Good news for a local PCA church, Grape Juice to Wine in Lord's Supper

[littlepeople]

Grant, those are interesting points to be sure, but they go beyond what is plain, and I wouldn't rest my case for wine/juice upon them. The power is in the substance of the thing signified, not the sign itself. Whether we interpret wine as "fruit of the vine" or "fermented red wine of a certain ABV", the purpose it to communicate the power of Jesus sacrifice. I know that we don't disagree there. I'll spend some more time considering the reasons you mentioned, but I'm not presently convinced that these dictate our use of one or the other.

 

[hammondjones]

3. A New Creation -

I like that. You can put new grape juice in old grape juice skins.

 

[Grant]

I like that. You can put new grape juice in old grape juice skins.

Excuse my density. Are you giving a complement to my point, or are you being sarcastic, Or both?

 

[Grant]

Grant, those are interesting points to be sure, but they go beyond what is plain, and I wouldn't rest my case for wine/juice upon them. The power is in the substance of the thing signified, not the sign itself. Whether we interpret wine as "fruit of the vine" or "fermented red wine of a certain ABV", the purpose it to communicate the power of Jesus sacrifice. I know that we don't disagree there. I'll spend some more time considering the reasons you mentioned, but I'm not presently convinced that these dictate our use of one or the other.

If you get time, listen to Adam’s sermon that I linked in Post # 21

https://www.puritanboard.com/thread...e-to-wine-in-lords-supper.97779/#post-1195113

If my memory serves me well, I remember Pastor P drawing some similar points as well. And your right in that we agree the reality is superior to the sign.

 

[littlepeople]

I'm downloading it now. Thanks Grant!

 

[Grant]

I'm downloading it now. Thanks Grant!

Thanks for the helpful discussion.

 

[hammondjones]

Excuse my density. Are you giving a complement to my point, or are you being sarcastic, Or both?

I'm not being sarcastic, rather sincere. I think it is a good point. And as a further comment, as you mentioned, wine is an apt representation of the new creation in a way that grape juice wouldn't be, as wine requires a new container. Something like, "The old can't contain the new". I'm not saying it makes sense outside my head. We can move along.

 

[Grant]

I'm not being sarcastic, rather sincere. I think it is a good point. And as a further comment, as you mentioned, wine is an apt representation of the new creation in a way that grape juice wouldn't be, as wine requires a new container. Something like, "The old can't contain the new". I'm not saying it makes sense outside my head. We can move along.

I see, my apologies. Further I agree with your side point and connection fully. Thanks for adding, as that had not crossed my mind.

 

[hammondjones]

I see, my apologies.

Not at all, Mr. Jones. ~ Mr. Jones

 

[timfost]

Not quite for me, at least not with grape juice. And I don't think I am being "too" caught up. I am simply desiring to defend the confession's use of "wine" and some solid reasoning for those who wish to see grape juice excommunicated. The components & characteristics of the elements take part in the reality pointing as well. Meditating on the below components & characteristics of wine helps us to grasp specific components & characteristics of the reality of the work of Christ.

There are things true of wine that point us to aspects of the reality, which grape juice is straight up missing:

1. Bitterness & Sweetness - The bitterness of what Christ endured (as you mentioned with your own child, there is a sense of pain in the drink). The wrath of God. The sweetness of salvation and reconciliation to God. The sweetness of victory.

2. Cleansing & Healing - The cleansing power of his blood (alcohol cleans). Likewise, the power to fight off infection (the corruption of our flesh).

3. A New Creation - Us being made a "new" creation after having bones crushed (crushing & fermentation makes regular juice something new) and also being made by that same work (bone breaking Holy Spirit work) to rejoice (wine brings joy to the heart). Psalm 51 (great to sing for communion in my opinion) Specifically Psalm 51:8 : "Make me hear joy and gladness, That the bones You have broken may rejoice." - NKJV
You see juice is already inside the corrupt grape (corrupt man), but once it is crushed (our flesh in and out) it is turned into something NEW.

These truths are beautiful and while they can still be preached over the juice they are distastefully missing from that sweet 100% Welch's concentrate. All this of course with the acknowledgment that we need the Holy Spirit in all things.


P.S. And now I have a potential Sabbath School lesson outline.

Grant,

I think you look too much into symbolism here. It starts to get both subjective and speculative.

Bottom line: bread and wine would have been the most common staple foods present at each meal. NT sacraments are superior to old, in part, because of their simplicity. Painful and bloody circumcision was replaced with water baptism. Passover with the lamb (expensive, not a staple food in everyday diet) was replaced with the most common elements of the usual meal.

Biblical wine would have normally been fermented since that was the only way to preserve it, especially at the time of Passover. Does that mean that the fruit of the vine was forbidden until so much time fermenting? I think this misses the point.

BTW, I'm glad your church switched to wine. I'm not saying these things to detract from that! I just want them to be in perspective.

 

[Grant]

Grant,

I think you look too much into symbolism here. It starts to get both subjective and speculative.

