God Gave Wine: What The Bible Says About Alcohol - by Kennet

Discussion in 'The Literary Forum' started by luvroftheWord, May 19, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    So now we are Pharisees who are adhering to man-made laws? Come on guys! Is this a hill anyone wants to die on?

    Go back and read my posts. In no place did I call anyone a name or say that they are wrong for drinking. In fact, I said that I condemn no one for drinking. I simply stated my opinion on the matter (just like everyone else was doing; it just so happens that mine was not the majority or what you thought was correct) and I get called a Pharisee.

    I have been called worse. I have thick skin. You have not hurt my feelings in the least. But all this is a bit much.

    Oh, and regarding food and alcohol, I will say this (mostly trying to be funny): you do not read about people going to Outback, getting full on a steak, and then, because they were filled with steak, get into a wreck on the way home. "What happened here, officer?" "It was the driver, he had the 16 oz. instead of the 10 oz. When will people learn?"

    :D:D:D:D:D:D

    Lon

    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by panicbird]
     
  2. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Lon,

    You will notice that I did not name any names in my post. I was referring to a line of thought in the evangelical church not any one specific person. Re-read my post I don't think what I said qualifies as signaling out anyone on this thread.

    *edit* Lon, I was referring more specifically actually to Piper and MacArthur's statements. That quote you posted from Piper is simply wrong, as are some of the inferences he makes in the article. To suggest that a connection can be made with drinking and being "in tune with God's will" is really begging the question: Didn't God already make up rules to govern alchohol usage? Why do we have to add to that?

    His comments also seem to suggest that he had a happy home because no one drank. What about all the families with parents who do drink responsibly? That's just simply a wrong-headed thing to say.

    [Edited on 5-21-2004 by Ianterrell]
     
  3. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Paul,

    I don't think there would be anything inherently wrong with those things.
     
  4. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    haha you got me.
     
  5. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    Ian,

    Did God makes rules governing the drinking of alcohol? If so, please show me in Scripture? I am not being confrontational; I simply do not know about this particular teaching in Scripture.

    Also, while there may not be a necessary connection between drinking and the "ability to recognize and do the will of God," I do think that there often is. For example, the person who is drinking often gets a buzz; does this buzz help one discern the will of God as revealed in Scripture? Does it aid that ability? Or, does it not affect it at all? Or, does it hinder it? My only personal experience with drinking is of the "let's get drunk" variety, though I realize that others do not engage in this. Broaden my horizons! I think this is analogous to looking at beautiful women. To look at a beautiful woman and recognize her beauty is not a sin. However, because of our sinful nature, it often turns into such. I guess, for me, it boils down to not giving the flesh an opportunity.

    Lon
     
  6. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:f2752d7892]
    I simply stated my opinion on the matter (just like everyone else was doing; it just so happens that mine was not the majority or what you thought was correct) and I get called a Pharisee.
    [/quote:f2752d7892]

    Who called you a Pharisee?
     
  7. tcalbrecht

    tcalbrecht Puritan Board Junior

    [quote:6f3d1557dc]
    Did God makes rules governing the drinking of alcohol?
    [/quote:6f3d1557dc]

    Drunkenness is verboten.


    [quote:6f3d1557dc]
    [b:6f3d1557dc]And be not drunk with wine[/b:6f3d1557dc], wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; (Ephesians 5:18)

    For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, [b:6f3d1557dc]not given to wine[/b:6f3d1557dc], no striker, not given to filthy lucre; (Titus 1:7)

    Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and [b:6f3d1557dc]drunkenness[/b:6f3d1557dc], not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. (Romans 13:13)

    Nor thieves, nor covetous, [b:6f3d1557dc]nor drunkards[/b:6f3d1557dc], nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Cor. 6:10,11)

    Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
    Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
    Envyings, murders, [b:6f3d1557dc]drunkenness[/b:6f3d1557dc], revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (Gal 5:19-21)
    [/quote:6f3d1557dc]
     
  8. sastark

    sastark Puritan Board Graduate

    A study I did a long time ago on drunkenness:

    http://www.geocities.com/crusader1517/papers/drunkenness.html

    ---------

    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is a work of darkness, a lust of the flesh.[/b:2252b347a0]

    Romans 13:12, 13, 14

    12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to [fulfill its] lusts.


    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is a work of the flesh.[/b:2252b347a0]

    Galatians 5: 19, 20, 21

    19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.


