Gospel ministry to illegal immigrants: Conflict?

[kvanlaan]

Rich, I have some Mormon neighbors that I think can hook me up with an ummin and thummim set real quick like.

 

[kvanlaan]

Question: What would happen to this fellow if he were turned over to the South Korean Embassy? In this case, I would think it would be immoral to turn him over to an oppressive regime where he would be unjustly tortured. Of course, like you said, this is not the case in America.

When you bring them to the S Korean Embassy, they would be taken to S Korea and integrated into society (their ultimate destination anyway). The reason they go through China is that there are a few million landmines and some guys with guns sitting at the border so, strangely enough, China is the "safe" option.

 

[etexas]

Rich, I have some Mormon neighbors that I think can hook me up with an ummin and thummim set real quick like.

How much them Mormon sellin' ummin and thummin fer? Really? Do Mormond "have" that type of thing. I know they think they are to a degree OT Israel......but.

 

[kvanlaan]

Well, it's what Joseph Smith found in the box with the gold tablets on the hilll in upstate New York where there was an epic battle in ancient America where thousands were killed around the time when Christ visited the US...etc. etc. etc.

So your average Mormon could not likely get their hands on 'em, BUT they're out there somewhere...maybe in SLC?

 

[VictorBravo]

How much them Mormon sellin' ummin and thummin fer? Really? Do Mormond "have" that type of thing. I know they think they are to a degree OT Israel......but.

Guys, ummim and thummin are a dime a dozen. I keep a set in my pickup. You are looking for a urim and thummim.

As for the morman version, they are a bit pricier:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/HistoricalArchive/belchersmithdibble.htm

 

[etexas]

Guys, ummim and thummin are a dime a dozen. I keep a set in my pickup. You are looking for a urim and thummim.

As for the morman version, they are a bit pricier:

http://www.rickgrunder.com/HistoricalArchive/belchersmithdibble.htm

Hey Vic. If I spell it different are they cheaper are more expensive??????

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation.

What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.

Excellent observation. Some great material for meditation upon this current topic. Thank you!

Didn't the Romans have strict laws about run-away slaves too? I seem to remember something about that. The apostle Paul's treatment of Onesimus could probably further shed light on how a Christian should respond to a brother who is breaking the law (assuming it is a just law....).

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Main problem with this thread. It can never have ANY closure here! Look everyone got in their But This involves a volatile combo: Politics,Theology,Philosophy,Law,Individual Conscience,State Versus Church,(oh , I can add about a dozen more factors) but in the end.......hurt feelings and no final satisfactory conclusion. No good can come from letting this go on forever. Just my

No conversation here goes on forever. And I think it is an important and deeply relevant issue for us to think through, even if we disagree on the conclusions. That's how iron sharpens iron.

Unfortunately, very little work is being done on these contemporary issues by the Reformed churches that I know of. I think the OPC began a study committee on this issue last year, don't know when the findings will come out. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well. There's too many opportunities to reach out with the gospel. They are coming right to our neighborhoods now. We don't have to send missionaries to them. We are the missionaries now. How well shall we perform as missionaries? I for one do not want the Reformed churches to drop the ball on this one. We have the theology to lead the way, but we too often are lagging far behind, to our shame.

 

[Bandguy]

Maybe we could glean from Paul concerning this situation.

What do you all think about looking at Onesimus. He was a fugitive of the law and his master. He was unconverted and a thief when he ran into Paul. He was illegally at a destination that he was not suppose to be at. Philemon had every legal right to pursue Onesimus. Philemon and Paul where heirs of the Kingdom of Christ. Onesimus became one while with Paul. Did Paul send Onesimus right back to Philemon because he ran away from his master? I don't think so. Onesimus became useful to Paul. In fact Onesimus is probably responsible for the distribution of Paul's epistles. He also became a Bishop of the Church.

I think Rich answered it quite correctly when he mentions that Paul called in a favor, but did follow the law.

 

[etexas]

No conversation here goes on forever. And I think it is an important and deeply relevant issue for us to think through, even if we disagree on the conclusions. That's how iron sharpens iron.

Unfortunately, very little work is being done on these contemporary issues by the Reformed churches that I know of. I think the OPC began a study committee on this issue last year, don't know when the findings will come out. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well. There's too many opportunities to reach out with the gospel. They are coming right to our neighborhoods now. We don't have to send missionaries to them. We are the missionaries now. How well shall we perform as missionaries? I for one do not want the Reformed churches to drop the ball on this one. We have the theology to lead the way, but we too often are lagging far behind, to our shame.

You are right Patrick. It is the duty of Reformed Believers to reflect on these issues. Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

 

[Bandguy]

No conversation here goes on forever. And I think it is an important and deeply relevant issue for us to think through, even if we disagree on the conclusions. That's how iron sharpens iron.

Unfortunately, very little work is being done on these contemporary issues by the Reformed churches that I know of. I think the OPC began a study committee on this issue last year, don't know when the findings will come out. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well. There's too many opportunities to reach out with the gospel. They are coming right to our neighborhoods now. We don't have to send missionaries to them. We are the missionaries now. How well shall we perform as missionaries? I for one do not want the Reformed churches to drop the ball on this one. We have the theology to lead the way, but we too often are lagging far behind, to our shame.

