Giving In Worship

Status
Not open for further replies.

Grant

Puritan Board Graduate
My intent is not to start a debate on wether an offering “is” or “is not” an Element of worship, so please let’s not go there in this thread.

Let us assume that giving tithes in public worship “IS” an element.

In my congregation we pass the plate in both the morning and evening worship. Usually I place my family’s tithe in the plate every other Sunday (I am paid every 2 weeks) during the morning service.

IF the giving of tithes is an element of worship, should I not split up my tithes to be able to place something in the plate every Sunday during both the AM and PM services?

This is a honest question. If I hold, as the PCA and I believe the OPC do, that giving is an element in the service, then am I failing to worship the Lord as he has commanded if I let the plate pass by and place nothing in it?
 
Last edited:
Do you have a baptism at every service? Circumstances drive some of what's in worship at any given time. Take the time to meditate on what the Lord has given you, recognizing that all you have is his. You also could pray for any specific monitary need in the congregation.
 
I'm not a fan of passing the plate at all.
I bring my offering the first Sunday of every month, being that I get my SS & pension once per month. I don't feel convicted when the plate is passed during the morning and evening services. God knows my heart, and my practice.

I'm in the OPC. The Book Of Church Order (page 139) addresses the offering (emboldened text, and underlining, emphasis mine) ;

4. The Bringing of Offerings a. The bringing of offerings in the public assembly of God’s people on the Lord’s Day is a solemn act of worship to almighty God. The people of God are to set aside to him the firstfruits of their labors; in so doing, they should present themselves with thanksgiving as a living sacrifice to God. All should participate in this act of worship when God gives opportunity for it. Parents are to instruct and encourage their children by precept and example to give of their substance regularly, purposefully, generously, and joyfully to the Lord through his church.
 
My intent is not to start a debate on wether an offering “is” or “is not” an Element of worship, so please let’s not go there in this thread.

Let us assume that giving tithes in public worship “IS” an element.

In my congregation we pass the plate in both the morning and evening worship. Usually I place my family’s tithe in the plate every other Sunday (I am paid every 2 weeks) during the morning service.

IF the giving of tithes is an element of worship, should I not split up my tithes to be able to place something in the plate every Sunday during both the AM and PM services?

This is a honest question. If I hold, as the PCA and I believe the OPC do, that giving is an element in the service, then am I failing to worship the Lord as he has commanded if I let the plate pass by and place nothing in it?
We tithe every week but I get paid every other. I think you're on to something good but not necessary.
 
IF the giving of tithes is an element of worship, should I not split up my tithes to be able to place something in the plate every Sunday during both the AM and PM services?

If you don't give until you get paid, that means that you are withholding half the money for a week. In that case, you should gross up your giving the second week to make up the time value of the money that you did not timely give to the church.

Now, in the current US economy, that would be minuscule, but in times of high interest rates (like the Ford - Carter economy) or if the economy hit a period of hyperinflation (Venezuela, Wiemar Germany, Mugabe's Rhodesia, etc), the adjustments might be significant.
 
My opinion - and regardless of how some may think, opinions are all we really have in this matter - is that we should tithe of our gain. So when do you experience gain? Typically, that’s your payday. My opinion is that you should give when you get paid.

Beware of the temptation to be reckoned pious by being seen as giving: if you get paid once per month, then give once per month when you experience that gain. Or give twice a month according to when you are paid, etc. Beware of the temptation to divide that tithe out from that one paycheck you received into a number of smaller amounts just so you can be seen as giving every week.

Of course, as I said, this is just my opinion.
 
My opinion - and regardless of how some may think, opinions are all we really have in this matter - is that we should tithe of our gain. So when do you experience gain? Typically, that’s your payday. My opinion is that you should give when you get paid.

Beware of the temptation to be reckoned pious by being seen as giving: if you get paid once per month, then give once per month when you experience that gain. Or give twice a month according to when you are paid, etc. Beware of the temptation to divide that tithe out from that one paycheck you received into a number of smaller amounts just so you can be seen as giving every week.

Of course, as I said, this is just my opinion.

This does seem to be the way things worked under the law in Israel.
 
Since tithing in the OT only covers agricultural produce, it would never have been a weekly practice (or bi-weekly, or monthly). Besides, according to Deuteronomy 14, one of the primary purposes of the tithe was to finance an annual family party in the temple precincts, including adult beverages. So your contribution to the church potluck is also part of your "tithe". It you want to bring an offering, you can bring it whenever you desire (though the NT suggests a weekly offering to promote consistency). If our goal is to excel in the grace of giving, as Paul urges us, then it isn't a duty to be undertaken "just right". The heart attitude is always going to be more important than the amount or the manner.