    [b:2252b347a0]Being drunk opposes being filled with the Holy Spirit[/b:2252b347a0]

    Ephesians 5: 15-21

    15 See then that you walk circumspectly, not as fools but as wise, 16 redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Therefore do not be unwise, but understand what the will of the Lord [is.] 18 And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, 19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, 20 giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, 21 submitting to one another in the fear of God.

    [u:2252b347a0]v. 18- Note opposition of being filled with the Spirit and being drunk.[/u:2252b347a0]


    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkards are to be excluded from the fellowship of the church.[/b:2252b347a0]

    1 Corinthians 5: 11, 12, 13

    11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what [have] I [to do] with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."


    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is a punishment from God[/b:2252b347a0]

    Jeremiah 13: 12-15

    12 " Therefore you shall speak to them this word: 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel: "Every bottle shall be filled with wine." ' And they will say to you, 'Do we not certainly know that every bottle will be filled with wine?' 13 "Then you shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land -- even the kings who sit on David's throne, the priests, the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem -- with drunkenness! 14 "And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together," says the LORD. "I will not pity nor spare nor have mercy, but will destroy them." ' " 15 Hear and give ear: Do not be proud, For the LORD has spoken.


    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness is outside the will of God.[/b:2252b347a0]

    1 Peter 4: 1-5

    1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 that he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God. 3 For we [have spent] enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles -- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with [them] in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of [you.] 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.

    [u:2252b347a0]v. 2, 3- Note opposition of the will of God and the will of the Gentiles.[/u:2252b347a0]


    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness will be punished in this life.[/b:2252b347a0]

    Proverbs 23:21

    For the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty, And drowsiness will clothe [a man] with rags.


    [b:2252b347a0]Drunkenness will be punished in the next life.[/b:2252b347a0]

    Galatians 5: 19, 20, 21

    19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told [you] in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

    [Edited on 5-22-2004 by sastark]
     
  9. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    Tom,

    [quote:6b0ac5c5ab][i:6b0ac5c5ab]Originally posted by Ianterrell[/i:6b0ac5c5ab]
    The Bible defines for us the proper usage of alchohol we don't need [b:6b0ac5c5ab]pharisaic [/b:6b0ac5c5ab] burdens to protect us from "missing the will of God." All Christianity needs is its own Talmud. [/quote:6b0ac5c5ab]

    While not naming me by name, in the context of this discussion, I am the one who abstains from alcohol (i.e., the one who "burdens," though I have said that I do not condemn those who drink). Also, I am the one who quoted Piper on the will of God and alcohol.

    Are the drunkeness passages the only ones? How is drunkeness defined? A little buzz? A lot of buzz?

    Lon
     
  10. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    Thanks Paul.

    I have never said that drinking is biblically wrong. I do have a question about the passage you quoted, however. Who are the perishing, and who are those in anguish? The verse seems to me to be saying that we should relieve those who are suffering, kind of like when Paul told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach. How does that apply today? I do not think that we would we give a cancer patient a beer to dull the pain (hey, maybe we should! It could be a new outreach program for the church. :D ).

    I look forward to your response. You really are, as the kids say, "the bomb" (I am so not hip). :D

    Lon
     
  11. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Lon,

    thanks for your patient response. I think Tom answered the question for me as to the bible's teaching on drinking. We are not to drink in excess which is to drunkeness. You mentioned your experience with drinking as the getting drunk variety. Whenever I go to an Italian restaurant I like to have a nice glass of Red wine to go with my pasta. This is one example of a usage of wine that is not keeping me from being spiritually minded. I personally have never been drunk before, by the grace of God, but I drink beer. And I drink wine. And I receive them with thanksgiving! I think its funny, Piper wrote an excellent essay entitled "how to drink orange juice to the glory of God". It would be just as true a statement to have titled it "how to drink a Budweiser to the glory of God".

    The idea that drinking responsibly is dangerous is an idea foreign to the bible where David says that God gave wine to man to make his heart glad. If drinking was in and of itself dubious as Piper and MacArthur suggest they are to be commended for being wiser than the Lord Jesus who provided the alchoholic beverages for a wedding if I remember correctly. And then wine is a part of regular Christian worship, it was the norm in communion until about the turn of the past century when arminian Dispensationalists began equating all forms of alchohol usage as sin, both responsible and irresponsible. I blame Finney. :grad:
     
  12. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Song of Songs 7:9
    And your mouth like the best wine!" "It goes {down} smoothly for my beloved, Flowing gently {through} the lips of those who fall asleep.
     
