a pack of gum, a soft drink, or an ice cream cone? Are those things "wasteful" as well? If they are, then I would simply disagree that God expects us to be so rigid with our money. If they aren't, then I would ask what the difference is between those items and a lotto ticket or a hand at the tables?
 
I think any kind of gaming where you benefit from someone else's loss is wrong. So playing cards with plastic chips with no monetary value is just for fun, but playing the lottery where the entirety of your winnings comes from other people's losses is wrong. Especially in the case of the lottery, it is often the people who can least afford it that buy lottery tickets hoping to get rich. I could not in good conscience benefit from that.

But I play monopoly and other board games and cards without any qualms so long as they are not getting in the way of time I should be spending in the Word or studying theology. For me, in the past computer games have been a vice that took up 8-10 hours a day of my time, and that was wrong of me. I generally avoid computer games now because I have a tendency to use them irresponsibly, and lead myself into sin.
 
Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.

Clear to whom?

What exactly is wasteful spending? If I spend money at a blackjack table to get 2 hours of entertainment instead of at a movie theater, am I wasting money instead of spending it "wisely" at the theater? Or is all expenditure on recreation frivolous?

Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.
 
What about spending 25 cents on the video slot machine at the bar so you don't have to pay the two dollars for the beer?
:think:
 
like dave Ramsey said in his book, "the lottery is a rich man's tax". The rich don't waste their money on it, they do their math.
 
Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.

But who determines equal value for pay? One could even make the argument that the act of gambling itself is requisite work....

Do you think playing games of chance is "work"?

In other words do you think it is of equal value to be paid $10,000 for pulling a slot lever when others have to work 8 months or more to earn that amount?

Another argument against gambling is that it violates the 10th Commandment against Coveting.
 
Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.

But who determines equal value for pay? One could even make the argument that the act of gambling itself is requisite work....

Do you think playing games of chance is "work"?

In other words do you think it is of equal value to be paid $10,000 for pulling a slot lever when others have to work 8 months or more to earn that amount?

Another argument against gambling is that it violates the 10th Commandment against Coveting.

What do you think about investing in the stock market?

CT
 
But who determines equal value for pay? One could even make the argument that the act of gambling itself is requisite work....

Do you think playing games of chance is "work"?

In other words do you think it is of equal value to be paid $10,000 for pulling a slot lever when others have to work 8 months or more to earn that amount?

Another argument against gambling is that it violates the 10th Commandment against Coveting.

What do you think about investing in the stock market?

CT

There is a difference both in scope and in purpose to day trading and pulling slots and/or playing cards.
 
Do you think playing games of chance is "work"?

In other words do you think it is of equal value to be paid $10,000 for pulling a slot lever when others have to work 8 months or more to earn that amount?

Another argument against gambling is that it violates the 10th Commandment against Coveting.

What do you think about investing in the stock market?

CT

There is a difference both in scope and in purpose to day trading and pulling slots and/or playing cards.

Okay, so how is the scope and purpose different?

CT
 
Two things, first what is the purpose of gambling? The base purpose of gambling is to accrue monetary worth without the requisite value of work which is a clear violation of the 8th commandment. Secondly spending money on games of chance is wasteful spending. See J.G. Vos' commentary on Q. 142 for more.

Clear to whom?

What exactly is wasteful spending? If I spend money at a blackjack table to get 2 hours of entertainment instead of at a movie theater, am I wasting money instead of spending it "wisely" at the theater? Or is all expenditure on recreation frivolous?

Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.

Is the receipt of money (or something else of value) by gift from someone else also sinful? No value was given in consideration for the gift.
 
Clear to whom?

What exactly is wasteful spending? If I spend money at a blackjack table to get 2 hours of entertainment instead of at a movie theater, am I wasting money instead of spending it "wisely" at the theater? Or is all expenditure on recreation frivolous?

Surely you can see the difference between gambling and watching a movie. The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.

Is the receipt of money (or something else of value) by gift from someone else also sinful? No value was given in consideration for the gift.

Do the Scriptures speak against the giving of gifts?
 
What do you think about investing in the stock market?

CT

There is a difference both in scope and in purpose to day trading and pulling slots and/or playing cards.

Okay, so how is the scope and purpose different?

CT

(Before someone points it out yes I know there is a difference between day trading and other forms of stock transfers)

What is the "purpose" of Day Trading? Are the vocational habits of a Day Trader by nature unbiblical? How are Day Trading and gambling related?
 
day trading is for white collar folks and slot machines are for... well, everyone.
Angela, every time you play a game you are benefiting from someones loss... that's called winning.
Mr. Glaser, with all due respect, gambling isn't any more stealing than the movie theaters charging $4!!!!!!! for a SMALL coke.

