Gospel ministry to illegal immigrants: Conflict?

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Puritan Sailor

Puritan Board Doctor
How is a Christian to go about this? At what point do we draw the line with obeying God verses obeying men when ministering to illegal immigrants. We all have a calling to share the gospel and this includes sharing with illegal immigrants. Yet we are called to obey the just laws of our land. I don't see anything necessarily unjust with a nation limiting immigration. So perhaps we could discuss this. I personally am thinking that we don't even look for someone's immigration status. We just share the gospel and minister to them because they need it.

But what happens when we find out their illegal status? What is a Christian or the Church to do? Anyone with first hand experience in this issue? I would particularly like to hear from pastors and elders.
:book2:
 
How is a Christian to go about this? At what point do we draw the line with obeying God verses obeying men when ministering to illegal immigrants. We all have a calling to share the gospel and this includes sharing with illegal immigrants. Yet we are called to obey the just laws of our land. I don't see anything necessarily unjust with a nation limiting immigration. So perhaps we could discuss this. I personally am thinking that we don't even look for someone's immigration status. We just share the gospel and minister to them because they need it.

But what happens when we find out their illegal status? What is a Christian or the Church to do? Anyone with first hand experience in this issue? I would particularly like to hear from pastors and elders.
:book2:

Two things: You have not been given authority as a magistrate to enforce the law, and the law does not require you to report their status, so your decision to not report them is not an actual conflict.

Second, in most states there is a legal privilege related to ministerial counseling. This means that you, if you are acting as a minister, are not breaking any laws by withholding the information. This privilege is not absolute, for instance, if someone confesses that he is running a child prostitution ring, or is planning violence, the privilege usually does not apply.

Of course, I would expect part of your counsel would be to exhort a person in illegal status to become legal or otherwise obey the laws of the land.
 
For what it's worth,

I don't, personally, see a conflict between witnessing to illegals and following the law. It might not be too seeker sensitive, but it would be the right thing to do. Witness to them and then report them if they refuse to obey the law.
 
I am in general agreement with Vic. I would minister to illegal aliens with no strings attached. I would not, however, provide protection from the authorities or help the illegal alien escape justice.
 
Two things: You have not been given authority as a magistrate to enforce the law, and the law does not require you to report their status, so your decision to not report them is not an actual conflict.

Second, in most states there is a legal privilege related to ministerial counseling. This means that you, if you are acting as a minister, are not breaking any laws by withholding the information. This privilege is not absolute, for instance, if someone confesses that he is running a child prostitution ring, or is planning violence, the privilege usually does not apply.

Of course, I would expect part of your counsel would be to exhort a person in illegal status to become legal or otherwise obey the laws of the land.

I am in general agreement with Vic. I would minister to illegal aliens with no strings attached. I would not, however, provide protection from the authorities or help the illegal alien escape justice.

:agree: That seems like a wise and reasonable balance.
 
Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?
:worms:
 
I suppose if you were to turn them in the the prison ministry would be able to rightfully handle them. :D
 
Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?
:worms:

If Jose is truly converted, he will not want to live in open rebellion of the law. I would encourage him to repent of his lawlessness and take steps to become a legal immigrant. Not only is Jose, in open rebellion to the law of the land, but also to the law of God. He is also, BTW, enabling the employer to continue his oppression of other illegals and legal citizens of this nation by allowing him to take jobs away from legal citizens who he would have to pay more and afford them the same civil rights as others by paying illegals way less than what he should and treating them like slaves. If Jose is so self-centered that he is willing to stay silent and allow this to happen, then he needs to repent and get right with God.
 
Ok, lets put this in a real life situation. You have been discipling Jose for a few months now. You have lead him to the Lord and he has is grown in grace. He hasn't told you yet that he is illegal. All you know is that he has been working contruction for various contractors. Now, he comes to you one day and says he needs to borrow some money because his employer refused to pay him for the job (He is usually paid in cash). He just abused Jose because he knew Jose has no way of recourse without risking deportation. Suing the employer for not paying him his wages would result in Jose's illegal status being made public both to you and the authorities, which means possible deportation. Now what do you do as a good law abiding Christian brother?
:worms:

I would inform Jose that he has been dealt with unjustly by his employer, but he is breaking the law by being here illegally. I would counsel Jose to find an immigration attorney and arrange to turn himself in to the authorities. I would not turn Jose over to the authorities myself, at least not initially. It would depend on Jose's actions. I certainly would not aid Jose in his continuing to hide his illegal status in the United States.
 
