God's Punishment

[cupotea]

A couple of days ago Matthew posted a thread (for the life of me I can't find it now) asking if we ever feel like God punishes us for our sins.

Well here's one. I said some things on MSN that I shouldn't have said, and the very next day my internet was cut off (that is, my roommate took my modem and the router won't work, so I have no internet). Isn't that "ironic"? And some of you don't think God has a sense of humor!

Ok you might be wondering how I'm posting here if I don't have the internet. I'm at the library at my school. Which means I should watch out--I used the word "God" in a sentence that wasn't trying to prove He doesn't exist, so I'm risking being hanged or beheaded or ripped apart by wild animals for the City of Toronto's amusement if someone sees it.

 

[Scott Bushey]

GS,
Is it a law in Canada that you cannot speak of God? I don't quite get it???

 

[cupotea]

Scott:

Prettymuch! Actually, it's just stupid Toronto.

However, part of me is just satisfied in constantly insulting Toronto. It isn't THAT bad... I guess. I mean, I love my church. It doesn't even have a gay flag over the door! Yes, that's what makes a church conservative! Not having a gay flag on it! I didn't even know there was gay flag until I moved here. But all of the U of T buildings have gay flags drawn on the sidewalks in front of them. There's a relatively conservative college in U of T, and I guess Gay Pride people came and painted all over it. So it has the flag, too, and drawings of male stick figures holding hands.

I sound like I just have a problem with gay people or something. But it doesn't stop there!

I take mostly history classes, so of course for them we read old texts. Then we discuss those texts in the tutorials. Back in the day, way back (many Torontonians can't believe this) people used to believe in God. So they'd write about Him, and how wonderful it is to have faith in Him. So the tutorials simply are a place to joke about how stupid Christians *were*. And how their ideas about the world were ridiculous, and thank goodness *we* don't feel that way anymore. Thank goodness this is the 21st century where we're more modern, and smarter than *those people*. For example, someone in my religion class noted the other day that the New Testament is really anti-Semitic. "This stupid book is the cause of the Holocaust!!" she shreeked.

 

[RamistThomist]

I ask her two things:
1) How so?
2) Why was the Holocaust wrong?
Let her hang herself with the answer

 

[RamistThomist]

Didn't mean to turn this into an apologetics thread

 

[SmokingFlax]

Yeah those NT Jews are really anti-Semetic.

 

[cupotea]

Haha, yeah, luckily, the person sitting beside her pointed out that she was being an idiot.

 

[SmokingFlax]

oh well...that never stopped anyone before.

 

[cupotea]

Indeed! And she is just one example of the bright young minds at U of T...

 

[cupotea]

But anyway.. my point was the irony of the situation.. Sin then a related punishment. Can't think of any examples right now, but similar things have happened before. Pretty ironic/neat/weird, eh? What d'y'all think?

 

[pastorway]

honestly, I think we confuse consequences with punishment. Maybe semantics, but God does not punish His children (Rom 8:1), He disciplines them (Heb 12). Punishment is punitive, discipline (chastisement) is for the purpose of training and discipling. There is a difference.

Phillip

 

[cupotea]

Yeah, good point. His discipline does awe me!

 

[Ianterrell]

Phillip,

I think that the semantic objection that punishment is less appropriate than discipline is wanting. If I tell a child I am going to disciipline or chastise him or her as a result of her wrong doing then it is highly quibblesome to object to the use of punishment.

 

[Peter]

I understand what Pastor Way is saying, and actually it is quite profound. To use the word punish or punishment is fine, though it maybe deceiving. To "punish" implies to recompense, and our recompense has already been paid in full.

 

[pastorway]

Exactly!

Tetelestai - It is Finished, once for all!

There is therefore now no condemnation....etc etc

There is a big difference between punishment and discipline. One pays back an offender, or makes him pay what is owed due to the wrong. The other rebukes, instructs, and trains so that the sin/wrong behavior might be avoided in the future.

In preaching on the role of parents in the Christian home by the way, we studied Hebrews 12 and how God disciplines His children. I do not believe that parents should punish their children! They should discipline them - use the opportunity for rebuke and training!!

The confusion may come in that we often fail to understand the difference in concept between punishment and discipline. They are not the same.

punishment - "Retribution; A penalty imposed for wrongdoing; Any pain, suffering, or loss inflicted on a person because of a crime or offense"

discipline - "Training expected to produce a specific character or pattern of behavior; To train by instruction and practice, especially to teach self-control ; To teach"

Christ was punished for us and paid the price for our sin in full. So now we are not condemned when we sin, but we are lovingly and firmly chastised (disciplined).

Phillip

 

[SmokingFlax]

Ok Pastor Way (or anyone) I get the distinction -but what about those times when (you're) being disciplined for something but you don't know really what it is for?
Then you go through a deep and prayerful soulsearching to find what it is you should learn and/or repent from only to find that (you're) overwhelmed by how utterly sinful EVERYTHING you do is compared to our Lord...so though it is a discipline the purpose remains beyond comprehension.

Am I the only one who has gone through such a bewildering season (or two) -tell me it isn't so. I still don't know the purpose of some disciplines I've gone through.

[Edited on 7-12-2004 by SmokingFlax]

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

What about when besetting sins get the best of your for, say, a whole month without let up? And you keep giving into them? I "feel" (you knowhow feelings are) overwhelmed this month to the point I think the devil is on my back (like hanging out there sipping tea). And I think the attacks are due to God's "good" providences that seem to be coming around the corner. Everytime I get "close" to something good I get swalled with Tsunami's of Satan's wiles.

How much do you think that "causes" God's chastisement?

 

[turmeric]

Maybe you are just seeing sin more clearly than the rest of us.

 

[C. Matthew McMahon]

Meg, I don't think its that one person "sees" mroe clearly than another here, but rather that the circumstacne causes us to define the experience a little better as to what God may be doing.

I think we see our own sins more clearly than others most of the time (although every now and again we need Nathan to tell David a thing or two).

Other thoughts?

 

[cupotea]

Hey being punished/disciplined is also sort of a reminder that God is watching. I mean, when I sinned in saying unChristian things, I knew I was sinning, and I thought, 'Wow, I'm sinning. I should stop.' And the next day, when the net was taken away it was like God was saying, 'Yeah, you should, and clearly you won't unless I stop you.' Anyway, so it reminded me that God is always watching, and that He is better at protecting me from sin than I am!