  13. panicbird

    panicbird Puritan Board Freshman

    Thanks all! While I do not think that I will soon be drinking (I guess I will just have to wait until the great feast, Paul), I appreciate learning.

    So, how do we define drunkenness?

    Lon

    [Edited on 5-22-2004 by panicbird]
     
  14. George Bailey

    George Bailey Puritan Board Freshman

    Paul,
    Awesome answer to the same question that I had. Thanks.
    :scholar:
     
  15. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    Paul,

    Good answer man! Drunkeness has to be handled by the individual. I know my personal limits and some people can drink more than eye. Some can't drink half as much. It's best then left up to the indivual to excercise wisdom and caution in this matter.
     
  16. Craig

    Craig Puritan Board Senior

    I really enjoy a couple glasses of wine on the Sabbath...in fact, my wife and I had some (for which we thanked God...He truly warms our hearts by it :amen:).

    I never thought I'd be able to partake of the fruit of the vine...I grew up being told it was wrong...since then. my parents have changed their mind, as have my brother and sister in law...we all drink it together when at home for a meal. Our family has grown closer (partly due to the vino, I think).

    If it goes against conscience; don't do it...but don't tell me not to. If people look perplexed when they see me drink...I'll put it away...if they happen to shout judgment upon me...I am sure to top it off and swig some more!

    In all seriousness...how could there even be a debate about this? The clarity of scripture is amazing. We should not become drunk, and that is fairly easy to tell when you've had too much. For those who haven't had alcohol, it is easy to tell...to those who say they drink and can't tell when enough is enough: They're either lying, or they're drunks who don't want to feel responsible for their behavior.

    [Edited on 5-23-2004 by Craig]
     
  17. Ianterrell

    Ianterrell Puritan Board Sophomore

    "If people look perplexed when they see me drink...I'll put it away...if they happen to shout judgment upon me...I am sure to top it off and swig some more! "

    lol
     
  18. king of fools

    king of fools Puritan Board Freshman

    [quote:267aa80d7d][i:267aa80d7d]Originally posted by panicbird[/i:267aa80d7d]
    Has anyone read what Piper has to say about drinking? ...

    "... In general, drinking alcoholic beverages does not increase one's sensitivity to the will of God. On the contrary, it weakens the intensity of our desire to be holy as God is holy. Therefore, I feel no need whatsoever to make wine or beer or any other alcoholic beverage part of my diet. It contradicts and threatens what I value most."

    ....

    Also, regarding the point that food can also lead to sin, I must say that it is much easier with alcohol to dive into sin. By that I mean, I can eat a good steak and feel OK. I feel no need to keep eating more and more steak once I finish.

    Food (and sex, for that matter) is necessary for survival (food for both personal and species survival, sex for the latter). Alcohol is not.

    [/quote:267aa80d7d]

    Interesting point, but I' m not sure how Piper could substantiate such an argument. How do you prove that alcohol doesn't "increase one's sensitivity to the will of God"? I'm not sure that you can prove that.

    Drunkeness, yes I agree that doesn't glorify God and leaves the intoxiacted person with impaired judgment and clouded thinking. We are told outright in the pages of scripture over and over to not be drunk. But one or two drinks per day? We're not talking about excesses, but controlled moderation. Moreover, just because something isn't necessary for survival doesn't mean it's bad.

    1 Tim 3:8 "Likewise deacons must be reverent, not double-tongued, [b:267aa80d7d]not given to much wine[/b:267aa80d7d], not greedy for money, holding the mystery of the faith with a pure conscience."

    1 Tim 5:23 "No longer drink only water, but [b:267aa80d7d]use a little wine[/b:267aa80d7d] for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities."
     
  19. king of fools

    king of fools Puritan Board Freshman

    I agree with the personal relative approach on this issue. I am familiar with a certain RB texan man who currently weights about 270 lbs. (no names!) He would have no problem finishing off 8 or 9 drinks in an hour and still not be "legally" drunk to drive. (although, I doubt he would have more that 4 drinks per month)

    On the other hand, I also am aware of an old friend that had a terrible intollerance to alcohol. 3 drinks and he would pass out.

    In all areas of our life, the Christian must strive to be in control of thoughts and actions and must not become enslaved to anything. Personal responsibility.