"You shall not oppress a resident alien;. you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 23.9)

‘For the Lord your God is God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.’ (Dr 10:17-18)

‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.’ (Lv 19:33-34 cf Dt 10:19)



Why have a missionary opportunity in our very midst - we need not even go anywhere..they are coming to us!!!
 
If Jose is truly converted, he will not want to live in open rebellion of the law. I would encourage him to repent of his lawlessness and take steps to become a legal immigrant. Not only is Jose, in open rebellion to the law of the land, but also to the law of God. He is also, BTW, enabling the employer to continue his oppression of other illegals and legal citizens of this nation by allowing him to take jobs away from legal citizens who he would have to pay more and afford them the same civil rights as others by paying illegals way less than what he should and treating them like slaves. If Jose is so self-centered that he is willing to stay silent and allow this to happen, then he needs to repent and get right with God.

:agree: If Jose has been truly converted, he would want to live and walk with integrity.
 
Sanctification is progressive, it takes years to give up some sins (if this be a sin)..and the "sins" which feed one's poor family back home would probably be the last ones to go....
 
"You shall not oppress a resident alien;. you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt." (Ex. 23.9)

‘For the Lord your God is God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow, and loves the alien, giving him food and clothing.’ (Dr 10:17-18)

‘When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.’ (Lv 19:33-34 cf Dt 10:19)


Why have a missionary opportunity in our very midst - we need not even go anywhere..they are coming to us!!!

Trevor, with all due respect, the aliens you cite in are not the same type of aliens we are facing today. National borders were easily crossed in the ancient world. Aliens were allowed to settle in the land of Israel. The aliens we are facing today are breaking the established law of the land. We are to obey the authorities over us, are we not? Illegal aliens are just that, illegal. They are breaking the law.

That said, I agree they are a missions opportunity. I do not believe we should actively seek to turn illegal aliens in to the I.N.S. But if an illegal alien confides in us that they are illegal, we have a obligation to appeal to their conscience. If they are a believer they should do the right thing.
 
My calling is not political.

If a US citizen came to me asking about salvation I wouldn't ask him if he had any unpaid parking tickets and, oh yeah, go and pay those first before I give you the bread of life.


I would minister to him and let Ceasar take care of Ceasar's realm.

I have no obligation to report him, I would probably pursue a don't ask don't tell policy and I would not shrink from ministering to him. If he asked I would give him my opinion. There are plenty of legal non-US citizens and they look the same as illegals....why would I pry?

Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.

It is also illegal in muslim countries to preach the Gospel to Muslims...are we sinning to break that law? the civil realm only goes so far.


Aliens back then usually belonged to neighboring tribes who, if in great enough numbers, would try to conquer your land by force and often did. Times were even rougher back then and yet Israel was told to be hospitable.



I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.
 
My calling is not political.

If a US citizen came to me asking about salvation I wouldn't ask him if he had any unpaid parking tickets and, oh yeah, go and pay those first before I give you the bread of life.


I would minister to him and let Ceasar take care of Ceasar's realm.

I have no obligation to report him, I would probably pursue a don't ask don't tell policy and I would not shrink from ministering to him. If he asked I would give him my opinion. There are plenty of legal non-US citizens and they look the same as illegals....why would I pry?

Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.

It is also illegal in muslim countries to preach the Gospel to Muslims...are we sinning to break that law? the civil realm only goes so far.


Aliens back then usually belonged to neighboring tribes who, if in great enough numbers, would try to conquer your land by force and often did. Times were even rougher back then and yet Israel was told to be hospitable.



I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.
I agree, I will obey the laws of Christ first. Our goverment takes our tax dollars to go after illegals, so let Caesar handle that aspect. I am not border patrol. I preach the Gospel. Grace and Peace
 
All of that sounds very inspiring and very spiritual, but what if any other kind of "fugitive" were to come to you? Would you report a murder suspect?

The "don't ask don't tell" policy sounds good to me, but that's different from "don't need to ask, already know (that you are a criminal)."
 
I live in Texas......if I spent all my time reporting illegals I would not have time to breathe.:cheers:
 
Malachi

For those who know the Lord,

Defrauding labores of their legal wages, isn't just a legal matter it is SPIRITUAL MATTER. Oppressing the vulnerable, commiting injustice against those who have no power to protect themselves, all of these things that the Lord mentions here are SINS. Don't FOOL YOURSELF or let yourself be FOOL, America! Oops,I mean Christians.

-"Love your neighbor as your self" that includes Illegal Immigrates.
 
Plus, if the US is not his country, he is not breaking any of the laws of his land. He is merely trying to better his family's situation.

