Gordon Clark on the Trinity

Sproul is talking about the revealed/secret wills of God. This issue is about the metaphysical faculty of the "will," i.e. the faculty of a being that makes decisions. In other words, we're talking about questions like, "Does each person of the Trinity have his own will (decision-making faculty)? Does Christ incarnate have two wills or one?"

It is a dangerous, serious error to speak of each person of the Trinity having his own will. I'm just interested in knowing if that's actually what Clark claims.
 
Sproul is talking about the revealed/secret wills of God. This issue is about the metaphysical faculty of the "will," i.e. the faculty of a being that makes decisions. In other words, we're talking about questions like, "Does each person of the Trinity have his own will (decision-making faculty)? Does Christ incarnate have two wills or one?"

It is a dangerous, serious error to speak of each person of the Trinity having his own will. I'm just interested in knowing if that's actually what Clark claims.

Ah, ok. Well now you and me both.
 
Clark's stated argument was for one will, not three - although it is indeed a logical implication of his three numerically minds/thinkers/thoughts view that there are three numerically distinct assentions (per Clark's own definitions, which I don't have time to sort out right now).

If there are three numerically distinct assentions, can one avoid three numerically wills? If so, then why wouldn't Clark have applied that reasoning to the question of if there are three numerically distinct thoughts, can one avoid three numerically distinct minds?

Did he think mind referred to person (yes) but will referred to nature? Is this distinction intelligible in the first place? IIs this distinction intelligible especially if assent is a function of will?

Then again, we're talking about late Clark - post age 70 - whose views drastically changed in many respects (mostly metaphysical: necessitarianism, occasionalism, Nestorianism, etc.).

Clark's argument is that (the same all applies with the Spirit):

1. Both "the Father is not the Son" and "the Son is not the Father" are true. "The Father is the Father" and "the Son is the Son" are likewise true.

2. Both the Father and Son know these truths due to omniscience.

3. Further, the Father alone can think, "I am the Father," and the Son alone can think, "I am the Son." These thoughts have the same "objective" meaning as the truths in #1, so omniscience is not denied, but they are subjectively different thoughts. Hence, different thoughts, thinkers, minds.

That's the main argument.
 
Thank you! That doesn't sound to me at all like one of the clearest books on the Trinity (claiming one will but three thinkers). But it tracks with what this other person is saying: Person = thinker = will. Yikes!
 
Thank you! That doesn't sound to me at all like one of the clearest books on the Trinity (claiming one will but three thinkers). But it tracks with what this other person is saying: Person = thinker = will. Yikes!

If you ask for his monotheistic principle, he will 85% likely tell you God is one because there is one definition of God which equally applies to the Father, Son, and Spirit. This is generic unity - unity according to genus - and begs the question, is the one God we worship a genus?

Clark said his views were editable in The Trinity. He wasn't super dogmatic, and in his book Clark Speaks from the Grave, he admits he never had much to do with the metaphysical. He is as correct able as any theologian, and I say this with some confidence, as I've read and enjoyed more by him than maybe just a handful of people. He was instrumental to my apologetic orientation.
 
This comes under discussion in the subordinationist debate as well as in understanding the covenant of redemption. The amount of confusion that is generated from it is needless, to say the least. A simple statement from John Owen clears up the problem and solves a wide range of issues: "The will of God as to the peculiar actings of the Father in this matter is the will of the Father, and the will of God with regard unto the peculiar actings of the Son is the will of the Son; not by a distinction of sundry wills, but by the distinct application of the same will unto its distinct acts in the persons of the Father and the Son."
 
This comes under discussion in the subordinationist debate as well as in understanding the covenant of redemption. The amount of confusion that is generated from it is needless, to say the least. A simple statement from John Owen clears up the problem and solves a wide range of issues: "The will of God as to the peculiar actings of the Father in this matter is the will of the Father, and the will of God with regard unto the peculiar actings of the Son is the will of the Son; not by a distinction of sundry wills, but by the distinct application of the same will unto its distinct acts in the persons of the Father and the Son."
That's an excellent quote, Matthew. Could I have the reference info?
 
OP, I see you are a fine connoisseur of X algorithm too
I assume you've been following the stuff with David Reece. Today he quoted a section from Loraine Boettner, Studies in Theology, pp. 106–107, which he used to show his understanding of divine simplicity and the Trinity having three centers of consciousness. I wasn't aware that Boettner had spoken this way.
 
I assume you've been following the stuff with David Reece. Today he quoted a section from Loraine Boettner, Studies in Theology, pp. 106–107, which he used to show his understanding of divine simplicity and the Trinity having three centers of consciousness. I wasn't aware that Boettner had spoken this way.
Me neither. Not good.
 
I assume you've been following the stuff with David Reece. Today he quoted a section from Loraine Boettner, Studies in Theology, pp. 106–107, which he used to show his understanding of divine simplicity and the Trinity having three centers of consciousness. I wasn't aware that Boettner had spoken this way.