You pay someone for an opportunity to develop and enjoy a skill and in so doing you may or may not gain some money.

I think that no one has really touched on the fact that it's a heart matter. ANYTHING can be a sin.... Anything that you place as more important than GOD, or you place higher than your relationship with God. That could be gambling, could be your wife. could be going to church.done with the wrong heart it's trash before God.

Also, one note, Mr. Backwoods, you said:
The Scriptures speak against in a number of places (WLC Q. 142 cites these particularly) the gathering of wealth by not giving equal value for the pay rendered.
so how do you not condemn the pro ballers who make millions for playing a ball game or actors for making a movie or the drug reps for... well you get my point. I'm sorry but my husband works usually 10 hours a day as a plumber, he's the best in the southeast, then he does side jobs, HARD, nasty, sometimes dangerous jobs to make less than $40 grand a year. THAT is not equal pay. Yet we raise our hands and bow our heads and praise GOD for what He has chosen to give us... and what He has blessed others with when they win money for a quarter, or a horse, or a good day trading stock, or a good day flipping a house. Because really, does it not all come from God? the good, the bad and unimaginable.
I think it's all a matter of the heart.
 
There is a difference both in scope and in purpose to day trading and pulling slots and/or playing cards.

Okay, so how is the scope and purpose different?

CT

(Before someone points it out yes I know there is a difference between day trading and other forms of stock transfers)

What is the "purpose" of Day Trading? Are the vocational habits of a Day Trader by nature unbiblical? How are Day Trading and gambling related?

1)Purpose: Make Money
2)Vocational Habits by nature Unbiblical: Seems to be the question at hand (What makes a vocational habit by nature unbiblical)
3)Relationship between day trading and gambling: Large amounts of chance and Uncertainty (I could probably add things but I am not sure what is relevant in this case).

Also as an aside, I did not specify day trading vs. other forms of stock market involvement.

CT
 
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/gambling-unbiblical-26401/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f54/powerball-340-million-play-not-play-9687/
http://www.puritanboard.com/f24/gambling-3408/

William Perkins, quoted by I.D.E. Thomas, A Puritan Golden Treasury:

Games may be divided into three sorts: games of wit or industry, games of hazard, and a mixture of both. Games of wit or industry are such as are ordered by the skill and industry of man. Of this sort are shooting in the longbow, shooting in the caliver, running, wrestling, fencing, music, and the games of chess and draughts...These, and all of this kind, wherein the industry of the mind and body hath the chiefest stroke, are very commendable, and not to be disliked. Games of hazard are those in which hazard only bears the sway and orders the game, and not wit: wherein also there is, as we say, chance, yea mere chance in regard of us. Now games that are of mere hazard, by the consent of godly divines are unlawful. The reasons are these: First, games of mere hazard are indeed lots, and the use of a lot is an act of religion, in which we refer unto the God determination of things of moment that can no other way be determined...Secondly, such games are not recreations, but rather matter of stirring up troublesome passions, as fear, sorrow...Thirdly, covetousness is commonly the ground of them all. Whereupon it is that men usually play for money. And for these causes such plays...are unlawful. The third kind of plays are mixed, which stand partly of hazard and partly of wit, and in which hazard begins the game and skill gets the victory, and that which is defective by reason of hazard is corrected by wit...Now the common opinion of learned divines is that, as they are not to be commended, so they are not simply to be condemned, and if they be used they must be used very sparingly.
 
Angela, every time you play a game you are benefiting from someones loss... that's called winning.

It is not the same thing. I do not truly benefit from playing a board game. The person who loses the game has given nothing to me. They have everything they had before they started the game and probably in the mean time had some fun. There is no cost to the loser. Ideally we all give God thanks for the fun we and he is glorified.

Compare this to buying a lottery ticket. I may win a million dollars, and part of that money I won may have come from a woman who chose to buy a lottery ticket instead of milk for her child or a man who can't make his house payment. I have benefited from the misery and poverty of others. I may thank God for the money, but the source is not good. Even if most of the money comes from people who play the lottery responsibly, they have still really lost something so that I may gain. They have less than they had when they started and I have more.
 
Is the receipt of money (or something else of value) by gift from someone else also sinful? No value was given in consideration for the gift.

Do the Scriptures speak against the giving of gifts?

That's exactly the point. Your reasoning is this:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Gaming is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, gaming is a violation of the 8th commandment.