I don't need a study committee to figure this out. I sure hope you aren't seriously waiting with baited breath to figure out what we have known since the great commission. I am going to witness to the lost no matter who they are. If one of those people get saved, however, and come to me and confide that they are here illegally and being abused and blackmailed by their slavemaster while they lower the wages of honest, hard working Americans and legal immigrants who wait an average of 10-12 years to do things the right way and enable the slavemaster to abuse and blackmail other illegals, I am going to first rebuke the brother and encourage him to do the right thing, which would be to turn himself and his slavemaster in, repent, and apply to come legally. If they are not willing to do this, they are showing the selfishness of an unregenerate man and should be turned in along with the slavemaster. They are criminals, not honest, hard working folk.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I don't need a study committee to figure this out. I sure hope you aren't seriously waiting with baited breath to figure out what we have known since the great commission. I am going to witness to the lost no matter who they are. If one of those people get saved, however, and come to me and confide that they are here illegally and being abused and blackmailed by their slavemaster while they lower the wages of honest, hard working Americans and legal immigrants who wait an average of 10-12 years to do things the right way and enable the slavemaster to abuse and blackmail other illegals, I am going to first rebuke the brother and encourage him to do the right thing, which would be to turn himself and his slavemaster in, repent, and apply to come legally. If they are not willing to do this, they are showing the selfishness of an unregenerate man and should be turned in along with the slavemaster. They are criminals, not honest, hard working folk.

I'm not waiting with baited breath. I think the answer is pretty clear and agree with your summary in principle. But too often we stick our head in the sand, or unwittingly fall into the thinking of nationalism rather than confront these issues as Christians first. I think it is more of a daily battle to sanctify our thoughts. We all know what the Great Commission says. The question (at least for this issue) is, is the ideal of the great commission the first thing that comes to mind when addressing an issue like illegal immigration? Or is it first an American border control issue? What view takes priority in our daily conversation about the issue (especially in Church)? I think how one honestly answers that question may reveal some inner presuppositions that we haven't thought through. So I ask the question to make people more conscious of their default presuppositions so that they can refine them according to Scripture.

 

[Bandguy]

I think the nationalism card is a strawman that you have created. Nobody here thus far, myself included, has stated that nationalism is more important than the Gospel. We have all, as a matter of fact said quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with nationalism at all. It has to do with confronting sin in the life of a person who claims to have been converted. It has to do with not turning a blind eye to sin and criminal behavior.

 

[Davidius]

I think the nationalism card is a strawman that you have created. Nobody here thus far, myself included, has stated that nationalism is more important than the Gospel. We have all, as a matter of fact said quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with nationalism at all. It has to do with confronting sin in the life of a person who claims to have been converted. It has to do with not turning a blind eye to sin and criminal behavior.

No one has said anything that resembles the nationalism/witch hunt strawman and at this point it's unfair and unnecessary to keep resurrecting it.

 

[RamistThomist]

. Personally, I'm going to learn Spanish and see that my children learn it as well.

Spanish is easier than Hebrew. Much easier. Spanish-speaking people talk fast, though, and that can be difficult. You have been living in the South for the past few years. While you may not realize it, you probably talk slower than you did in the past. Other than that, since yo uhave several languages under your belt, Spanish shouldnt be too hard.

 

[Bandguy]

Spanish is easier than Hebrew.

I guess it depends on the person because for me, Hebrew was a lot easier to learn than Spanish. As a matter of fact, after two years of Spanish in High School, I came out basically knowing the absolute essentials to survive:

Taco
Fajita
Nacho
Burrito

Seriously, for me, Hebrew was very easy in comparison.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

I think the nationalism card is a strawman that you have created. Nobody here thus far, myself included, has stated that nationalism is more important than the Gospel. We have all, as a matter of fact said quite the opposite. It has nothing to do with nationalism at all. It has to do with confronting sin in the life of a person who claims to have been converted. It has to do with not turning a blind eye to sin and criminal behavior.

I'm speaking in general, not trying to point fingers at you. Relax brother. And nationalism is a problem in American churches. There are more people who read these threads than just those who post. My hope is that others think the issue through.

 

[Puritan Sailor]

Spanish is easier than Hebrew. Much easier. Spanish-speaking people talk fast, though, and that can be difficult. You have been living in the South for the past few years. While you may not realize it, you probably talk slower than you did in the past. Other than that, since yo uhave several languages under your belt, Spanish shouldnt be too hard.

I've actually been meeting with a Mexican missionary the last couple days. He has given me some pointers on how to learn the language quickly and be conversational in it within a few months. It's definitely easier than Hebrew.

 

[RamistThomist]

If you are italian (part of my ancestry), then all you need is "mas vino, eh?"

Has anyone heard the country-western song by Blaine Larson on learning Spanish: I don't know what she said, but I sure love the way that she said it."

Spanish is fun. German is fun, too, but it is hard. Hebrew was a nightmare. I suffered with you on that one.

 

[MrMerlin777]

I'm speaking in general, not trying to point fingers at you. Relax brother. And nationalism is a problem in American churches. There are more people who read these threads than just those who post. My hope is that others think the issue through.

This takes me back to a singular experience Trevor Johnson related awhile back. Somthing about a Church he was at that practically had a "worship" service to the American flag.

It's in this old thread. http://www.puritanboard.com/showthread.php?t=17118&highlight=flags

 

[Ivan]

I've actually been meeting with a Mexican missionary the last couple days. He has given me some pointers on how to learn the language quickly and be conversational in it within a few months. It's definitely easier than Hebrew.

I'd like to hear about the pointers. I took Spanish in High School for a couple of years. Still remember some, but I'd like to be at least conversational. Believe it or not, we need associates who speak Spanish at Wal-Mart. It happens several times a deal.....in Wisconsin!!