Bottom line: bread and wine would have been the most common staple foods present at each meal. NT sacraments are superior to old, in part, because of their simplicity. Painful and bloody circumcision was replaced with water baptism. Passover with the lamb (expensive, not a staple food in everyday diet) was replaced with the most common elements of the usual meal.

Biblical wine would have normally been fermented since that was the only way to preserve it, especially at the time of Passover. Does that mean that the fruit of the vine was forbidden until so much time fermenting? I think this misses the point.

BTW, I'm glad your church switched to wine. I'm not saying these things to detract from that! I just want them to be in perspective.

Tim,

Thanks for weighing in. The points I made are not original to me. I have read similar explanations in reformed commentaries and in modern day reformed sermons. I know there is often a temptation to read too much into a plain meaning, but there is more to wine than it just being the most common liquid in my book. Further, I too am still glad of the change, even if to split tray. My pastor faithfully preached that wine is the proper element. The session and congregation are making a step in the right direction on this matter and oh how beautiful it is to witness and be a part of a body willing to be shaped by the word.

P.S. Admittedly #2 would be the biggest stretch. Even if you think all points invalid, both of our confessions say “wine”.

P.P.S. I have also heard some great reformed symbolism expressed towards communion bread (both leavened and unleavened for that matter).

 

[Kinghezy]

If fermentation begins when the grapes are crushed, then the sweet juice is the beginning of fermentation. In fact, if your tiny cup of grape juice has been sitting in a back room for a couple hours since it was prepared before the church service, it undoubtedly has a few yeast cells operating in fermentation already, even if it still tastes like juice. To refuse to take it because it isn't wine, well, Romans 15 and it is your conscience. But it isn't a very scientific position.

Is this perhaps the continuum fallacy? From an article (only using to pull out this example), an example how you can throw doubt between "beard" and "beardless" by this reasoning:

One may throw doubt on the reality of a beard by a process beginning by asking whether a man with one hair on his chin has a beard. The answer is clearly 'No.' Then one may ask whether with two hairs on his chin a man has a beard. Again the answer must be 'No.' So again with 'three,' 'four,' etc. At no point can our opponent say 'Yes,' for if he has answered 'No' for, let us say, twenty-nine hairs, and 'Yes' for thirty, it is easy to pour scorn on the suggestion that the difference between twenty-nine and thirty hairs is the difference between not having and having a beard. Yet by this process of adding one hair at a time we can reach a number of hairs which would undoubtedly make up a beard. The trouble lies in the fact that the difference between a beard and no beard is like the difference between white and grey in the fact that one can pass by continuous steps from one to the other.​

 

[Scott Bushey]

Intent is everything.

 

[OPC'n]

I see no problem with the split tray. My sister is highly allergic to alcohol and cannot have even a sip of it. It’s good that her church has the split tray

 

[Grant]

I see no problem with the split tray. My sister is highly allergic to alcohol and cannot have even a sip of it. It’s good that her church has the split tray

Sarah, I’m glad your sister’s congregation has an accommodation for her. Allergic reactions are serious And I am glad to know that she has a way to still partake of the Lord’s supper. The disappointing part is that grape juice used in the Lord’s supper doesn’t find it current place in the church as a response to allergic reactions ( a valid exception in my opinion) , but rather from the idea that alcohol is the devil’s drink (Putting it briefly).

Side-note: (as she might like the flavor and other benefits of wine) they do make de-alcoholized fermented wine. Seems there is a slight flavor profile difference. However it retains a lot of the same qualities of wine since it is still fermented. Seems to be a market for it.

 

[Grant]

Here is one reformed source (Thomas Boston) outlining symbolism
with alcoholic wine and the blood of Christ. He also does this for the bread.

https://archive.org/stream/wholeworksoflate02bost#page/484/mode/2up


Also John a Lasco has an excellent description of the symbolism of the bread (which he says could also be said of the wine) in the 1555 version “Form and Method” . At the very least it may serve as edifying reading for your Lord’s Day observance.

P.S. I could not find an online version of the 1555 Form and Method or I would have shared the specific text .

 

[littlepeople]

Here is one reformed source (Thomas Boston) outlining symbolism
with alcoholic wine and the blood of Christ. He also does this for the bread.

LOL the first line speaking of bread: "lastly it is a sort of food that healthy people will never loath." - Obviously Thomas Boston didn't see 2019 coming.

I do think the symbolism is rich and interesting, even if a bit stretched in places.

 

[Grant]

I thought the below article (From a PCA Pastor) was well laid out. It seems the congregation still uses some juice; however, it is clear from the article that he sees symbolism in wine that the juice is wholly missing.

http://www.gpcweb.org/why-do-we-use-wine-in-communion-

 

[Logan]

Grant,
Biblical wine would have normally been fermented since that was the only way to preserve it, especially at the time of Passover. Does that mean that the fruit of the vine was forbidden until so much time fermenting? I think this misses the point.

I've felt compelled to say something similar to this in the past. Regardless of which side you come down on it bothers me to anachronistically read the confessions and commentaries in this way. It has been stated repeatedly that the confessions say "wine". Given the time period and the technology available, what else would it say?