It is clumsy language but sufficiently guarded to ward off tritheism: "We assert rather that within the one Divine 'substance' or 'essence' there are three mutually related yet distinct centers of knowledge, consciousness, love and will. 'Substance' or 'essence' is that which the different members of the Godhead have in common, that in which the attributes and powers of Deity inhere; 'person' is that in which they differ. Yet while there are three centers of knowledge, consciousness, love and will, each of the Persons possesses in toto the one indivisible, incorporeal substance of Deity in which the attributes and powers inhere, and therefore possesses the same infinite knowledge, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness and truth."

Available here for ease of access: https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/boettner_trinity.html

With this qualification that the person "possesses the same" thing, he has ensured that by "centre of consciousness" there should be no idea that the person has something different from the other person. The traditional language of "mode of subsistence" to describe a "person" would provide great assistance here. Thus Owen's language of each person modally willing with the same will would apply -- the one consciousness of the divine essence modally subsists in each person, such that each person can say, "I," "Thou," and "He," and do so in a particular order of subsisting.
 
You are probably right but I find this to be one of the worst explanations for the doctrine of the Trinity that I have ever read.
 
Oh I know that. I only meant this is a terrible way for an OPC theologian who ought to know better to speak.
 
Oh I know that. I only meant this is a terrible way for an OPC theologian who ought to know better to speak.

It's the doctrine of the Trinity. Some recognition that we all labour under the disadvantage of limitations of language is in order.
 
I’m not discounting that. My point is simply that Boettner’s language is at best problematic and at worst tritheistic. To postulate three wills in the Trinity is a denial of the historic understanding of divine simplicity and it is a great problem. I understand that when discussing the Trinity we are a 2 year old describing a combustion engine. But there is a correct way to use the words and a man that teaches doctrine ought to know better because it is their job to do so.
 
I’m not discounting that. My point is simply that Boettner’s language is at best problematic and at worst tritheistic. To postulate three wills in the Trinity is a denial of the historic understanding of divine simplicity and it is a great problem. I understand that when discussing the Trinity we are a 2 year old describing a combustion engine. But there is a correct way to use the words and a man that teaches doctrine ought to know better because it is their job to do so.

Did you catch his qualification? Here it is again, "each of the Persons possesses in toto the one indivisible, incorporeal substance of Deity in which the attributes and powers inhere." Tritheism averted.

What is the "correct way to use words" when one affirms that the Father sent the Son and the Son agreed to be sent by the Father? How does the Spirit know the things of God? I doubt anyone is going to be able to say this without stumbling over the limitations of human language.
 
That was such a great thread on the Trinity. David Reese managed to unite Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and Patriarchal Biblicists (not known for trinitarian precision). I've been meaning to repost something on Ernst Kantorowicz's The King's Two Bodies. Reese's version of the hypostatic union, despite being crudely Nestorian, also makes Jesus a corporation.
 
That was such a great thread on the Trinity. David Reese managed to unite Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, and Patriarchal Biblicists (not known for trinitarian precision). I've been meaning to repost something on Ernst Kantorowicz's The King's Two Bodies. Reese's version of the hypostatic union, despite being crudely Nestorian, also makes Jesus a corporation.

Something not substantial - his last name is Reece, not Reese. There is an RPCNA minister named David Reese and he is orthodox in his views on the Trinity, but when Mr. Reece's posts on the Trinity began, I saw people confusing them. So I just want to preserve our brother's good name.

But that said, to the substance of your post, it is stunning to see Mr. Reece's doubling down on his views on the Trinity in the face of reasoned, good, and historic opposition. Pretty much the whole Trinitarian world has criticized his views at this point. It was incredible to see him continue to dig in. May the Lord grant repentance.
 
Did you catch his qualification? Here it is again, "each of the Persons possesses in toto the one indivisible, incorporeal substance of Deity in which the attributes and powers inhere." Tritheism averted.

What is the "correct way to use words" when one affirms that the Father sent the Son and the Son agreed to be sent by the Father? How does the Spirit know the things of God? I doubt anyone is going to be able to say this without stumbling over the limitations of human language.
So a couple of things I guess. I never said Boettner was a Tritheist, he explicitly says on pg. 105 that he is not one. I said his words could be taken to mean that. That is obviously true or no one would have a problem with it and Twitter wouldn't have cared when Reece used Boettner's understanding.

I would say that the correct way to use the words when speaking about the Trinity is the historical way the church has used them. When you use words like being, essence, person, mind, and consciousness differently than the Fathers, Scholastics, Reformers, and Post-Reformers have used them, then claim to be using them the same way they did, that gets you into trouble. I never said that we don't stumble over the language, I said we are like a 2 year old trying to describe a combustion engine. But the guardrail is to use the ancient language because it has been used, understood, agreed upon and vetted. It is only in the last 150 years that we have decided that the way that language was used was inadequate. I'm not seeking to be a jerk or uncharitable. I'm seeking to speak the way our fathers did.

