Good news for a local PCA church, Grape Juice to Wine in Lord's Supper

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I wonder. Back then there were no freezers and no canning facilities. If you grew grapes you could make wine, vinegar, and raisins. Passover was in spring long after harvest. Grape juice was not possible. When the confessions were written and the Reformers wrote their commentaries, it was the same way.

I would guess that right after they harvested grapes it was an annual treat to have fresh sweet juice. I would think that maybe they would even have had it at church gatherings for a couple sundays as long as the harvest lasted. In that heat, it would not keep long at all. Jesus was the vine, it was the fruit of the vine, the blood of the vine, fresh or fermented.

Grant- OF COURSE I don't think anybody here is pro abortion. Yikes, that is not even up for discussion. I was merely referring to the juice as wine in embryonic beginning stages. Which it is! That's all. Please don't extrapolate your conclusion.
 
By the way, in my very early charismatic college days I remember a communion with coke and potato chips at somebody's house. By the reasoning some give about the elements, that was basic staple food in those days. I am glad the Lord is so gracious and patient with all of us as we are gradually sanctified. I wish people could happily partake today, even if they don't think the Lord's supper is perfect.
 
Grant- OF COURSE I don't think anybody here is pro abortion. Yikes, that is not even up for discussion. I was merely referring to the juice as wine in embryonic beginning stages. Which it is! That's all. Please don't extrapolate your conclusion.
Lynnie,

To be fair, you drew the comparison between the pro-abortion view (on embryos) and wine-only advocates not I.

It seems to me like saying the early clump of cells isn't a baby, its just an unformed embryo, and we say no, from the moment of conception it is a baby. Well, that juice is unformed wine.
:detective:
 
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Fermentation begins when you crush grapes. This was by our Lord's design. Putting man-made "improvements" on an element of worship leads to the slippery road of idolatry. Our Lord picked a source that immediately began to ferment and turn into wine when crushed.
 
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hmmm I didn't read him that way at all. I'm not sure it is fair.
Brandon it was right here that I was referring to:

It seems to me like saying the early clump of cells isn't a baby, its just an unformed embryo, and we say no, from the moment of conception it is a baby. Well, that juice is unformed wine.

Also, me thinks Lynnie is a "she";).
 
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Grant - thanks I sometimes look at the avatars and get mixed up who is who. My point is that the comparison didn't require the conclusion which you drew:

Likening the wine only advocates (this is a confessional Board) to those who have a murderous and unbiblical view on conception and abortion is not biblical and further is an invalid emotional comparison that I hope will be reconsidered.

A careful charitable reading is owed (confessional board like you say), and it seems (to me) misconstruing of words to insist your reading was fair.
 
Grant - thanks I sometimes look at the avatars and get mixed up who is who. My point is that the comparison didn't require the conclusion which you drew:



A careful charitable reading is owed (confessional board like you say), and it seems (to me) misconstruing of words to insist your reading was fair.
I am willing to apologize if my responses have been uncharitable or unfair, however I do not think they have been. Moderators are welcome to weigh in. If unfairness is decided, then I would gladly apologize and delete the accused post.
 
Fair enough Grant. (with much love). For what it's worth I think one shared cup of wine is the ideal, but unity is the ideal as well - so it gets complicated. My 10 year old loves the wine, but my 12 nearly choked the first time she had it. We have an outer ring of juice, and I'm grateful for it (even if I'm encouraging her to learn to love the wine at the same time)
 
Fair enough Grant. (with much love). For what it's worth I think one shared cup of wine is the ideal, but unity is the ideal as well - so it gets complicated. My 10 year old loves the wine, but my 12 nearly choked the first time she had it. We have an outer ring of juice, and I'm grateful for it (even if I'm encouraging her to learn to love the wine at the same time)
Like @Romans922 has said, a LARGE piece of this discussion is we all take the SAME bread and the SAME wine.

The clear reading of our governing documents is not "split tray" or "grape juice" as a final method.
 
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Fermentation begins when you crush grapes. This was by our Lord's design. Putting man-made "improvements" on an element of worship leads to the slippery road of idolatry. Our Lord picked a source that immediately began to ferment and turn into wine when you crushed it.

Huh? If fermentation begins when the grapes are crushed, then the sweet juice is the beginning of fermentation. In fact, if your tiny cup of grape juice has been sitting in a back room for a couple hours since it was prepared before the church service, it undoubtedly has a few yeast cells operating in fermentation already, even if it still tastes like juice. To refuse to take it because it isn't wine, well, Romans 15 and it is your conscience. But it isn't a very scientific position.

Bacterial growth is exponential. A nuclear bomb goes from one atom splitting to a mushroom cloud in only 80 generations of atoms splitting. A tiny cut on your leg can go to sepsis and death in 24 hours (bacteria split in 20 minutes). My optometrist died that way, and that fast. Your own little cup of juice is already starting to ferment if exposed to air even if you don't taste it yet. This should be a non issue if you ask me. The real problem is Christians against any alcohol ever , but that's another subject.
 
