God's Providence and Man's actions: A thought.

[SoldierOfTheRock]

I think many of us would agree that this thing of God's providence, or the view that God controls everything that happens is quite hard to understand. On one hand it makes perfect sense because to a logical person God cannnot control anything without controling all things.

Yet there are certain questions that come to mind, such as sin. How can God be in complete control over all men (their thoughts and actions) and still judge them? If it were not for Gen 50:20 and Romans 9 I think I would have a hard time proving such an antinomy. A verse that is normally used against us would be James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"

James 1:13 to me does not create a problem, becuase it says nothing about what God controls and what he does not, and upon further reading, as in the next few verses it seems to explain a little more of this puzzle of providence.

James 1:13-15 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

Maybe I am not making much sense just yet, I do not have nearly as much understanding as most of you on the board, but thats why it is great to come here and read everyones articles. - I shall continue to explain what my thoughts are on this subject.

When I read James 1:13-15 I think about Gen 50:20 where Joseph's brother are asking that he not punish them for their evil actions so many years before. When Joseph replies:
Gen 50:20 "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; [but] God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as [it is] this day, to save much people alive."

So James would be 100% correct. We can not say that God tempted us to sin. If I were to kill someone I could not go to court and use the excuse that God made me do it, even if it were a reformed judge. Truly if I were to take a life then God was done with that life, but for me to say that God made me do it is completely idiotic, even in view of providence. For while God uses the actions of men to bring about His foreordained plan men do not have the same motive God has. When Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery they did it because they were jelous of him, they were not thinking as God was- to save many people.

Ok, I believe I am done rambleing. I just thought I would come here for some good old critiqueing. If anyone knows of a better way to explain such a thought then, by all mean post it. If I have erred in some way in my thinking, then I beg you to post that.

Thanks in advance,
Joshua

 

[LauridsenL]

There are many passages of Scripture, besides Gen 50:20 and Romans 9, that teach compatibilism -- i.e. that God is fully sovereign over all things without directly causing sin and without detracting from man's real guilt for sin. One clear example is found in Isaish 10 --

Isaiah 10:5-16 "[u:7873246e4b]Woe to Assyria, the rod of My anger And the staff in whose hands is My indignation, 6 I send it against a godless nation And commission it against the people of My fury[/u:7873246e4b] To capture booty and to seize plunder, And to trample them down like mud in the streets. 7 Yet it does not so intend, Nor does it plan so in its heart, But rather it is its purpose to destroy And to cut off many nations. 8 For it says, "Are not my princes all kings? 9 "Is not Calno like Carchemish, Or Hamath like Arpad, Or Samaria like Damascus? 10 "[u:7873246e4b]As my hand has reached to the kingdoms of the idols, Whose graven images were greater than those of Jerusalem and Samaria, 11 Shall I not do to Jerusalem and her images Just as I have done to Samaria and her idols?[/u:7873246e4b]" 12 So it will be that when the Lord has completed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem, He will say, "I will punish the fruit of the arrogant heart of the king of Assyria and the pomp of his haughtiness." 13 [u:7873246e4b]For he has said, "By the power of my hand and by my wisdom I did this, For I have understanding; And I removed the boundaries of the peoples And plundered their treasures, And like a mighty man I brought down their inhabitant[/u:7873246e4b]s, 14 And my hand reached to the riches of the peoples like a nest, And as one gathers abandoned eggs, I gathered all the earth; And there was not one that flapped its wing or opened its beak or chirped." 15 [u:7873246e4b]Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood. 16 Therefore the Lord, the GOD of hosts, will send a wasting disease among his stout warriors; And under his glory a fire will be kindled like a burning flame[/u:7873246e4b]. "

Here, God uses Assyria as a rod to punish rebellious Israel. The Assyrians, however, a notoriously ruthless nation, boast of their strength and ability to conquer Jerusalem, reasoning that it is their strength and will that made the difference, and have no idea that they are being used by God for His purposes. Thus, God is sovereingly using them, while they are willfuly and gleefully pillaging. And God then punishes the Assyrians in part precisely because they wrongfully ascribe to themselve the ability to will and act apart from God -- "Is the axe to boast itself over the one who chops with it? Is the saw to exalt itself over the one who wields it? That would be like a club wielding those who lift it, Or like a rod lifting him who is not wood." To show that the Assyrians had real guilt, despite the fact that God was sovereing over and used their sin, God punishes them by sending a wasting disease. Scripture abounds with similar examples.

In short, we believe in compatibilism because Scripture demands that we do so.

 

[Abd_Yesua_alMasih]

......... my brain hurts thinking about it. (I got confused so sorry if this takes it off topic a tiny bit)

So what we are discussing is it if God controls us like a rag doll and controls all our movements, or if God watches over us and we do things within his will and he 'pokes us about' when he needs to do something? A bit like a dog on a lead? (It can do wrong and go all over the place but in the end the master is in control)

 

[LauridsenL]

[quote:a0c38058c8]So what we are discussing is it if God controls us like a rag doll and controls all our movements, or if God watches over us and we do things within his will and he 'pokes us about' when he needs to do something? A bit like a dog on a lead? (It can do wrong and go all over the place but in the end the master is in control)[/quote:a0c38058c8]

I'm not sure that we can conceptualize it adequately because we are neither infinite nor omniscient. It definitely is not that God controls us like a rag doll or that we are robots. We really do make choices. But at that same time, God is -- mysteriously -- able to control and be soverign over our choices. Joseph's brothers acted wickedly by selling him into slavery; they really did it; they were guilty because of it. There's no sense from the text that God forced them against their will to act in the way they did. But in one and the same event, what they meant for evil, God intended for good. Similarly, in the Assyrian example from above or Paul Manata's example of Acts 2 (and Acts 4), the humans involved really made choices, were self-consiously aware that they were making choices, but were unaware that God had foreordained the events from before the foundation of the world.

This is mysterious and we shouldn't be afraid to recognize that we must approach God with a sense of mystery. As D.A. Carson said in a tape series I've listened to several times, the Bible mandates that we recognize the place of mystery in approaching God. E.g., in Job, God never does answer Job's questions -- He just tells Job that He's sovereign and that His knowledge and ways are beyond our ability to call His wisdom and decisions into question. That is not at all to say that everything about God or the Bible is mysterious or inexplicable.

I'll throw out one more thought, For what it's worth. I'm intrigued by chaos theory, which looks at the nature of seemingly chaotic, random events. One of the most amazing things that scientists have learned in their study of "chaos" is that, underneath the seeming chaos, lies an "eerie order" seemingly controlling and shaping the random/chaotic events. You're free to reject or ignore this - and I certainly am far from insisting on it -- but I wonder if God hasn't graciously allowed men, though their study of the chaos theory as part of the natural order, to get a small glimpse of his soverignty. To see that there although there really are seemingly random/chaotic events (e.g., people really do make choices and are not robots), but also that God sovereignly and mysteriously ("eerily") controls and guides and has His own purpose behind those choices and actions. Just a thought.

 

[Irishcat922]

I like the simplicity of the statement that God is completely soveriegn and man is a responsible creature(so to speak).

 

[Jabbok]

[quote:d0560eee96]So what we are discussing is it if God controls us like a rag doll and controls all our movements, or if God watches over us and we do things within his will and he 'pokes us about' when he needs to do something? A bit like a dog on a lead? (It can do wrong and go all over the place but in the end the master is in control)[/quote:d0560eee96]


None of the above. We're not rag dolls, puppets or dogs on a leash. We're clay.