God's Judgment in Varied Catastrophic Providential Circumstances

[C. Matthew McMahon]

A number of Puritans (including Vincent and Mead), were directly involved in the plagues and fires of London. Mead saw the plague as a direct example of God’s wrath against the city for its sin and wickedness. Vincent saw the great fire in the same way. Historically, the Great Plague of 1665 was the last major plague in England. In one week almost 8,000 people died, and in seven months 100,000 people in London were dead. At the time, that was tantamount to 20% of the entire population of the city. Other plagues which came about later were the third pandemic from 1855-1950. It was a strain of the bubonic plague killing 12,000,000. In 1918-1920 the flu pandemic killed 75,000,000. In 1958 the Asian flu killed 2,000,000. In 2009, worldwide, 14,286 people died from the flu. In 2010 Haiti had a cholera outbreak that killed 10,000. In 2011 in the Congo, measles killed 4,500. From 2013-2016 the West Africa Ebola virus has killed 11,300. In 2016, in the United States of America, the Zika virus has now killed….how many?

Mead in his work, "Discovering the Wickedness of Our Heart," has a common theme using an exegetical structure to 1 Kings 8, (A to B), “When thy people Israel be smitten down before the enemy, (A) because they have sinned against thee, (B)” (1 Kings 8:33). “A” occurs and then God sends some kind of plague, war, famine, etc., to judge them; the “B” of the verse. A, then B. A, then B. A, then B.

I’m not being repetitious. His point is, "When heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, [because] they have sinned against thee,” (1 Kings 8:35). Mead uses the summary of these ideas in verse 37, “If there be in the land famine, if there be pestilence, blasting, mildew, locust, or if there be caterpillar; if their enemy besiege them in the land of their cities; whatsoever plague, whatsoever sickness there be…” (1 Kings 8:37). The people sinned, and God brought a plague on account of sin. Vincent does the same in his work "The Way to Escape the Horrible Eternal Burnings of Hell."

Jesus thought the same way about God’s judgment on sin. “Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish,” (Luke 13:4-5). Events like these do not happen by accident. God is always behind their working providentially, but Christ saw God’s judgment in the tower that fell on 18 people.
What would Christ think about a plague that wipes out hundreds of thousands or millions? Or of a hurricane like Harvey that has killed 60? (That's 42 more people that the tower.) Or now, what about Irma? (So far has killed 10).

It's interesting to me that the news, weather channel, etc., ALWAYS totally delete any mention of the possibility of God existing in these disasters, and that Christians seem to ALWAYS say that "we just can't say." Jesus, though, saw judgment in the death of 18.

Thoughts?

 

[earl40]

How can one tell if one or many are under judgment or chastisement? In time and Our Lord will tell us.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

How can one tell if one or many are under judgment or chastisement? In time and Our Lord will tell us.

I know Jesus is God, but he saw 18 being killed by a falling tower as judgment.
Vincent saw the fires as judgment.
Mead saw the plague as judgment.

What should our disposition be towards Catastrophic events in this light?

 

[JimmyH]

I'm in the book of Ezekiel now, in my M'Cheyne 1 year Bible reading plan. Going through Jeremiah and Lamentations always makes me wonder when God's wrath will come upon this world of time. With a hurricane, or two, approaching South Florida as I type this I'm praying for His restraint and mercy for us.

 

[Ed Walsh]

(Hope I'm not too far off subject. If I am, let me know and I will delete it.)
I shared this last night with the small group I lead. We are studying Luke, but I just finished Jonah yesterday morning, and it made me think of the USA. We need a revival. I hope one comes.

Where is the God of Ananias and Sapphira?

Although we are skating on thin ice, we, as a nation, are getting away with murder. Abortion. Remember that? Now, the LGBT community has won the day. They not only want our tolerance, they demand our affirmation. They require us to celebrate their lifestyle. Listen to me. I just called it a “lifestyle,” and not what it is: debauchery, depravity, immorality, corruption, degeneracy, perversion, sin. The wicked are calling on God to judge them. Well, they might just get their wish.

