Gay marriage celebrated at PC(USA) General Assembly Event

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Backwoods Presbyterian

Puritanboard Amanuensis
Gay marriage celebrated
at General Assembly event

By Parker T. Williamson
Editor Emeritus
The Layman
Sunday, June 22, 2008

June 22, 2008 SAN JOSE -- Grooms Craig Wiesner and Derrick Kikuchi joined hands, signed a California marriage license, received a standing ovation and were declared legally wed at a General Assembly dinner on June 21 hosted by More Light Presbyterians. The Rev. Diana Gibson, former minister of First Presbyterian Church in Palo Alto, Ca. officiated at the ceremony.


The couple had been called forward to receive the David Sindt Award in recognition of their services among gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. A spokesperson for More Light Presbyterians commended their activities on behalf of civil rights, economic justice, global issues, nonviolence, peace activism, educational pursuits and IT expertise. "They are a one-couple band!" she said.

In their acceptance remarks, Wiesner and Kikuchi affirmed that they were, in fact, a couple. "Our marriage was blessed on April 8, 1990 at First Presbyterian Church Palo Alto," declared Wiesner. Turning to Gibson, a Presbyterian minister in the audience who officiated at their 1990 ceremony, they asked, "Will you join us now to make this a civil marriage?"

"I will," she exclaimed as she approached the stage, a newly minted California marriage certificate in hand.

The couple then called out to Julie McDonald and Mitzi Henderson, who had witnessed their 1990 ceremony. "Will you be our witnesses tonight?" they asked.

"We will," responded McDonald and Henderson,as they joined the wedding party on stage.

After signing the license, Gibson said, "Eighteen years ago you were married in the eyes of God. Now by the authority newly granted by the state of California, I declare that you are married in the eyes of the state."

Same-gender marriage is not officially recognized by the Presbyterian Church (USA). Since a "definitive guidance" that was issued by the denomination's highest court in 2000, Presbyterian ministers have been constitutionally prohibited from performing marriages or marriage-like ceremonies. But the prohibition has been publicly violated and rarely enforced.

The Rev. Jane Spahr, who calls herself "a lesbian evangelist," conducted a marriage ceremony for two lesbians. A judicial complaint was filed, and a lower court found her guilty as charged, but on appeal the General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission overturned the conviction. The high court ruled in May that, although both the couple and Spahr called the ceremony a marriage, it could not have been a marriage since by denominational definition same-gender marriage does not exist.

Spahr claimed victory but also expressed dismay that the court refused to call the ceremony a marriage. On June 20, the eve of the denomination's General Assembly meeting, she officiated at another well publicized wedding, this time in Marin County and under the imprimatur of California civil law.

Gibson's 1990 ceremony would not have been a chargeable offense because it occurred prior to the denomination's definitive guidance ruling. But the ceremony she conducted at the General Assembly on June 21 could be construed an offense under church law.

Gibson is now a retired minister, but as such she remains under denominational jurisdiction and could be subject to church discipline. However, any charge against her would be adjudicated by San Jose presbytery, a governing body that has carried the flag for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender liberation movements. It is unlikely that a complaint against Gibson would even make it to trial in her presbytery, much less result in conviction.

The Kikuchi/Wiesner nuptials were staged before scores of General Assembly commissioners who will vote later this week on proposals to create a new, gender-free definition of marriage and to do away with the denomination's constitutional standards on sexual behavior.

Also receiving adulation at the More Light Presbyterian dinner was Palo Alto's First Presbyterian Church, recipient of the 2008 Inclusive Church Award. Accepting the award for his congregation, Pastor Robert Martin said, "Four years ago I could never have imagined standing before this body because of what happened to me and my family."

Martin was referring to a judicial complaint that was filed against him in the Presbytery of Western North Carolina alleging that he denied the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. If found guilty by the presbytery court, Martin could have lost his ordination credentials, and until the matter was adjudicated, his installation as Palo Alto's new pastor was delayed. Western North Carolina's investigating committee declined to bring formal charges against Martin, so the case was dismissed before it could make it to trial.

In accepting the More Light Presbyterians' Inclusive Church Award, Martin expressed thanks to Spahr for inspiring him and the Rev. Don Stroud, his seminary classmate and a practicing homosexual whose ordination was affirmed by Baltimore Presbytery in defiance of the denomination's constitutional ban on such practices. Baltimore has declared itself a gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender friendly presbytery that will not prosecute any complaint against persons who openly violate the denomination's sexual behavior standards.

