Ghosts and haunted houses

Discussion in 'General discussions' started by Pergamum, Dec 18, 2018.

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  1. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior


    Your correction is appreciated. However, I would point out that at least some of those sources seem to say that the Christians were influenced by pagan notions.

    I have read James Scarth Gale and he seems to find the traditional beliefs in demons to be silly. The quotation above, I think, is not saying that the demon possession was real, but that the local religious beliefs were false. I could be wrong, but I have read enough of Gale, I think, to understand his view on this.
     
  2. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

    Still waiting for that quotation.
     
  3. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    It's somewhere in this thread.
     
  4. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    Let's plan a discussion of Nevius' book on Demon Possession in a week or so, shall we? I am making my way through it now. Nevius is revered as wise by all and, therefore, it would be good to discuss his findings here.
     
  5. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

    I don't believe you've quoted it, only mentioned that Hume wrote a similar sentence. I think you also ought to show that the argument was the same.
     
  6. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

    I'll be sure to add it to my reading list. Nevius seems like a chap I should read.
     
  7. Pergamum

    Pergamum Ordinary Guy (TM)

    One
    One rhetorical argument I often find in the missionary literature is to mock and belittle the demons.

    This is not to deny they exist, but to gloat over our victory over them.

    Sometimes later readers then read this as a dismissal of demons entirely, instead of merely a dismissal of the power of demons and shamans and curses over us.

    I once mocked a shaman in a town ceremony where he said he was safe to eat glass and drive swords into his breast once possessed....as long as there was not a stronger spirit nearby. So I told him that I would pray the Holy Spirit would not entirely kill him that day, but only hurt him a little.

    20 minute later he was off to the hospital after a "mishap."

    So...what happened? I don't know.
     
  8. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    In the interest of some sort of mediation, I believe @BayouHuguenot is referring to the statement quoted in this post.
     
  9. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    I'll retract one thing. It's not a word-for-word copy of Hume. 18th century writers wrote in a stumbling prose. But if anyone wants to work through the principle and the sources
    https://www.iep.utm.edu/hume-cau/
     
  10. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

  11. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    You don't recall correctly. You may have misunderstood what I was saying. You should not be so quick to misunderstand.
     
  12. Tom Hart

    Tom Hart Puritan Board Junior

    I seem to remember reading something like what you're talking about somewhere in Hume's Enquiry. But I wish to be clear that I think the arguments are not the same. Hume denies all miraculous or supernatural occurrences, while our sister here does not. I have thought it somewhat disingenuous to suggest she might have.
     
  13. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    And I wasn't arguing that she denied the supernatural. I am saying the form of her argument is the same
     
  14. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    A thought on what angels or demons look like.

    vi) In Scripture, angels manifest themselves in roughly three different forms:
    a) Humanoid angels. These are angels who can pass for humans. They look human. They have solidity. The only thing that gives them away is their supernatural power (e.g. Gen 19:11).
    Humanoid angels don't have wings.
    b) Luminous angels. Sometimes, angels have a humanoid appearance with a nimbic aura. They glow. But they don't have wings.

    c) Cherubim and seraphim. These have wings. Indeed, they have two or three pair of wings.
    Given the association between wings and fire or lightning, are these wings that look like flames or flames that look like wings? In any case, it's probably no feathers, but something like flickering firelight or electricity.
    Assuming that Isa 6 and Ezk 1 & 10 are representative, the basic distinction seems to be that seraphim are the angelic retinue for the stationary heavenly sanctuary or throne room whereas cherubim are the angelic retinue for the God's mobile throne (cf. Ps 18:10).
    It's not clear if these are different kinds of angels. Since angels are essentially incorporeal, this is merely how they manifest themselves, not how they naturally subsist.
    The cherubim are tetramorphs. They don't have the appearance of a winged-man. Rather, they are hybrids.
     
  15. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Nope. You'll have to back up a little more. The sentence you're referring to didn't have enough words to have a "form." You just decided to link it to Hume's thought. I explicitly (in a following comment) linked it to John 3:8.https://puritanboard.com/threads/ghosts-and-haunted-houses.96948/page-4#post-1185280
     
  16. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Post #112

    That's logically fallacious. There are a lot of things I don't see but I can speak with logical certainty about. And the Bible tells us a lot about Rephaim, Shedim, Nephilim, Lilith and the Tree Snake she holds, archons, thronoi, unclean spirits, Watchers, etc. I haven't seen any of them (I've felt an unclean presence, though).
     