The fact that we are not having a war on our soil, famine, drought, plague, etc., is that a blessing from God? Is it?

Ecclesiastes 8:11 (KJV)
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

Isaiah 26:9,10
9 My soul yearns for you in the night; my spirit within me earnestly seeks you.
For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
10 If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness;
in the land of uprightness he deals corruptly and does not see the majesty of the Lord.

I think the future for the US is pretty grim — unless God intervenes. Will it be judgment? Or will it be a revival? Or both?

[read excerpts from]

A Faithful Narrative of the Surprising Work of God, In the Conversion of Many Hundred Souls, In Northampton, Massachusetts, and the Neighboring Towns and Villages of New Hampshire, in New England; In a Letter to the Rev. Dr. Colman, of Boston.

Edwards, J. (1974). The works of Jonathan Edwards (Vol. 1, p. 344). Banner of Truth Trust.

[after reading about the revival of 1735]

Psalms 119:126 (KJV)
It is time for thee, Lord, to work: for they have made void thy law.

Discussion and prayer followed.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

Matthew:

It seems to me that there are a couple of things going on here: Puritan attempts to discern God's intent from difficult providences (that's a large and challenging topic); and what our Lord meant in Luke 13. I'll just focus on the latter point for now.

It seems to me rather clear that our Lord in Luke 13 is rebuking those who interpreted two frowning providences as indicating a particular judgment on those who suffered such. Apparently, there were those who observed Pilate's slaughter of Galileans and the eighteen who perished when the Siloam tower fell and concluded that the victims of such merited some particular judgment. Jesus points them away from looking at the victims of those incidences as especially worthy of judgment and points them to themselves instead, warning them, "unless you repent you will all likewise perish."

Yes, those in both cases had perished, and all such comes, because we've sinned (had we not there would be no human death). But, our Lord clearly says in both cases, that the decedents were not "worse sinners than all others" and that disasters should remind us all that, in and of ourselves (apart from and outside of Christ), the very best of us, whoever that may be, are nothing but sinners worthy of death. Disaster should not prompt me to think, in other words, what did those who suffered such do to elicit it? Rather, when I see judgment falling on others, I should realize that I am a sinner who must repent of my sins or judgment will come on me.

So, yes, all disaster is an occasion to remember that we are all sinners worthy of death and that, apart from the grace of God in Christ, deserve judgment. Maybe this is your point, Matthew, though I am unsure about your precise point here.

Peace,
Alan

 

[earl40]

I know Jesus is God, but he saw 18 being killed by a falling tower as judgment.
Vincent saw the fires as judgment.
Mead saw the plague as judgment.

What should our disposition be towards Catastrophic events in this light?

I believe a disposition of charity is what we to ought to convey. I would assume many were repentant sinners who perished in the fires or plague, and those events were the means God used to call them to glory.

 

[Afterthought]

Events like these do not happen by accident. God is always behind their working providentially, but Christ saw God’s judgment in the tower that fell on 18 people.

Sounds to me you might want to make some distinctions. Here are my thoughts.

1) There is a distinction between judgment for an individual's sins and judgment for a people's sins. In the latter, one cannot conclude that those taken up in the judgment are being judged individually: there may be righteous persons who are harmed or killed, along with wicked persons. It sounds to me like you are speaking of judgment on a people, yes? This seems to me to be consistent with not viewing the individuals who fall under such judgment as being worse sinners than others, since no inviduals are considered when one views the judgment.

2) There is a distinction between a catastrophic event that happens to others, and a catastrophic event that happens to oneself. For catastrophic events that happen to others, we should examine ourselves. For catastrophic events that happen to ourselves, we should examine ourselves also, since it may be chastisement.

3) There is a distinction between chastisement, judgment, and trial of graces. One catastrophic event can be different things for the individuals involved. Could it also be different things for the people group that those individuals were a part of?