A careful charitable reading is owed (confessional board like you say), and it seems (to me) misconstruing of words to insist your reading was fair.

Brandon,

I stated the above to make clear that the historic reformed confessions (even the baptist ones) use the word "Wine"; therefore, advocating for using wine as the element in the Lord's Supper is technically the confessional view.:detective:
 
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Like @Romans922 has said a LARGE piece of this discussion is we all take the SAME bread and the SAME cup.

Sure, but I don't agree the split cup violates that principle necessarily. Similarly think the bread can be baked as multiple loaves, and that those loaves might have slight variations in their ingredients. Similarly I don't think all of the wine has to be poured from the same bottle, or even be the same type of wine (Although Francis Ford Coppola Diamond Collection Claret would be best).

I do agree that good red wine is the best and simplest way presenting the element, but not if it means certain worshippers abstain or participate as an unhappy minority. Whatever wine it is, it should make the heart glad :). There is a way of getting everyone to drink the same type of wine that would make it a constant reminder of disunity rather than unity.
 
Huh? If fermentation begins when the grapes are crushed, then the sweet juice is the beginning of fermentation. In fact, if your tiny cup of grape juice has been sitting in a back room for a couple hours since it was prepared before the church service, it undoubtedly has a few yeast cells operating in fermentation already, even if it still tastes like juice.

No because it has been pasteurized. In theory it might after a VERY long time, due to reincorporation of bacteria from the environment (maybe). However you would be much more likely to get vinegar instead of wine. The fermentation of un-pasteurized grapes does occur once you start to crush. Yeast on the exterior is mixed with sugars on the interior and the "all you can eat" fermentation buffet begins.

Lynnie,

I have had formal education in the process of pasteurization and auditing such processes, so I ask for a least a little credit with regard to the science. (saying the qualifications as brief as I can). It's my job.:detective:
 
Sure, but I don't agree the split cup violates that principle necessarily.

That's fine, but split "Tray" does not have support from the bible's account of the LS. Split tray does not have support from the BCO or Westminster Standards. As long as that is admitted I have no quibble.
 
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Huh? If fermentation begins when the grapes are crushed, then the sweet juice is the beginning of fermentation. In fact, if your tiny cup of grape juice has been sitting in a back room for a couple hours since it was prepared before the church service, it undoubtedly has a few yeast cells operating in fermentation already, even if it still tastes like juice. To refuse to take it because it isn't wine, well, Romans 15 and it is your conscience. But it isn't a very scientific position.

Bacterial growth is exponential. A nuclear bomb goes from one atom splitting to a mushroom cloud in only 80 generations of atoms splitting. A tiny cut on your leg can go to sepsis and death in 24 hours (bacteria split in 20 minutes). My optometrist died that way, and that fast. Your own little cup of juice is already starting to ferment if exposed to air even if you don't taste it yet. This should be a non issue if you ask me. The real problem is Christians against any alcohol ever , but that's another subject.

Lynnie,

I'd encourage you to do your own research on this, if you'd like. Though from my research, speaking as factually as I can about grape juice without an opinion of it. Grape juice (as we think of it like Welch's) is a result of an invention in 1862 of pasteurization. Thomas Welch applied pasteurization to grapes (and its juice) in 1869. What pasteurization did for grapes (and its juice) was essentially not allow the fermentation process to start. Which is why if you leave today's Welch's grape juice out, it is not going to ferment.

So I believe it is one thing to talk about a grape being crushed, and a totally different thing to talk about 2019 grape juice. Grape juice as we know it today did not exist prior to 1869. [This is not to speak of whether or not we should use wine/grape juice today, just trying to stick to the facts].
 
Lynnie,

I'd encourage you to do your own research on this, if you'd like. Though from my research, speaking as factually as I can about grape juice without an opinion of it. Grape juice (as we think of it like Welch's) is a result of an invention in 1862 of pasteurization. Thomas Welch applied pasteurization to grapes (and its juice) in 1869. What pasteurization did for grapes (and its juice) was essentially not allow the fermentation process to start. Which is why if you leave today's Welch's grape juice out, it is not going to ferment.

So I believe it is one thing to talk about a grape being crushed, and a totally different thing to talk about 2019 grape juice. Grape juice as we know it today did not exist prior to 1869. [This is not to speak of whether or not we should use wine/grape juice today, just trying to stick to the facts].

No, there are ambient yeasts everywhere in the air. In a half hour of that tray sitting up front it has yeast and has started to ferment. What you want is the right sort of yeast to make wine, but any yeast will affect it. Talk to any ex jailbird who snuck juice back to his cell to try and ferment it. But I don't feel like arguing this further. I am horrified at the thought of people who refuse to take communion because it is juice. But never mind, God calls us to forbear with the conscience of others.
 
Grant- with all due respect I was a botany major and loved mycology (fungi). They are everywhere. What matters is getting the right sort of fungus for bread or wine. But you can't avoid them and they WILL be in any food left sitting out.
 
I am horrified at the thought of people who refuse to take communion because it is juice. But never mind, God calls us to forbear with the conscience of others.