    [Edited on 6-5-2004 by king of fools]
     
  20. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:d92491cabd][i:d92491cabd]Originally posted by Paul manata[/i:d92491cabd]
    [quote:d92491cabd]
    So, how do we define drunkenness?
    [/quote:d92491cabd]

    If you want my honest opinion... I have thought about this alot. I am at the position right now that this is a somewhat relative issue.



    The reason I say relative is in the amount people can drink. Some may be able to have 5 beers when others would be platered by that. SInce I don't think that the law's standard works..I mean was .05% what the bible called drunk? And I know some who are not "drunk" but if the blew in a breathalizer they would be. [/quote:d92491cabd]

    I know Paul took a break from the board, so this question is not directed towards him specifically. Since someone is mentioning online Christians are driving me crazy, the rightness/wrongness of alcohol has been brought up. That being so, I have a practical question to ask. I stand on the side of Ken Gentry and Co. and have read his book,[i:d92491cabd] God Gave Wine[/i:d92491cabd]. I am to show my naivete on this next qestion: If I were to drink a glass of wine at an Italian Restaraunt, wouls I be able to pass a breathalizer test? The reason that I know so little about this is that I grew up being told that wine was wrong with none of the "pro-wine" texts being quoted. I guess that I am a little sheltered. To be honest, I have only had one glass of wine in my life and that was recently.
     
  21. bockman

    bockman Inactive User

    Hi Finn,
    I don't know if worrying about passing breathalisers is as important as self awareness as you imbibe. Legally you may or may not be drunk depending on your weight and constitution, but the effect you feel when you drink is the issue.
     
  22. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:c5d590683c][i:c5d590683c]Originally posted by bockman[/i:c5d590683c]
    Hi Finn,
    I don't know if worrying about passing breathalisers is as important as self awareness as you imbibe. Legally you may or may not be drunk depending on your weight and constitution, but the effect you feel when you drink is the issue. [/quote:c5d590683c]

    I should have made myself more clear: I have no moral qualms about moderate intakes of alcohol. I am 5'7 150lb. I have never been drunk nor after drinking a glass of wine did I feel that much different.
     
  23. bockman

    bockman Inactive User

    I probably am misunderstanding and it wouldn't be the first time...'s a little habit of mine.

    I'm was just wondering why you'd wonder if you'd pass a breathalizer with one drink? Is it a driving issue?
     
  24. BayouHuguenot

    BayouHuguenot Puritan Board Doctor

    [quote:b90b68a892][i:b90b68a892]Originally posted by bockman[/i:b90b68a892]
    I probably am misunderstanding and it wouldn't be the first time...'s a little habit of mine.

    I'm was just wondering why you'd wonder if you'd pass a breathalizer with one drink? Is it a driving issue? [/quote:b90b68a892]

    Bear in mine my absyssmal ignorance on some issues. I just wanted to make sure I had every corner covered.
     
  25. bockman

    bockman Inactive User

    Oh, no, no no! Don't be silly. I was just wondering. I shouldn't even be commenting as I'm not familiar with the book being discussed. I apologize.
     
  26. VirginiaHuguenot

    VirginiaHuguenot Puritanboard Librarian

    "God Gave Wine" and "Drinking with Calvin and Luther" are two of the best books anywhere on this subject, In my humble opinion.

    All of God's blessings, including alcoholic beverages, are to be enjoyed in moderation as appropriate to God's glory.

    Cheers!
     
  27. just_grace

    just_grace Puritan Board Freshman

    Grass...

    I would not buy any these days but if I was in a situation where I got passed a joint, I would probably take a toke !!!!

    Old habits die hard, I would rather put them to death...
     
  28. Ex Nihilo

    Ex Nihilo Puritan Board Senior

    In my humble opinion, the point at which a person probably shouldn't drive is significantly lower than the legal limit.
     
  29. PuritanCovenanter

    PuritanCovenanter Moderator Staff Member

    This is the best article I have read on the subject.

    The Bible and Alcoholic Beverages by Greg Price
    I moved the article to The Putitan Pub

    Link to article

    [Edited on 7-29-2005 by puritancovenanter]
     
  30. Puritanhead

    Puritanhead Puritan Board Professor

    I went to Christian schools like Liberty and Regent-- and the prevailing sentiment amongst the stripe of dispensationalists that dominant there-- is that alcohol is inherently sinful because it is liable to abuse... Some are apt to question one's spirituality if they hear someone is purported to consume an alcoholic beverage.

    Though, I can certainly understood bans on alcohol for college students in Christian undergrad institutions.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page