4) That leads me to this thought: Should we distinguish between catastrophic events that are judgments and catastrophic events that may be for other purposes? Just like for individuals, a catastrophic event may occur for other reasons than judgment. If we do not make this distinction, then that means a truly righteous nation will never have a catastrophic event happen to it. Is that something we can say is true?

5) Can we say from Scripture that catastrophic events only happen on account of sin? If not, then more information is needed to determine whether a catastrophic event should be viewed as a judgment, such as self-examination revealing severe sins (idolatry, sabbath breaking, etc.) in the people?

6) Obviously, catastrophic events happen because of sin in general, so God is not unjust in giving men less than their sins deserve.

 

[arapahoepark]

So is all catastrophe a jidgment upon a specific sin or group of sinners? That is the question.

 

[Dachaser]

And can we even be sure that the Lord is using things such as Hurricanes/Tornados/earthquakes all of the time as His agents of judgment, as both wicked and redeemed experience losses, even death, so could they not also be seen as being due to this being a fallen world and bad storms happen?

 

[Joshua]

Barring divine revelation stating specific reasons for an affliction sent, we are simply not privy to God's workings beyond the requisite use to be made of for any affliction. To read providence in such a way that we tell others "such and such" is why this happened is to think we have knowledge of the secret things which belong to the Lord our God. No, what we have is enough, and that is that which is revealed, namely, to do all the works of the law.

What we ought to do, then, is to reflect upon afflictions (whether our own, or others), make use of them by taking inventory of our own lives, pray for those who are suffering under them, and determine how we can meditate on the occurrences, engaging in that difficult but most salutary work, of self-examination. The revealed things, the Law, will give us plenty work to do, such that we need not expend our efforts on prying into God's secret work.

Now, there may be a particular burden of conscience for a particular sin on an individual who is under affliction. It certainly is not unlawful for that individual to look at an affliction and note that it is likely for them to make a use in bringing to mind that sin with which they have not been dealing. The error would be for someone to tell that individual it is indeed for that reason, definitively. Regardless of whether the affliction is for that particular sin or not, does that in any way lessen the responsibility to acknowledge, confess, forsake, and mortify that sin?! Of course not.

In events of large scale destruction wrought by the providence of God, it is perfectly reasonable -as I believe Raymond earlier intimated- to infer that God is exacting judgment on a people, because these are the punishments that sin brings in this life. We see uses made like this for many of the English Puritans, etc. But sometimes the Lord sends a different kind of judgment upon a nation that has nothing to do with external destruction. For example, here in the United States, the culture wholesale thinks nothing ill of sexual perversion (whether heterosexual or homosexual). Is that not a judgment of God? Is it no judgment of God that we have been wholly given over to all manner of wickedness with little to no recognition of the sinfulness of our age, which things are clearly wrong even by light of nature? I say, it is. It is a more subtle judgment that is testimony to being abandoned by God and, perhaps, indication of a famine of His Word being wrought upon a people (Amos 8).

Afflictions sent by God are not bound to a single purpose. For the elect, it is to their good. For the reprobate, it is to their judgment. This is the same with preaching. Let us each make use of them accordingly.

 

[Alan D. Strange]

With respect to this thread, my wife and I were talking earlier of other strong hurricanes in formation as well as the recent earthquake in Mexico (the most severe tremor there in a century). While we are unable to say that those in the path of such hurricanes or the victims of such an earthquake are "worse sinners" than those spared, we can say that our Christ-denying cultures clearly merit God's wrath and judgment, which, in the main, He mercifully withholds until the Last Day.

We further remarked that when such is observed, someone commonly retorts, "Well, for what sins are we being punished? For what sort of things do we need to repent as a society?" And we both agreed: what we don't need to repent of is far easier to enumerate than what we do need to repent of. And it begins in the church. We in the household of faith have so much of which to repent. Where does this leave the ungodly and unbelieving?

May God truly have mercy upon us and grant His people repentance and reformation. This is what the world needs more than anything from us. Not more "me-too-ism" and an echo of the world's agenda. May God be gracious to grant us repentance for our multitude of sins.

Peace,
Alan