I hope I have not offended you and I have appreciated your input. My "legal age to buy alcohol" example is the best comparison I have.

P.S. Glad to know a fellow science major. My degree is in chemistry.
 
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Split tray does not have support from the BCO or Westminster Standards. As long as that is admitted I have no quibble.

There is no tray to be found whether split or whole in the BCO, Westminster, or the Bible. That is granted. The Confession says wine and the cup, which is why I said above common cup of wine is clearly the confessional choice to promote.
 
Grant- with all due respect I was a botany major and loved mycology (fungi). They are everywhere. What matters is getting the right sort of fungus for bread or wine. But you can't avoid them and they WILL be in any food left sitting out.
Pasteurized Grape juice, even if left out for 1/2 hour is not fermented grape juice. If it was Welch's would not have made it this long.;)
 
There is no tray to be found whether split or whole in the BCO, Westminster, or the Bible. That is granted. The Confession says wine and the cup, which is why I said above common cup of wine is clearly the confessional choice to promote.
Brandon,

I know you know what I am getting at. You admitted yourself to believing wine is the element. I am not speaking about how to properly distribute the element. I speaking about the element. There is no support or evidence of 2 different elements being presented as the blood in the LS in any of our authoritative documents. I really don't get the over complication. "Bread" and "Wine".
 
The addition of Grape Juice into the shaping of The Lord's Supper in the Church was nothing more than a cultural pressure (invasion) that many gave into.

Just because it is not a fresh cultural pressure, does not make the above any less true. Modern examples are adding rock bands, changing understandings of sexuality in society. How many are willing to admit that the grape juice invasion was a cultural pressure? The addition of un-fermented grape juice certainly was not a reforming to the scriptures.

As @Pergamum stated in another thread. Here in America we really have no excuse not to be using wine.

I think the addition of grape juice shows compassion for recovering alcoholics and people with medical conditions who can't have wine. We have a greater scientific understanding of these medical issues now than past generations did. So, split-tray is a good idea.

As for the one-cup idea: we also have a greater understanding of bacteria than the ancients did. Individual cups are a far, far better idea - especially during cold and flu season, but for other medical reasons, as well. No backwash!
 
"and to take and break the bread, to take the cup, and (they communicating also themselves) to give both to the communicants"

I agree with you. I think it's dead simple, but that doesn't mean uncomplicated. I would like to see the common cup of wine (weekly) come back into practice, but I'm afraid if I insisted upon it, I would be communing with myself most weeks. :candle:

What the sign points me to helps me not to be too caught up in what the sign is made out of. Bread (check) Wine (check) Drinking into one Spirit (big check)
 
Well just know that I have never abstained on the sole fact of only grape juice being offered.

P.S. I hope I have not offended you and I have appreciated your input. My "legal age to buy alcohol" example is the best comparison I have.

P.P.S. Glad to know a fellow science major. My degree is in chemistry.
I started out a chem major. Second year in organic I almost blew up the lab. They had to evacuate everybody. Turned out I had been given equipment with a hairline fracture and the prof told the class next day it wasnt my fault. They were all mad at me. Ptsd, ended up in botany, but I loved it.
 
I started out a chem major. Second year in organic I almost blew up the lab. They had to evacuate everybody. Turned out I had been given equipment with a hairline fracture and the prof told the class next day it wasnt my fault. They were all mad at me. Ptsd, ended up in botany, but I loved it.

Let me guess, you were trying to make grape juice weren't you?:rofl:
 
What the sign points me to helps me not to be too caught up in what the sign is made out of.

Not quite for me, at least not with grape juice. And I don't think I am being "too" caught up. I am simply desiring to defend the confession's use of "wine" and some solid reasoning for those who wish to see grape juice excommunicated. The components & characteristics of the elements take part in the reality pointing as well. Meditating on the below components & characteristics of wine helps us to grasp specific components & characteristics of the reality of the work of Christ.

There are things true of wine that point us to aspects of the reality, which grape juice is straight up missing:tumbleweed::

1. Bitterness & Sweetness - The bitterness of what Christ endured (as you mentioned with your own child, there is a sense of pain in the drink). The wrath of God. The sweetness of salvation and reconciliation to God. The sweetness of victory.

2. Cleansing & Healing - The cleansing power of his blood (alcohol cleans). Likewise, the power to fight off infection (the corruption of our flesh).

3. A New Creation - Us being made a "new" creation after having bones crushed (crushing & fermentation makes regular juice something new) and also being made by that same work (bone breaking Holy Spirit work) to rejoice (wine brings joy to the heart). Psalm 51 (great to sing for communion in my opinion) Specifically Psalm 51:8 : "Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice." - NKJV
You see juice is already inside the corrupt grape (corrupt man), but once it is crushed (our flesh in and out) it is turned into something NEW.

These truths are beautiful and while they can still be preached over the juice they are distastefully missing from that sweet 100% Welch's concentrate. All this of course with the acknowledgment that we need the Holy Spirit in all things.:cheers:
:detective:

P.S. Even from a practical standpoint using “One Cup(s)” that all drink out of solves contamination issues as well.
 
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