Also, men like Boettner and Reece are bound by the Standards they hold. They are obligated to speak the way Westminster does. to understand Westminster on the Trinity you have to read the men that wrote it, like Francis Cheynell and Thomas Goodwin. Both men would've said that three wills in the Trinity is heresy. For reverence see Francis Cheynell, the Divine Trinunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, pg. 29, 60, 83, 108 and following. These pages are referenced from the 2024 reprint by Berith Press. Therefore, it is proper to call out teachers of the Word, bound to a Confessional standard, whenever they speak against the historic understanding of the Confessional Standard they are obligated to hold and articulate because they vowed before God that they share that understanding.
 
So a couple of things I guess. I never said Boettner was a Tritheist, he explicitly says on pg. 105 that he is not one. I said his words could be taken to mean that. That is obviously true or no one would have a problem with it and Twitter wouldn't have cared when Reece used Boettner's understanding.

I would say that the correct way to use the words when speaking about the Trinity is the historical way the church has used them. When you use words like being, essence, person, mind, and consciousness differently than the Fathers, Scholastics, Reformers, and Post-Reformers have used them, then claim to be using them the same way they did, that gets you into trouble. I never said that we don't stumble over the language, I said we are like a 2 year old trying to describe a combustion engine. But the guardrail is to use the ancient language because it has been used, understood, agreed upon and vetted. It is only in the last 150 years that we have decided that the way that language was used was inadequate. I'm not seeking to be a jerk or uncharitable. I'm seeking to speak the way our fathers did.

Also, men like Boettner and Reece are bound by the Standards they hold. They are obligated to speak the way Westminster does. to understand Westminster on the Trinity you have to read the men that wrote it, like Francis Cheynell and Thomas Goodwin. Both men would've said that three wills in the Trinity is heresy. For reverence see Francis Cheynell, the Divine Trinunity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, pg. 29, 60, 83, 108 and following. These pages are referenced from the 2024 reprint by Berith Press. Therefore, it is proper to call out teachers of the Word, bound to a Confessional standard, whenever they speak against the historic understanding of the Confessional Standard they are obligated to hold and articulate because they vowed before God that they share that understanding.


Simply saying you would use the words of the fathers does not answer my question. I doubt you could answer the question without feeling you have been backed into a corner by your own standard of judgment.

Historically, it is well known that the words of the orthodox have been taken out of context and used in ways they would not have condoned. I am sure we could make a number of theologians trip over their own words. But that is not a skill I would like to cultivate.

The historical way the church has spoken of this matter has appreciated the difficulty of speaking about it. Cheynell refers to this:

"This question concerning the Distinction of the Divine Nature and these three most glorious persons which subsist in it, is the most difficult point in all Divinity, and therefore I humbly beg the assistance of all these glorious persons, that I may conceive and write judiciously and reverently of this profound and glorious Mystery of Faith." (P. 97.)

The fathers were all well aware that words fail us at this very point. Scripture speaks of three willing persons even while it speaks of God having one mind and will. Credence must be give to both sides of revelation. Therefore we give our teachers the opportunity to explain and qualify themselves. Boettner has explained and qualified himself. That should be sufficient.
 
You simply haven’t read what I said about Boettner. Did you not see that I said he says he isn’t a Tritheist but the words he uses is problematic? Are you that combative and protective of a man that you cannot admit that he used words poorly? Isn’t that you’re point? That words fail us and we can use them incorrectly?

When did I not offer a chance for him to explain? If you were to explain wrongly are you not simply wrong? Yes Cheynell does say that, he also directly contradicts Boettner’s understanding on the pages I mentioned.

Are you honestly saying that there is not a correct way to speak about God? If the fathers didn’t think there were ways to speak correctly, wouldn’t they have not let Arius, Apollonarius, and Nestorius off the hook?

Why is it controversial to say, ya know this guy might’ve not spoken the best way? I’m not saying I’m perfect. I’m saying we have guides and to speak differently from this is dangerous. It is the highest arrogance to say that no one can be wrong.
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Cheynell literally says on pg. 29 that they have one nature, one will. He says that this stands with Hilary who says there are not three essences. Showing that Cheynell holds that it is because will is a property of essence not person that he thinks there is one will. This shouldn’t be hard
 
Are you that combative and protective of a man that you cannot admit that he used words poorly? Isn’t that you’re point? That words fail us and we can use them incorrectly?

I said it is clumsy language. I wouldn't speak of "centers of knowledge." But I know what he is driving at. He is seeking to show that each person possesses the whole Godhead. Hence each of the persons possesses the knowledge and will of God. When the tradition denies three wills it still affirms that each person wills with the divine will. What Boettner says is not incorrect.
 
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