Although the denomination's Biblical definition of marriage and its constitutional ordination standards will be hotly debated and could be changed by this General Assembly, many Presbyterians question what all the fuss is about since ordinations and same-gender marriages are already occurring and denominational officials refuse to enforce church law.

Link
 
We left the PCUSA in the 1990s after being members for 3 years, and it was over this issue. I attended a PCUSA worship conference where they brought a gay person up on the stage to participate in the worship. I walked out. We approached our elders over the issue, and it turned into a nasty trial where I was the accused. Needless to say, we left before they kicked us out.
 
We left the PCUSA in the 1990s after being members for 3 years, and it was over this issue. I attended a PCUSA worship conference where they brought a gay person up on the stage to participate in the worship. I walked out. We approached our elders over the issue, and it turned into a nasty trial where I was the accused. Needless to say, we left before they kicked us out.

:amen: and Hallelujah!!! that you left Sodom as I did this year.
 
watch the PCUSA congregation dwindle. God has a habit of gutting liberal churches and have them die a slow death.
 
If the PCA doesn't deal with the Irons family soon, don't be surprised if this sort of thing happens within that denomination. You say "surely you must be kidding." Well, do you think anyone in the PCA back in 1983 would have thought that an adult Sunday school class in the PCA would, in the next 25 years, be run like the one being run today in Burbank, CA? Don't be high minded, but fear.

Ron
 
The Rev. Jane Spahr, who calls herself "a lesbian evangelist," conducted a marriage ceremony for two lesbians. A judicial complaint was filed, and a lower court found her guilty as charged, but on appeal the General Assembly Permanent Judicial Commission overturned the conviction. The high court ruled in May that, although both the couple and Spahr called the ceremony a marriage, it could not have been a marriage since by denominational definition same-gender marriage does not exist...

By this reasoning, one cannot be excommunicated for worshipping false gods since by definition false gods don't actually exist!

Ron
 
watch the PCUSA congregation dwindle. God has a habit of gutting liberal churches and have them die a slow death.

The "dwindling" is starting to speed up. 100,000 lost in FY 2007.

The question is where are they going? Is God moving his people to better denominations, or are unconverted people simply moving away from the church. Or maybe it's just attrition through the passing on of senior saints. Who knows? In any case, implosion is good in cases such as this...

Ron
 
watch the PCUSA congregation dwindle. God has a habit of gutting liberal churches and have them die a slow death.

The "dwindling" is starting to speed up. 100,000 lost in FY 2007.

The question is where are they going? Is God moving his people to better denominations, or are unconverted people simply moving away from the church. Or maybe it's just attrition through the passing on of senior saints. Who knows? In any case, implosion is good in cases such as this...

Ron

Three things.

1) Old Saints moving on to Glory

2) Some is from churches going EPC

3) Most are people just leaving the Church all together.
 
Wcf
chapter Xxv
Of The Church


v. The Purest Churches Under Heaven Are Subject Both To Mixture And Error; And Some Have So Degenerated, As To Become No Churches Of Christ, But Synagogues Of Satan.

That is the question we must ask ourselves. To be, or not to be a Church anymore, doth the raven ask. For we have mixture and error. For now, I'll wait and see what my local church says and does. :detective:
 
My uncle left the PC-USA church he had been a member of for years, over this issue and women preachers..I'm not sure which church he is going to now, last I talked to him he was still looking for a church that teaches the Bible.

I told him they have a new PCA church up his way..I'm not sure if he's been to visit it yet or not..
 
Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?

I think not.

You haven't read 1 Corinthians in a while I would guess. :think:

Ron

I've got to say this (Mods feel free to remove my remarks if you deem it necessary). This comment was out of line. This was a rather big assumption on your part, Ron, based on one comment by Pastor Ivan that you didn't necessarily agree with. I would venture to guess that he has read I Corinthians "in a while."

We live in a world where everyone always wants to get in the last word. We even see this quite often on the Puritan Board. When someone has been called out they usually want to get the last word in to protect their honor or whatever. God bless you Brother Ivan for having the humility to not respond to this unnecessary comment. Your humbleness is an example to us all.
 
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Wcf
chapter Xxv
Of The Church


v. The Purest Churches Under Heaven Are Subject Both To Mixture And Error; And Some Have So Degenerated, As To Become No Churches Of Christ, But Synagogues Of Satan.

That is the question we must ask ourselves. To be, or not to be a Church anymore, doth the raven ask. For we have mixture and error. For now, I'll wait and see what my local church says and does. :detective:

For the PC(USA)er's here this is sound advice. However if we truly believe in a confessional Church how much is too much?
 
