Ghosts and haunted houses

Discussion in 'General discussions' started by Pergamum, Dec 18, 2018.

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  1. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Noted occultists Manly P. Hall is founder of the Philosophical Research Society and considered one of the leading authorities on the occult in this century. In Horizon magazine for October-December 1944, pages 76-77, he recalls, “During the last 20-25 years I have had considerable personal experiences with persons who have complicated their lives through dabbling with the Ouija board. Out of every hundred such cases, at least 95 are worse off for the experience…. I know of broken homes, estranged families, and even suicides that can be traced directly to this source” (Encyclopedia of New Age Beliefs).

    “Even seasoned occultists and psychic researchers warn against using the Ouija board. Medium Edgar Cayce himself called it ‘dangerous.’ Edmund Gruss [Author of the book The Ouija Board: Doorway to the Occult] refers to medium Donald Page, an ‘exorcist’ of the ‘Christian’ Spiritualis Church, who asserts that ‘the majority of possession cases’ result from involvement with the Ouija board. Page believes it is one of the quickest and easiest ways to become possessed.”

    “…Alan Vaughan also points out the following: ‘It is significant, however, that the greatest outcry against the use of Ouijas has come from the Spiritualists not the parapyschologists. In England, Spiritualists groups are petitioning to ban the sale of Ouijas as toys for children- not because of vague dangers of ‘unhealthy effects on naive, suggestible persons’ – but because they fear that the children will become possessed.'”

    “…Psychic and spiritist Harold Sherman, president of ESP Research Associates Foundation in Little Rock, Arkansas, agrees: ‘The majority who have become involved with possessive and other entities came by this experience through the ouija board.'”

    National Examiner, 31787 by Robert Stamper)

    I invited a foul horror into my house with a Ouija board. My brother and I got no results when we started to use the psychic device, but suddenly the message indicator mysteriously began to move. The first thing the board told us was that the message was being sent by Seth. Then I made the tragic mistake of telling the board to prove it was real by doing something supernatural. The results were startling and scary. The board told us that the grandfather of one of my best friends would die in a week. The chandelier in the room began to shake violently and the chimes rang like pieces of metal being smashed together. The room became as cold as ice and we were shivering, though the thermometer read 70 degrees. The horrible stench of death filled the room and we couldn't stop gagging and coughing.

    Suddenly, the noises stopped and the room was as quiet as a cemetery in the middle of the night. My brother and I looked at each other in terror. We opened the windows to get rid of the stink or rotting flesh and told each other we'd forget the whole thing. But a week later the grandfather of one of my best friends died just as the board has predicted! And from time to time the chandelier would rattle, the room freeze and that awful smell return. I couldn't take it any more. I threw the board away and told my mother about the experience. She told me that once you tamper with a Ouija board, its evil spell will remain forever. And to this day, those terrifying tremors shake the house and the stench of death fills the room.

    Ouija Board Summons Demons
    (The Sun, 12986)

    A simple Ouija board became a passport to Hell for a family that accidentally summoned a demon into their living room. "I thought it might have been the Devil himself," says John Ravens, father of the tormented family. "When it was over, we were all bleeding and had severe burn marks. Our living room was a disaster area."

    "It was supposed to be a joke," says Gloria, the girl's mother. "We were going to make believe we were talking with the spirit world."

    Little Lynda, her nine-year-old brother Ronald, and their parents gathered around the board for what they thought was going to be an evening of fun at their home in a Toronto, Canada suburb. "We were just playing around with it when suddenly the planchette that spells out answers began moving by itself," says John. "We were all scared, but then I thought maybe one of the kids was up to tricks. We started asking questions, and this spirit began speaking to us. "Then it asked if it could visit with us. By this time, I was sure someone was playing a joke, and I said yes," he adds.

    That's when the nightmare began. "The demon appeared within seconds," says John. "It spun around the room overhead, laughing and cursing at us. "It was surrounded by a ring of fire and the room became so hot, it was like an inferno from Hell." The family describes the demon as red and black with scaly skin and horns. It also had giant bat wings. "Then it suddenly swooped down and attacked us," recalls John, horror flickering over his features. "It started biting each of us on the face and arms. "We tried getting up and running for the door, but every time we did, the creature started clawing us. It was so fast, we couldn't escape from it."