  17. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    I don't know what's so hard about understanding this; likely it's my ineptness at speaking clearly. I'll try one more time.

    What I meant by my statement "you didn’t see what happened; you can’t know with any certainty what happened.You and I cannot see into the spiritual realm":

    If there is a situation going on where a person seems to be demonized, the weapons of one's warfare would be prayer and God's word, with the hope that God will grant freedom and repentance. It was only given to Christ and his apostles to authoritatively identify a demon, speak to a demon, and cast out a demon through commands to the demon. This is because "we can't see what is happening; we can't know with any certainty what is happening; you and I cannot see into the spiritual realm" (to change the quote a little). By "know with any certainty" I meant know infallibly. I.e., it has not been given to us to know infallibly what is going on in the spiritual realm, or to deal with it as Christ and his apostles did. One can surmise, and be right, but the response to any such situation is God's word and prayer for such a person. These are assertions that you will not agree with since we believe differently.

    I think that Christ won such a victory over the evil spiritual realm that we may rejoice that we have been given such powerful weapons of warfare against the enemy. Prayer and God's word! Every lowly believer can engage in effective spiritual warfare against the enemy of our souls (and the enemy of our children's souls, and our neighbors' souls, and so on). The church has been given this authority over Satan, and the weapons are at hand to engage in the battle. So refreshing, so encouraging, thank God we don't have to read volumes of esoteric materials and delve into dark matters. Thank God for the victory he wrought through his Son. "Hear him."
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  18. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    Tricks pure and simple tricks. Only God can do the things either immediately or through mediums like Moses and The Apostles. Our faith is based on The Resurrection and if satan could raise the dead, or do miracles, our basis for faith would be vain. The theology of Nicodemus was perfect on the point that unless one is from God no one could do what Jesus did.
     
  19. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    So when Scripture says that the magicians of Egypt conjured serpents, they weren't actually serpents?
     
  20. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    And Moses' staff ate up their sleight-of-hand tricks, on top of that!
     
  21. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    Of course people can't physically "see" into the spiritual realm. It's by definition invisible. If that's what you are getting at, I agree.
    Infallibism is a pretty steep criterion for knowledge.
     
  22. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    On what scripture do you take the position then that there can be no demonic/supernatural activities happening in this present time?
    My contention would be it will be on the rise the closer to the return of Jesus, and also those who get hooked on various drugs and alcohol who are unsaved can be unwittingly opening the doorway into the world of the occult.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
  23. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Satan and His demons still operate though in the realm of the supernatural, as they still are beings that exist outside of what we know as physical reality!
     
  24. TheInquirer

    TheInquirer Puritan Board Freshman

    Consider the following though:

    1) The supernatural fire from heaven that consumed Job's livestock after God gave Satan permission to go after him (Job 1:16)

    2) The second beast of Revelation that performs great signs and makes fire come down from heaven (Rev. 13:13-14)

    3) The warning against false prophets who do signs and wonders (Deut. 13:1-3, Mt. 24:24)

    All of these are done in order to deceive but the language seems to suggest the signs and wonders are real.
     
  25. Ryan&Amber2013

    Ryan&Amber2013 Puritan Board Junior

    Quick question: do angels still minister to God's people?
     
  26. Dachaser

    Dachaser Puritan Board Professor

    Jesus stated to us that there will be false messiah who would even be able to do signs and wonders if possible to call away even the elect, so must be some type of real supernatural workings going on!
    Matthew 24:24
     
  27. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    They were serpents, but Penn and Teller would be able to explain how they did it.
     
  28. Jeri Tanner

    Jeri Tanner Moderator Staff Member

    Ryan, could you provide the Scripture references that inspire your question?
     
  29. Taylor Sexton

    Taylor Sexton Puritan Board Junior

    So when Scripture says that the magicians "did the same" as Aaron (Exodus 7:11), it is being deceptive?
     
  30. earl40

    earl40 Puritan Board Post-Graduate

    So were they from God?
     
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