But to be consistent, you would also have to say:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Receiving a monetary gift is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, receiving a monetary gift is a violation of the 8th commandment

I agree that the Bible does not forbid receiving gifts. But the Bible also does not forbid gambling in moderation. So Jon has a valid point - if you believe gambling is wrong because it is a violation of the 8th commandment, then by the same logic you would have to believe receiving monetary gifts is wrong as well...
 
Is the receipt of money (or something else of value) by gift from someone else also sinful? No value was given in consideration for the gift.

Do the Scriptures speak against the giving of gifts?

That's exactly the point. Your reasoning is this:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Gaming is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, gaming is a violation of the 8th commandment.

But to be consistent, you would also have to say:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Receiving a monetary gift is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, receiving a monetary gift is a violation of the 8th commandment

I agree that the Bible does not forbid receiving gifts. But the Bible also does not forbid gambling in moderation. So Jon has a valid point - if you believe gambling is wrong because it is a violation of the 8th commandment, then by the same logic you would have to believe receiving monetary gifts is wrong as well...

Can you show us where the Bible does not forbid gambling in moderation?

You have failed to show how in your table how giving of gifts is equatable to games of chance that deny God's providence and his charity not to mention that the games themselves are often performed in dens of wickedness (especially in the "Gambling towns"). While this itself is not an argument but must be an obvious consideration. Also when looking at things like the lottery it is worth noting that the proceeds of said "game" very rarely are used in a manner that gives Glory to God.
 
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Do the Scriptures speak against the giving of gifts?

That's exactly the point. Your reasoning is this:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Gaming is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, gaming is a violation of the 8th commandment.

But to be consistent, you would also have to say:

1. Accruing wealth without proportionate work is a violation of the 8th commandment
2. Receiving a monetary gift is accruing wealth without proportionate work
3. Therefore, receiving a monetary gift is a violation of the 8th commandment

I agree that the Bible does not forbid receiving gifts. But the Bible also does not forbid gambling in moderation. So Jon has a valid point - if you believe gambling is wrong because it is a violation of the 8th commandment, then by the same logic you would have to believe receiving monetary gifts is wrong as well...

Can you show us where the Bible does not forbid gambling in moderation?

You have failed to show how in your table how giving of gifts is equatable to games of chance that deny God's providence and his charity not to mention that the games themselves are often performed in dens of wickedness (especially in the "Gambling towns"). While this itself is not an argument but must be an obvious consideration. Also when looking at things like the lottery it is worth noting that the proceeds of said "game" very rarely are used in a manner that gives Glory to God.

I can't prove an absence of something. To do so I would say my proof is the entire canon, since there is no prohibition of gambling in it.

And if I won at gambling, I would say God's providence allowed me to win. To gamble is not to deny God's providence at all - His will be done, win or lose.
 
Scripture does say Gambling is a sin. Look at Proverbs 21:17 and 28:19 specifically.

Here is a snippet from a John MacArthur article on Gambling(Full article can be found here)
Why gambling is wrong:

* Not justified by the casting of lots. In biblical times lots functioned much like dice. They were made of sheep's knuckle bones, and the roll of those bones indicated a certain meaning. When the people had to make an important decision and had difficulty determining God's will, He sovereignly intervened and caused the lots to fall in such a way as to tell His followers what to do. At no time did anyone ever put something of value at risk.
* Denies the reality of God's sovereignty. Chance, the major promise of gambling's outworking, is the fabric of a human imagination that wants to deny the existence of a sovereign God. The Lord has established His throne in the heavens, and His sovereignty rules over all (Ps. 103:19).
* Builds on irresponsible stewardship. The worst possible stewardship is for someone to throw God's resources away at the altar of a god called chance or luck. It's idolatry of the worst sort. Nothing we have really belongs to us; it belongs to God, and we should use all of it to His glory (Matt. 6:19-20).
* Erodes the biblical work ethic. We are to earn our bread by the sweat of our brows (Gen. 3:19) not from games of chance. The addictive wagering process saps the good that a decent salary can afford.
* Driven by the sin of covetousness. Gambling - and its accompanying greediness - violates the 10th commandment (Ex. 20:17). It assumes that God has not given us what we ought to have and that there is somehow more wealth that will finally make us happy.
* Builds on the exploitation of others. It exploits people who can least afford to be victims and violates the eighth commandment, You shall not steal (Ex. 20:15). For everyone who wins something at gambling, there are millions of losers - people who have been duped by the seductive marketing appeal of gambling and prompted to throw away large sums of money.
 
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