    Lynda and brother Ronald were picked up repeatedly and hurled across the room. As they lay helplessly on the floor, the creature pounded on their chests and heads. "It had hooves that dug into my children's faces and skin, marking them badly," says Gloria. The attack lasted for more than an hour before the horrifying demon vanished as quickly as it first appeared. The children were screaming and crying as John pulled them out of the house and drove to a nearby hospital, where they were treated for cuts and burns.

    Demons Use Ouija Board As Gateway To Take Over Soul
    (The Sun, 22884) by Lewis Clifford.

    Terrifying demons freed from other dimensions are preying on helpless human victims. And the gateway used by the grotesque monsters is being kept open by innocent toying with Ouija boards and other tools of the occult, top medical and religious experts caution.

    "They are vile creatures of the night," warned Dr. Alberto Gonzalez, of the Pan American Institute of Health. "They exist. They can possess the bodies of their victims and cause normally gentle, nonviolent people to commit outrageous crimes. They can assume other forms some quite ghastly.

    "And they are among us in many instances solely because of these sinister toys called Ouija boards." Gonzalez, a psychiatrist and parapsychologist, claims he has found demonic links to several cases of cattle mutilation and human vampirism in Central America.

    Says the Rev. Morris Cerullo, president of World Evangelism and author of The Black Side Of Satan, Creation House, Carol Stream, Illinois, 1973. "Many people have related to me weird tales of answers given by the Ouija board. This and other occult games may seem intriguing, but the implications are serious and not to be tampered with. They can lead to dangerous waters indeed.

    "Use of a Ouija has even led to violence and even to murder..." Dr. Marta Prohazka of Fairfax, Virginia, is also convinced that spirits can play terrifying destructive games with human behavior. During her practice as psychotherapist and psychoanalyst, she realized that many patients she had considered "hallucinating paranoid schizophrenics" might instead merely be in touch with something invisible to her but visible to them." I came to understand that another plane, or dimension or existence interrelated with our plane or visible manifestation," she said. "By training and expanding consciousness, some individuals gain entrance into that invisible dimension. It seems to some like a window into heaven.

    "I also learned that contact with the other dimension can be dangerous, especially if a psychically sensitive person loses his emotional harmony. The window into heaven can then become a window into Hell."

    Millions of the plastic oracles are in use in American households, nevertheless. And the eerie messages from beyond they have spelled out have been credited or blamed for marriages, divorces, sickness, misery, mystery or murder. Psychic and medium Anne Rose told the Sun: "Horrible demons have definitely been released by the Ouija board.

    "The Ouija board is a vehicle which makes it easy for negative spirits and demonic forces to enter this plane of existence." The Merrillville, Indiana clairvoyant cautioned that evil spirits or demonic forces often gain the trust of people experimenting with Ouija boards by answering several questions truthfully and providing predictions. "Once they have gained the trust of their victims, it is easy for the entity to move in and take over either by strongly influencing that person, or by outright possession," she said. People who are untrained and unsophisticated in the field of the paranormal and supernatural should never play with devices such as the Ouija board, according to the clairvoyant.
  2. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    I dismiss this based on what I believe is superstition. Have you not read the warning on the box?......"This is a game that is fictional and any semblance of reality is purely coincidental." :)
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    You proved my point, which is why I was originally reluctant to bring forth evidence.
  4. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    You made the claim. You can attempt to back it up. Otherwise it is merely an assertion. I am sure you would demand the same of others.
  5. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    Just trying to put a levity into the sad situation this thread went.
  6. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Can I ask why you believe these accounts over those that say the ouija board is not demonic?
  7. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Professor

    They are not demonic but evil, in that one ought to try to usurp the unknown future. It is a lot like the Salem witch hunt stuff. Did they (witches) really have power? No they did not, but if they tried to do what only God can do they were acting evilly.
  8. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    The simple answer is that when people open themselves to dark spirits, we shouldn't be surprised that bad things happen.