By the way, you are behind the times if you are still writing checks. These days you can simply give online. Some churches produce slips of paper that you can put in the offering basket that say "I gave online" so you can still participate as the offering goes around if you wish.
:worms:
 
These days you can simply give online.

One should consider increasing their giving to cover the additional costs associated with online giving if one uses a debit or credit card. On the other hand, EFT transactions may be cheaper for the church than checks.

From our church web site:

"Please note that the convenience of credit and debit card giving costs the church 2.2% of the amount per transaction. Please consider increasing your contribution to include the additional charge incurred by the church."

"You can also give through electronic funds transfer through the PCPC website. By logging in and providing your bank routing number and account number information, your funds can be sent to PCPC directly. This means of giving incurs the lowest fees other than cash gifts."
 
Some churches produce slips of paper that you can put in the offering basket that say "I gave online" so you can still participate as the offering goes around if you wish.
Thank you for that! It just solved a problem that I've wrestled with for a long time: by giving online, you might cause offense during the service if you don't tithe.
 
One should consider increasing their giving to cover the additional costs associated with online giving if one uses a debit or credit card. On the other hand, EFT transactions may be cheaper for the church than checks.

From our church web site:

"Please note that the convenience of credit and debit card giving costs the church 2.2% of the amount per transaction. Please consider increasing your contribution to include the additional charge incurred by the church."

"You can also give through electronic funds transfer through the PCPC website. By logging in and providing your bank routing number and account number information, your funds can be sent to PCPC directly. This means of giving incurs the lowest fees other than cash gifts."
The ARP has a mechanism whereby people can give online (from their bank account, not credit card) with zero cost to the giver or the local church plant (not sure if it applies for established churches). Of course the denomination is bearing some administrative costs to do so, and it might not suit every church, but it is possible to do. It might be worth denominations looking into.
 
Grant, Seeing as you are a Presbyterian I would suggest you look to the history as a help in your decision making. The Westminster 1645 "Directory for the Publick Worship of God" is silent except for special offerings for the poor. Thomas Boston was paid in grain and bacon which he could then sell to get money. Many Scottish ministers and their ministry was provided for by the Laird of the estate or barony in which he ministered. So taking up a collection was not easily done with baskets passed around the room. In America there is much accounting of both the Presbyterian and the Congregational church not practicing weekly tithing until the 19th century.

You should also probably remove the "the term "tithe" from your vocabulary because as Iain has said it was an agrarian term. In fact many of the early church fathers expand this to a more communal storing of possession.
John Chrysostom (c. 349–407 AD)
“Woe to him, it is said, who doeth not alms; and if this was the case under the Old Covenant, much more is it under the New. If, where the getting of wealth was allowed and the enjoyment of it, and the care of it, there was such provision made for the succoring of the poor, how much more in that Dispensation, where we are commanded to surrender all we have? For what did not they of old do?
“They gave tithes, and tithes again upon tithes for orphans, widows, and strangers, whereas someone was saying to me in astonishment at another, ‘Why, such an one givest tithes.’ What a load of disgrace does this expression imply, since what was not a matter of wonder with the Jews has come to be so in the case of the Christians? If there was danger then in omitting tithes, think how great it must be now.”

After forty years of personally laboring this notion of the tithe I am convinced that the worship service giving should be ceremonial and expressive but not conscience binding.

Don't let yourself be caught up in detailed accounting practices that only we in modern times who get paid much differently than the history of the world are able to perform. Also heed Ben's warning about what others see. Though from just a short while reading your stuff I don't see this as a problem for you. I've been on both sides of that issue, the "seer and the "seeee". Nasty business on both sides. Let your conscience be informed by the eternal Word not by modern interpretation.
 
On the other hand, I've been a member of churches where the pastor doesn't always receive a weekly pay check. The offering doesn't always cover the costs of the building, insurances, etcetera. We are not to muzzle the ox which is treading out the corn.
 
Grant, Seeing as you are a Presbyterian I would suggest you look to the history as a help in your decision making. The Westminster 1645 "Directory for the Publick Worship of God" is silent except for special offerings for the poor. Thomas Boston was paid in grain and bacon which he could then sell to get money. Many Scottish ministers and their ministry was provided for by the Laird of the estate or barony in which he ministered. So taking up a collection was not easily done with baskets passed around the room. In America there is much accounting of both the Presbyterian and the Congregational church not practicing weekly tithing until the 19th century.