Only if a confession/commentary said something like "only fermented wine is to be used" would that be valuable information to add. As it stands, quoting the confessions with respect to fermented vs unfermented is of very limited value and certainly shouldn't be a basis for calling someone unconfessional if they allow unfermented.

I do believe that fermented wine may very well be the proper element, yet I do find it at least gives me pause to consider that Scripture never uses the term for wine (which it uses elsewhere) with respect to the Supper, but rather "fruit of the vine".

I sympathize with the desire to be true to scripture. But if the process of pasteurization between squeezing and drinking disqualifies it from being acceptable, then I wonder why other processes in modern wine-making wouldn't also disqualify it. Perhaps this is overly analytical, but if it's merely the presence of alcohol that qualifies it, then I tend to agree that the point is really being missed.

 

[timfost]

I've felt compelled to say something similar to this in the past. Regardless of which side you come down on it bothers me to anachronistically read the confessions and commentaries in this way. It has been stated repeatedly that the confessions say "wine". Given the time period and the technology available, what else would it say?

Only if a confession/commentary said something like "only fermented wine is to be used" would that be valuable information to add. As it stands, quoting the confessions with respect to fermented vs unfermented is of very limited value and certainly shouldn't be a basis for calling someone unconfessional if they allow unfermented.

I do believe that fermented wine may very well be the proper element, yet I do find it at least gives me pause to consider that Scripture never uses the term for wine (which it uses elsewhere) with respect to the Supper, but rather "fruit of the vine".

I sympathize with the desire to be true to scripture. But if the process of pasteurization between squeezing and drinking disqualifies it from being acceptable, then I wonder why other processes in modern wine-making wouldn't also disqualify it. Perhaps this is overly analytical, but if it's merely the presence of alcohol that qualifies it, then I tend to agree that the point is really being missed.

Right on. Also, it should be noted that "sour wine" (vinegar) is also fermented, though not alcoholic. If we get too caught up in the process and composition, we're missing the point. Our church uses unleavened (gluten free) bread. I'm pretty sure that the first Lord's supper used unleavened bread, but I highly doubt it was gluten free.

If we get too caught up in these details, I fear that we turn a beautifully simple sacrament into a legalistic ritual.

 

[littlepeople]

Is this acceptable?

 

[Grant]

But if the process of pasteurization between squeezing and drinking disqualifies it from being acceptable, then I wonder why other processes in modern wine-making wouldn't also disqualify it. Perhaps this is overly analytical.

Logan, our Lord could have certainly brought about un-fermented grape juice if that’s what he wanted to have in the supper. But that’s not how he designed the fruit of the vine nor is that what is commanded in scripture to use. There are a few people on this thread that are trying to put an = between wine and grape juice. Not only do we not have an account from scripture, but even our culture recognizes a difference between wine and grape juice. It is regulated by different laws and it has different qualities. So from perspectives inside the church and outside the church they are certainly two different things. This still creates the problem of having three elements instead of two. Also, as previously shown in this thread through a couple links, the language of unfermented versus fermented, is not a unique discussion to the time since the invention of Welches grape juice. The confessions did not use this specific language “fruit of the vine“. They used the word wine specifically. Further the PCA BCO, which is a much more modern document, uses the word wine as does the OPC. I feel confident that they use the word wine because they believed that that was the proper biblical element. Wine and grape juice are not the same thing. This acknowledgment does not require one to be reformed or confessional or even a Christian. If anything proves that there’s not an = between Wine and grape juice it would be the split tray method.

There is a reason our Lord commanded wine. He could have commanded water, he could have commanded milk, but he commanded wine. He could have commanded fresh squeezed grape juice, but He didn’t. 1. Do you believe that wine is the actual element used in scripture? 2. Do you believe that wine is the proper element for today?

Surely our Lord was not handcuffed in his command because man’s technology had not evolved enough.

 

[Grant]

Is this acceptable?

I’m not exactly sure what that is. If you do not find this product acceptable please explain why?

 

[Logan]

There is a reason our Lord commanded wine. He could have commanded water, he could have commanded milk, but he commanded wine.

Are you certain? You might be convinced that is what is meant but be careful not to go beyond what Scripture states.

Edit: and please note that I say this as one who is just trying to be careful. I stated earlier that I believe wine may very well be the proper element, I just want to be cautious about dogmatism over something that really doesn't seem all that cut and dry.

 

[littlepeople]

I’m not exactly sure what that is. If you do not find this product acceptable please explain why?

It's wine Grant, but I'm just ribbing you. I don't think anyone here would use that even though it does tick all the boxes as far as fermentation goes.

 

[Grant]

Are you certain?

Yes, for a few reasons, but one is based on Paul’s account in Corinthians. I am very certain it was not pasteurized grape juice.

 

[timfost]

How about white wine in general?

 

[Grant]

It's wine Grant, but I'm just ribbing you. I don't think anyone here would use that even though it does tick all the boxes as far as fermentation goes.

Why would you not use it?

 

[timfost]

Why would you not use it?

All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful.

 

[littlepeople]

Why would you not use it?

Maybe you couldn't see the picture clearly - It's Blue Hawaiian flavored (and colored)