    The more complicated answer involves epistemology, realism, and nominalism.
  9. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    I’m curious about how you view the magicians of Egypt who mimicked Moses or the witch if Endor who summoned Samuel—namely, whether they weilded actual power to perform their wickedness. As with the magicians of Egypt, it did nit appear to be mere mimickery, as they conjured actual serpents (Exodus 7:11-12). Or, when John refers to sorcerers in Revelation 21:8 and 22:15, is he just speaking of those who merely attempt or aspire to such, or is he referring to people who perform actual sorcery?
  10. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    I would agree with that.
  11. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Would you say that you might expect these accounts to be true before you read them? (This question can go the other way, too, of course. Do I expect them to be untrue?)

    Further, do you believe them in all their details?

    And do you believe that people lie about these things, or that they become convinced of something that did not happen? For instance, some of the accounts are from "spiritualist" types, whobsurely would expect some sort of spiritual encounter. Could that not colour their memory?
  12. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    At the risk of offending many, I want to assert again this following truth:

    -Most 21st Century Reformed Christians are functional deists. They believe that there is a supernatural realm but that supernatural world doesn't interact daily in our lives. That is deism.

    Many of you operate as functional deists. You'll admit that Satan is active, as long as he does not really DO anything that the sinner does not do to himself.

    We fight against (1) Sin, (2) the flesh, and (3) the Devil. While some Charismatics focus too much on the 3rd option, many Reformed downplay the Devil. But the Devil DOES, in fact, fight against us.

    Many Third World believers, on the other hand, are functional animists.
  13. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    I would urge you to reconsider this. Not only is it uncharitable -- I think you don't really appreciate the views of the other side -- but there is more to deism than a rejection of certain popular conceptions of supernatural occurrences.

    Just as I would not call you a functional animist, I wish you would not call members of Christ's body functional deists.
  14. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    As evidence, look at Earl's replies above that occultic practices possess no power. I believe this is evidence of a deistic worldview.

    We can quote Paul that an idol is nothing in this world and yet Paul and Moses both said, "They sacrificed to demons, not to God, To gods they did not know, To new gods, new arrivals That your fathers did not fear," Deuteronomy 32: 16-17.

    There are principalities and powers behind false beliefs. Demons control the pagan nations and regions. There are armies of them, hierarchies, and they are still warring against God today.

    The list of condemned practices by Moses is: divination, soothsaying, augury, sorcery, use of charms, mediums, wizardry, and necromancy. All of these practices are to exert power over others or to know things not lawful. If they never worked at all, why do so many people resort to them?

    It sort of takes the air out of the balloon in Numbers 23:23, when Balaam pronounces, "There is no enchantment against Jacob, no divination against Israel,"

    If Balaam cannot exercise any power over anyone, then it is quite unremarkable that he also cannot curse Israel. The point of the story is that curses work, but not on God's people.

    Simon is described in Acts 8:9–11,

    "There was a man named Simon who had previously practiced magic in the city and amazed the nation of Samaria, saying that he himself was somebody great. They all gave heed to him from the least to the greatest saying, "This man is that power of God which is called Great." And they gave heed to him because for a long time he had amazed them with his magic."

    How did he amaze people if there was absolutely nothing to his arts? The Bible does not say that the magic is unreal, only that the magic was opposed to God and that it amazed people (yet is impotent in comparison to the Lord and his power).
  15. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    I generally give them the benefit of the doubt. It fits the supernaturalist worldview, and phenomena like this has been universal throughout human history. No doubt some can be telling stories, but since I am not employed by mythbusters there isn't too much I can do about that.
    I believe they are reporting details as they experienced them. In the heat of the moment they might have gotten minor facts wrong.
    Sure. Take a slightly more mundane example. The US govt employed the techniques of George Estabrook to shatter personalities and create multiples (which the CIA admitted on the floor of Congress). Many things these multiples say are unreliable because they have shattered personalities.
  16. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Perg, I agree with everything you are saying, but I think we can sharpen this verse. In Hebrew it is "shedim" (demons). It is from the Akkadian shadu, which means a territorial spirit of the underworld.
  17. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    While we ought to be charitable, nonetheless people here have used literally word-for-word sentences from David Hume.
  18. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Some more documentation on Ouija from Steve Hays. Steve is neither cessationist nor continuationist. He sees the problems with both. But he is a rigorous thinker and follows the evidence.