You should also probably remove the "the term "tithe" from your vocabulary because as Iain has said it was an agrarian term. In fact many of the early church fathers expand this to a more communal storing of possession.
John Chrysostom (c. 349–407 AD)
“Woe to him, it is said, who doeth not alms; and if this was the case under the Old Covenant, much more is it under the New. If, where the getting of wealth was allowed and the enjoyment of it, and the care of it, there was such provision made for the succoring of the poor, how much more in that Dispensation, where we are commanded to surrender all we have? For what did not they of old do?
“They gave tithes, and tithes again upon tithes for orphans, widows, and strangers, whereas someone was saying to me in astonishment at another, ‘Why, such an one givest tithes.’ What a load of disgrace does this expression imply, since what was not a matter of wonder with the Jews has come to be so in the case of the Christians? If there was danger then in omitting tithes, think how great it must be now.”

After forty years of personally laboring this notion of the tithe I am convinced that the worship service giving should be ceremonial and expressive but not conscience binding.

Don't let yourself be caught up in detailed accounting practices that only we in modern times who get paid much differently than the history of the world are able to perform. Also heed Ben's warning about what others see. Though from just a short while reading your stuff I don't see this as a problem for you. I've been on both sides of that issue, the "seer and the "seeee". Nasty business on both sides. Let your conscience be informed by the eternal Word not by modern interpretation.
Bill,

Thanks for sharing. Currently, my preference would be a tithe box located in the front and/or back of the santurary, as I am not sure yet that I agree a collection belongs in the formal service (between the call to worship and benediction). Currently in my reading of scripture, our confession, and a wide span of Reformation liturgies I feel it should be done outside of the formal worship as defined above. Still chewing on this though.

I use the word tithe because that is what the “PCA BCO” uses in (54-1).
From the PCA BCO 54-1:

“The Holy Scriptures teach that God is the owner of all persons and all things and that we are but stewards of both life and possessions; that God’s ownership and our stewardship should be acknowledged; that this acknowledgement should take the form, in part, of giving at least a tithe of our income and other offerings to the work of the Lord through the Church of Jesus Christ, thus worshipping the Lord with our possessions; and that the remainder should be used as becomes Christians.”

Further, the reason I asked this question was because, though I am still wrestling with this personally, I am under the authority of my session and the current thinking is that a collection during the service is an element. Since this line of thinking is not “strange” even to some of the reformers, I do not see this as a matter to divide or cause “beef” over and am more than happy to comply as a cheerful giver.

I do not hold to the OT “tithe” being required today especially in light of my understanding of which laws were abrogated; however I DO see it as a good & solid baseline (general equity), which is derived from the OT. I actually believe the PCA BCO uses this language well in their BCO. I do not wish to debate that here necessarily, as there are many other PB threads that his have represented that dual:detective:
 
Last edited:
You do well to get this right in your mind as an ordained and avowed officer. Yes, the PCA uses the term tithe as a baseline, so you should definitely support that view. I agree that we might not have it right as a regulative principle, however.
 
by giving online, you might cause offense during the service if you don't tithe.

The only thing that gives me offense during the service in connection with this issue is when someone refuses to touch the plate and pass it on down the pew so that I have to lean over him and give it to someone down the row.

As to folks sitting in the pew paying attention to what others are putting or not putting in the plate - they are busybodies, and I wouldn't really care what they thought of me. It's their problem if they are offended, not mine. If you try to avoid giving offense for that, they'll find some other reason to be offended.
 
Our church keeps the offering plates in the foyer and I always drop an offering in on the way into the sanctuary.

Chris,

I actually can’t believe I have not thought of that. Our plates sit at the foot of the pulpit and now that I think of it, I have seen checks in the plates before the Deacons ever grab them for the formal collection. Thanks for that!
 
Regarding giving on-line and fees, there are options to not have such high fees associated. Our churches uses a feature from BB&T for non-profits which allows the church to have a very small (annual?) fee to use the service and then has no additional per transaction fees. It only allows ACH transfers from a savings or checkings account though.
 
In my OPC church, we use bags, not plates. It's harder for people to check out what other people are giving when you use bags.
 
I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law
 
I think I might be the only woman on this site.. and so feel free to take my sex into account. but it is my understanding that the tithe is an Old Testament law because the Temple was also the seat of "secular" government so it was like "paying taxes" as well as a spiritual offering..in the NT it is never taught, instead we are told to be "Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." There seems a lot of legalism in this thread.
My pastor also describes the collection as a part of our worship and I think it is.. but if we give out of a feeling of an "obligation " is it worship or "work"? I think most of us use 10% because it is a comfortable tradition and we take seriously the need to support our church and pastor .. My advise is if you are having a spiritual problem on the weeks you do not "tithe "put a dollar in the plate... but to feel bound by OT law is not worship it could almost feel like a requirement or law

Interesting post, Terry. And, have no fear! You're not the only woman on this site. Also: my pastor is from Buffalo, New York (raised in Grand Island, originally).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top