And families in the United States are not trying to better their situation? Consider this fact: the millions of illegal aliens in the United States drive up the cost of social programs, including health care. Illegal aliens depress wages, especially in border states. If illegals immigrated legally employers would have to pay American workers more, this improving the economic situation of many of the minimum wage earners in our country. The cost to the US tax payer is enormous. Add to the fact that having so many illegals in this country makes it easier for terrorists to hide among their number. These terrorists are bent on destroying this nation. While the opportunity-seeking illegal alien may not be responsible for terrorism, the presence of millions of illegals does threaten this nation.

Trevor, please undestand my words. I am not saying we should not show illegals the love of Christ by presenting to them the gospel. We should. I am not advocating Christian vigilantes who round up illegals and turn them over to the I.N.S. But if we find out they are illegals, we have a responsibility before God to encourage them to do the right thing. Consider this:

Matthew 22:19-21 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience ' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.


Citizens of this country and illegal aliens have a responsibility to pay taxes. Illegals don't pay federal income or state taxes. They are breaking the established law and violating scripture. We are to obey the ruling authorities, so long as they are not commanding us to violate scripture. I don't believe asking illegal aliens to do the right thing is violating scripture.

Summary: proclaim the gospel to all. If we come into contact with illegals, call on them to do that right things, for this pleases God. If the don't I may not personally hand them over to the authorities, but I will not offer them assistance in maintaining their secrecy.
 
I am involved in a ministry that reaches immigrants. I don't ask them if they have their papers in order; that's not my concern. Frankly, if a law interferes with the free proclamation of the gospel the law should go. While it may not have been Trevor's intention, I believe that the scripture that he cited above strongly suggests that current immigration policy is unjust. Deporting an immigrant because he doesn't have some piece of paper is not treating him "as one of your native-born."
 
I find this thread amazing. I am getting the feeling that some believe it is okay to pick what scriptures to obey and which ones not to obey.

:think:
 
I am involved in a ministry that reaches immigrants. I don't ask them if they have their papers in order; that's not my concern. Frankly, if a law interferes with the free proclamation of the gospel the law should go. While it may not have been Trevor's intention, I believe that the scripture that he cited above strongly suggests that current immigration policy is unjust. Deporting an immigrant because he doesn't have some piece of paper is not treating him "as one of your native-born."

Scott - I believe deporting legal immigrants is wrong. Deporting illegal immigrants is just. My family (on my mothers sides) saved five years wages in order to immigrate from Sicily. They came here legally.

btw thanks be to God for your ministry to illegals. Continue to minister to them as God gives opportunity. I don't want anyone in this thread to misconstrue my words and suggest I do not have compassion for illegals. I do, for the cause of Christ and His kingdom.
 
If you are ministering to a dark skinned person in Texas, the question, "So...are you an illegal alien..?" seems like it may not come up for quite a while. It is not even really our concern.

Social statistics concerning American levels of comfort really matter little here. Our main job is the Gospel. This will encourage law-abidingness, but is only a 2ndry aim.

Yes, we always should encourage people to do the right thing. But, this is a question of priorities. There are a 1,000 things more important than to encourage someone to report to the INS.
 
I fear nationalism often gets in the way of our Christianity.

This has become a major concern for me about the Church in America. Too often we look at ourselves as Americans first rather than Christians first. So when it comes to an issue of illegal immigration, we think first as American citizens and law enforcement, rather than an opportunity to spread the gospel. I'm not trying to argue against the idea of law enforcement and obeying the magistrate, just expose the gut reactions of some American Christians, and how that indicates a misplaced priority perhaps in their hearts. We could argue the same thing with the Iraq War. Do you think of it first as a Christian and how it will affect the global Church? Or first as an American and how it affects your home? (Don't make this a war thread PLEASE! It's just another illustration). That's the kind of discussion I was hoping to provoke with this thread. :book2:
 
If you are ministering to a dark skinned person in Texas, the question, "So...are you an illegal alien..?" seems like it may not come up for quite a while. It is not even really our concern.

Social statistics concerning American levels of comfort really matter little here. Our main job is the Gospel. This will encourage law-abidingness, but is only a 2ndry aim.

Yes, we always should encourage people to do the right thing. But, this is a question of priorities. There are a 1,000 things more important than to encourage someone to report to the INS.

Trevor, I'm in Maryland, not Texas so your first paragraph is moot.

I disagree with your second paragraph. Your previous post cited illegals coming here to better their situation. Is it moral to better your situation at the expense of others? I think not. Regarding the gospel being our first priority, we are not in disagreement. I thought I made that clear in previous posts.