    And while not a Ouija-related incident, this is more pertinent to the OP, and especially as it involves John and Charles Wesley
  19. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    I will be charitable and simply say that you made a mistake in quoting me with the belief and implication that I meant anything like what David Hume believed.
  20. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Define deism.
  21. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    That is at least the third time you've mentioned it.

    What's the quotation from David Hume? What's the context? Is it really the case that someone here was making the same argument that Hume was making?
  22. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    I don't think you had Hume in mind, but you denied causality in this situation using the same argument Hume used to deny causality in general.
  23. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Why should you not give opposing sources the benefit of the doubt?

    Er... What? What do you mean? That there are supernatural claims across cultures? Should we give them all "the benefit of the doubt"? If not, how do you determine which ones get the benefit of the doubt?

    Some problems here.

    Some? Tales of magic and spirits have been around for a while. How much are we to believe? Is the risk of some make-believe stories necessary to a "robust demonology"?

    Minor facts? Like an icy room or a hot room or physical damage to their bodies and surroundings? It all sounds very detailed and I wonder how they could have got any of it wrong. How about the fact that the demon they saw sounds like it came out of a medieval manuscript... Is that just what demons look like, then?

    And it's not like these stories were published "in the heat of the moment." They had time to consider them, write them, and publish them.
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  24. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    For those who've been saying that demons are cast out and pushed back as Christianity expands, I'll say that the history of the evangelization of Korea knows no such thing. I have read works by early missionaries to Korea in which they clearly state a belief in traditional spirits (such as demons that cause housefires or that seize people in the dark, etc.) but the missions record makes no mention of the casting out of demons or anything of the sort.

    Just a historical note that some might find interesting.
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  25. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    Depends on the argument. Most of the counter arguments I have seen on here have been "Nuh-uh; that's impossible." There is really not much to say in response to that.
    I believe they are demonic, and I believe that they are manifestations of them. Now take the case of bi-location. I don't think it is metaphysically possible, so in that case it would be demonic deception.
    I would have to see the case in question. There is simply no way I can give a few sentences answer to thousands of years and hundreds of cultures' understanding of the supernatural.
    If you can give facts in question from specific sources, then we might be able to see. Otherwise, I think you are just saying hypotheticals and there really isn't much to say otherwise.
    That's how the demon probably manifested to them. I doubt that's what demons (whatever that word means) looks like. The entity that British special agent Alistair Crowley summoned looked a lot like what we call a Gray Alien.
    So....what, exactly?
  26. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Please tell me how I denied causality.
  27. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    This paper proves differently:

    "He rejected Korean shamanism, just as other Christian missionaries rejected magic and wizardry in different mission fields. In the process of iconoclastic encounters with Korean folk religions, however, Anglo-Saxon missionaries took over the mudang role of casting out devils and “evil spirits.”

    ...Even though Protestant missionaries attacked shamanism, burned down fetishes and talismans dedicated to household spirits, and inspired people to abandon “superstitious” beliefs and behaviors, many Korean Christians retained their traditional animistic world view. In turn, the biblical literalism and field experiences of Protestant missionaries led them to accept a Christian version of exorcisms, although their rationalism and the constitutions of the churches did not acknowledge miraculous healing in modern times. In this sense, their field experiences overrode their backgrounds in modern science and theology.

    ...Burning fetishes and destroying devil houses When a Korean decided to believe in the “Jesus doctrine,” she was instructed to burn all fetishes dedicated to household spirits. Sometimes she took them to the edge of the village and threw them as far as they could be thrown. In the eyes of missionaries, new converts needed to cut themselves from the past in a symbolic manner—by destroying the fetishes, which the Christians associated with evil spirits and old beliefs (Moore 1896; Collyer 1901; C. A. Clark 1903; Hounshell 1905; Carroll 1906; Owen 1908). When one particular mudang in 1899 gave up her sorcery and decided to become a Christian, she gave the “spiritual garment and little brass implements” to female Korean evangelists in P’yŏngyang (Fish 1899).