That almost made me cry. What are they doing to those people? Instead of pointing them to salvation, they are telling them that damnation is salvation.
 
I pray nearly continuously for the church of my birth, not for its sake but for the souls of the blue hairs who are being deceived by smooth talkers and flatterers.
 
That almost made me cry. What are they doing to those people? Instead of pointing them to salvation, they are telling them that damnation is salvation.

Andrew,

I think this is the result of them being more and more desperate. More and more congregations (especially the large, viable and more prosperous ones) are leaving/have left for the EPC. The powers that be can see the lights being shut off. It is not pretty.

A relative of mine's church left a little bit ago, The said nothing, voted and filed an injunction. The Presbytery expressed their "shock and sorrow" that the church did not "dailog" with them first. I had to laugh, since PCUSA "dialog" involves lawyers, bribes and threats!
 
I was at a local PC(USA) church considering leaving and they held a "informational meeting" where representatives of the Presbytery came and spoke. It was the most depressing thing I have ever seen. It was like watching a High School break-up right before my eyes. The reasons the Presbytery gave for staying was analogous to a spurned lover. It was sad, almost like watching a suicide take place.
 
At first I thought "Synagogues of Satan" was rather harsh terminology.

Then I read the links that Pastor Greco posted and it seemed quite reasonable. :(
 
Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?

I think not.

You haven't read 1 Corinthians in a while I would guess. :think:

Ron

I've got to say this (Mods feel free to remove my remarks if you deem it necessary). This comment was out of line. This was a rather big assumption on your part, Ron, based on one comment by Pastor Ivan that you didn't necessarily agree with. I would venture to guess that he has read I Corinthians "in a while."

We live in a world where everyone always wants to get in the last word. We even see this quite often on the Puritan Board. When someone has been called out they usually want to get the last word in to protect their honor or whatever. God bless you Brother Ivan for having the humility to not respond to this unnecessary comment. Your humbleness is an example to us all.

What in the world are you talking about? My comment was most appropriate. Are we now going to reject the trinitarian baptism of the PCUSA? Are all the denomination's congregations non-Christian? What does it mean that the demonination is non-Christian after all? At what precise point in time did this verdict occur from God (or his church). Certainly you should know this answer given your support of Ivan's dogmatic assertion. Tell me, are the doctrinally sound congregations in that denomination non-Christian?

Your last paragraph is amusingly ironic.

Ron
 
I missed the sodomite marriages... I seem to recall Paul telling them that such WERE some of you....



Can the PCUSA be consider Christian at all?

I think not.

You haven't read 1 Corinthians in a while I would guess. :think:

Ron

Yup, there are indeed wolves in sheep's clothing. Now what is the syllogism that concludes that the denomination is non-Christian and how are the premises that are pumped into the syllogism justified? In a word, somebody actually argue something with precision. I already comprehend the assertion.

As a separate matter - so don't confuse the two - if a denomination is not Christian, then we are not to accept the profession of faith of anyone within that denomination. So for instance, if a member of the Mormon "church" confessed Christ in an orthodox, Reformed manner, the profession would have to be rejected. The reason being, all Christians are to be found within the visible church.

Ron
 
I think there's a misunderstanding here.

Grymir is a member of a PCUSA church, and I don't think Pastor Ivan was implying that he is somehow not a brother.

There is a disconnect in your thinking between a corporate organization and each of its individual entities. In proclaiming that the corporate representation of the PCUSA, i.e. the General Assembly et al has left the faith of the one true Lord Christ, he is not claiming that each individual integral part is in absolute agreement with the majority and therefor deserving of the same label.

Pastor Ivan's comment was a condemnation of the general attitude in the PCUSA. Certainly there are those in the minority or those being decieved that don't fall within the condemnation, but those who make up the visible leadership certainly are.

Shalom dood.
 
I missed the sodomite marriages... I seem to recall Paul telling them that such WERE some of you....



You haven't read 1 Corinthians in a while I would guess. :think:

Ron

Yup, there are indeed wolves in sheep's clothing. Now what is the syllogism that concludes that the denomination is non-Christian and how are the premises that are pumped into the syllogism justified? In a word, somebody actually argue something with precision. I already comprehend the assertion.

As a separate matter - so don't confuse the two - if a denomination is not Christian, then we are not to accept the profession of faith of anyone within that denomination. So for instance, if a member of the Mormon "church" confessed Christ in an orthodox, Reformed manner, the profession would have to be rejected. The reason being, all Christians are to be found within the visible church.

Ron

You don't seem to comprehend the assertion as you appear to be fighting with a straw-man.
 
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