We're not talking about 1,000 other things. We are talking specficially about illegals. I'm not on a witch hunt for illegals. I wouldn't even ask a person is they are legal. But what if the person tells us? That was the point of the OP.
 
And families in the United States are not trying to better their situation? Consider this fact: the millions of illegal aliens in the United States drive up the cost of social programs, including health care. Illegal aliens depress wages, especially in border states. If illegals immigrated legally employers would have to pay American workers more, this improving the economic situation of many of the minimum wage earners in our country. The cost to the US tax payer is enormous. Add to the fact that having so many illegals in this country makes it easier for terrorists to hide among their number. These terrorists are bent on destroying this nation. While the opportunity-seeking illegal alien may not be responsible for terrorism, the presence of millions of illegals does threaten this nation.

Trevor, please undestand my words. I am not saying we should not show illegals the love of Christ by presenting to them the gospel. We should. I am not advocating Christian vigilantes who round up illegals and turn them over to the I.N.S. But if we find out they are illegals, we have a responsibility before God to encourage them to do the right thing. Consider this:

Matthew 22:19-21 19 "Show Me the coin used for the poll-tax." And they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, "Whose likeness and inscription is this?" 21 They said to Him, "Caesar's." Then He said to them, "Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2 Therefore he who resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil. 5 Wherefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience ' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7 Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.


Citizens of this country and illegal aliens have a responsibility to pay taxes. Illegals don't pay federal income or state taxes. They are breaking the established law and violating scripture. We are to obey the ruling authorities, so long as they are not commanding us to violate scripture. I don't believe asking illegal aliens to do the right thing is violating scripture.

Summary: proclaim the gospel to all. If we come into contact with illegals, call on them to do that right things, for this pleases God. If the don't I may not personally hand them over to the authorities, but I will not offer them assistance in maintaining their secrecy.

:up: :agree:
 
All of that sounds very inspiring and very spiritual, but what if any other kind of "fugitive" were to come to you? Would you report a murder suspect?

The "don't ask don't tell" policy sounds good to me, but that's different from "don't need to ask, already know (that you are a criminal)."

I find this thread amazing. I am getting the feeling that some believe it is okay to pick what scriptures to obey and which ones not to obey.

:think:

If you are ministering to a dark skinned person in Texas, the question, "So...are you an illegal alien..?" seems like it may not come up for quite a while. It is not even really our concern.

Social statistics concerning American levels of comfort really matter little here. Our main job is the Gospel. This will encourage law-abidingness, but is only a 2ndry aim.

Yes, we always should encourage people to do the right thing. But, this is a question of priorities. There are a 1,000 things more important than to encourage someone to report to the INS.

Trevor, I'm in Maryland, not Texas so your first paragraph is moot.

I disagree with your second paragraph. Your previous post cited illegals coming here to better their situation. Is it moral to better your situation at the expense of others? I think not. Regarding the gospel being our first priority, we are not in disagreement. I thought I made that clear in previous posts.

We're not talking about 1,000 other things. We are talking specficially about illegals. I'm not on a witch hunt for illegals. I wouldn't even ask a person is they are legal. But what if the person tells us? That was the point of the OP.

Nobody seemed to care about what I said after posting twice, but I just want to say again that Bill is right.

The "witch hunt" accusation is just a straw man. Nobody's talking about going on a witch hunt for illegal immigrants. We're talking about how we should approach someone who we know to be living a life in opposition to law. Why would we deal with an illegal immigrant any differently than a thief or any other kind of person living in sin against God as well as the civil authorities?
 
Illegals are knowingly in violation of the law of the land.

Ministers are appointed both to preach the Gospel, as well as to teach their people to live lawfully, as a good testimony of their faith.

It is the minister's obligation that he instruct illegals in the church that they return to their country if they are to have a credible profession.

If a minister fails to do this, he is encouraging them to live as hypocrites, professing righteousness while at the same time living in sin and rebellion against a God appointed government.



Btw, illegals are not just a bunch of honest, hard working folk who are desperately trying to feed their families, yet are being oppressed by the "great whore" America. I have friends who work on border security teams, and they will let you know that illegals are a huge drug trafficking problem, as well as sustainers of child prostitution. The crime statistics down here in SoCal are also telling. The LA Times ran a report last year that set forth a few of these statistics:


95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers. (yes, I consider this the sin of theft)

The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles are illegal aliens from south of the border.

The list could easily go on...



So, yes, it is the church's obligation to evangelize them, but it is also her obligation to then teach them how to live according to Christian ethics (regarding which some on this board seem to be a little hazy...).
 
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