    ...James s. Gale (1863–1937) arrived in Korea in 1888 as a volunteer missionary of the YMCA of the University of Toronto. He joined the Korea Mission of the PCUSA (Presbyterian Church, USA) in 1891. He married the widowed Mrs. Heron in Seoul in 1892. The couple then moved to Wŏnsan, an open port on the East Sea. In 1895 two Korean families became Christians because they heard that the name of Jesus was sufficient to save every believer from the attacks of evil spirits. Gale said, “The idea of possession and demon influence has a great place here in life. The Tonghaks, who had raised such a commotion in the south last year, professed to have power to cast out devils, and that was one cause of their popularity. We rejoice that the name of Jesus is sufficient” (Gale 1895, 230).

    ...In 1897 Hulbert began to publicize cases of demon possession and reported cases of exorcism through the prayers of Korean Christians (Hulbert 1897 and 1901a).

    ...Demon possession and christian exorcism: nevius and demon possession in shandong

    John L. Nevius, who worked in China from 1854 to 1892, had experienced cases of demon possession from the beginning of his work in Shandong. He was absorbed by the question of whether demon possession still existed in the 112 | Asian Ethnology 69/1 • 2010 later nineteenth century.

    He had carefully investigated these cases and gathered the facts and testimony of missionaries and Chinese Christians on the incidents in which they expelled spirits and set the victims free.

    The result was his posthumous book, Demon Possession and Allied Themes. Not only was the “Nevius Method” adopted by the Korean missions, but his theory of demon possession and Christian exorcism also influenced the missionaries in Korea. The people of Shandong Province fully believed in demon possession; the belief was a part of Chinese animism or spirit worship. Physical suffering and violent paroxysms attended the victims’ ordeal. When the narratives of demonic possession given in the New Testament were read, therefore, Chinese Christians recognized the correspondence at once. Nevius and other missionaries proceeded with great caution in this matter. As

    ...Nevius argued that cases of demon possession actually existed in China. He describes those supposedly cured by Chinese Christians, not by the old methods that exorcists had used such as burning charms, frightening with magic spells and incantations, or pricking the body with needles, but by singing hymns and praying to God. Some missionaries testified that they felt themselves “transported back to the days of the Apostles” and were “compelled to believe that the dominion of Satan is by no means broken yet” (Nevius 1896, 71). Nevius insisted that the phenomenon on demon possession could be explained not by contemporary evolutionary and psychological theories, but only by the Bible. In 1930 Charles A. Clark mentioned Nevius’s book on demon possession: Exorcism of evil spirits by Christian workers caused much discussion and divided opinion among the missionaries and the church workers. It is mentioned in the 1895 Report about Wŏnsan particularly."

    It sounds like missionary activity in Korea was full of spiritual warfare.

    Here is the book by Nevius:

    Description: A study of demon possession, written by a veteran missionary to China who was initially skeptical of the phenomenon, until he began to study it himself. He begins with a series of cases in China which he personally investigated, followed by the results of a survey sent out to other missionaries in China, and then gives examples from India, Japan, etc. He finds strong correlations with the New Testament accounts, and with other accounts from the ancient world. This is considered by many the classic treatment of the subject. The author also interacts with the various alternative explanations of the phenomena.
  28. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Senior

    Not so. Please do try to actually appreciate what is being said.

    Well, I'm glad you're here, then. If I have any questions about what demonic stories might be true, I know whom to ask.

    I am referring to the sources you quoted earlier.

    You said they might have got minor details wrong "in the heat of the moment." I say, What heat?
  29. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    See any of Earl's comments over the past few years.
    Steve Hays, a Reformed apologist, has actually done all the homework on this. Ask him.
    For example, Cathy O'Brien, a former CIA sex-slave and MK-ULTRA victim,
    claimed that La. Senator Bennett Johnson told her he was there on the “Philadelphia Experiment” in 1943. While I certainly believe the Philadelphia Experiment is real, I don’t think Johnson was there. Johnson was born in 1932. This would have made him 11 years old. Unlikely he would be privy to a top-secret project.

    Unless he actually went back in time in the experiment, but that raises time-travel paradoxes I don’t want to get into.

    So in this case I think O'Brien's shattered personality processed the dates wrong (or Johnson was giving disinfo).
  30. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritanboard Amanuensis

    If I recall correctly, you said we don't see how the demon leaves (presuming, therefore, it doesn't exist). In other words, we don't see the cause. If you carry the argument further, the cause doesn't exist, either, since you can't see it.
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