Gothic Christians?
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C. Matthew McMahon
Christian Preacher
With anything we do, whatever it is, we should be focused to do all to the glory of God.
If someone wants to pierce their ear, their eye, their nose, their lip, well, they need to have a reason why that aids them in the glorification of Jesus Christ.
If someone wants to have long hair, or short, hair, or spiked hair or blue hair, etc., the same applies.
If someone wants to associate themselves with a certain kind of music, or lifestyle, then all of that has to surround the biblical truth of the Word, and they must have a godly purpose behind their actions.
This applies to all of us.
If someone wants to pierce their ear, their eye, their nose, their lip, well, they need to have a reason why that aids them in the glorification of Jesus Christ.
If someone wants to have long hair, or short, hair, or spiked hair or blue hair, etc., the same applies.
If someone wants to associate themselves with a certain kind of music, or lifestyle, then all of that has to surround the biblical truth of the Word, and they must have a godly purpose behind their actions.
This applies to all of us.
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
I am actually considering going to their get-together just so I can relieve the doubts in my judgmental mind. Wonder if I'll find brothers and sisters in Christ or not...
fivepointcalvinist
Puritan Board Sophomore
1 Thessalonians 5:22 "Abstain from all appearance of evil"
do these "christians" exemplify the glory of God with their dress and lifestyle?
do these "christians" exemplify the glory of God with their dress and lifestyle?
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
But then one has to qualify what is evil. I'm going to concede to you on the lifestyle issue but as far as clothing, what makes their clothing evil? How exactly do we apply that verse and to what extent? Many people feel it's wrong to drink a beer so if I wore my Molson Canadian hockey jersey would I be disobeying that verse?
fivepointcalvinist
Puritan Board Sophomore
you could be but that depends on ones biblical understanding on whether or not a christian can "legally" consume alcohol. i personally have no problem with alcohol for others as long as its in moderation. i choose to avoid it because it could manifest itself into a problem for me. anyways, the black wardrobe including makeup, fingernail polish and musical preferance connote evil. gothic dress is exclusive to that subculture which frequently associates itself with demonic worship, inconspicously as well as saliently. also, does our dress not reveal our personality. men love darkness, goth is darkness and men will find any excuse to justify a continuation therein. just my
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
Agreed. I know one already. She was really an onfire person.
FPC, I have tried using that argument, but I wear black, I love to hang out in graveyards on the nights of full moons, and I definitly am not gothic...
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist
you could be but that depends on ones biblical understanding on whether or not a christian can "legally" consume alcohol. i personally have no problem with alcohol for others as long as its in moderation. i choose to avoid it because it could manifest itself into a problem for me. anyways, the black wardrobe including makeup, fingernail polish and musical preferance connote evil. gothic dress is exclusive to that subculture which frequently associates itself with demonic worship, inconspicously as well as saliently. also, does our dress not reveal our personality. men love darkness, goth is darkness and men will find any excuse to justify a continuation therein. just my
I hear you on the alcohol issue. As for the black wardrobe it only connotes evil because we believe that it does. We've given it that connotation. Kind of like certain words are swear words in our culture because we've decided they are. There is nothing innately evil about wearing black. I don't believe it reflects that people love darkness as that darkness the Bible is talking about is spiritual darkness, not clothing.
I don't believe our dress does reveal our personality. Maybe when we're teenagers but as adults we dress in a way that meets accepted societal standards. We dress casually in a casual environment. We dress for business at the office or even when looking for employment. Our dress is more of a reflection of what society says is ok than what our personality is, in my opinion. Which is why many people have a problem with the way goths dress...because it is not how most of society dresses; which is exactly why the goths dress like that, to stand out or be different but it doesn't necessarily mean they love darkness and evil.
fivepointcalvinist
Puritan Board Sophomore
does this imply "appearance"? people make observations based off associations. most should associate kindness, charity, humilty and love with that of a christian although that does not specifically make someone a christian. similarly, the color black does not make someone evil, or inclined to darkness, but the color certainly can represent it. we as humans dont associate the color white with evil, but good (im being general). thus, black gothic dress is associated with evil and should be avoided no matter how genuine the claim to sincerity may be.
i think this argument is fallacious but subtle. our clothes do reveal our personality regardless if we acknowledge or even notice. in your example "Our dress is more of a reflection of what society says is ok"; if we accept this as true, which i may also agree is true, we show our behavior as conformity to acceptance, and not as being rebellious to social norms, which is part of our personality (again, im being general). on a lighter note, do you think in any way that the gothic subculture, which in fact is a lifestyle, with goth dress as a manifestation of the goth worldview, glorifies God? is the perception of goths unfairly attributed? i think the answer to both wil be a resounding 'no'.
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
They may not have the best representation, I agree, but wearing all black is NOT wrong...nor is it paganish.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Originally posted by fivepointcalvinist
does this imply "appearance"? people make observations based off associations. most should associate kindness, charity, humilty and love with that of a christian although that does not specifically make someone a christian. similarly, the color black does not make someone evil, or inclined to darkness, but the color certainly can represent it. we as humans dont associate the color white with evil, but good (im being general). thus, black gothic dress is associated with evil and should be avoided no matter how genuine the claim to sincerity may be.
If black dress is associated with evil then what do we do about priests, judges, funeral directors, etc.? When did black gothic dress become associated with evil and something to be avoided? Didn't the early Puritans wear all black?
i think this argument is fallacious but subtle. our clothes do reveal our personality regardless if we acknowledge or even notice. in your example "Our dress is more of a reflection of what society says is ok"; if we accept this as true, which i may also agree is true, we show our behavior as conformity to acceptance, and not as being rebellious to social norms, which is part of our personality (again, im being general). on a lighter note, do you think in any way that the gothic subculture, which in fact is a lifestyle, with goth dress as a manifestation of the goth worldview, glorifies God? is the perception of goths unfairly attributed? i think the answer to both wil be a resounding 'no'.
I don't believe it was fallacious and subtle.I thought I made a point, and still do. You said that our clothes do reveal our personality but gave no proof. I do agree that we dress to conform to social norms but I don't see that as being part of our personality. The only two options as far as dress in relation to societal standards are conformity and rebellion. Personality is much more complicated than that I believe.
I do not know much about the goth lifestyle, I just started checking that site out. It's not my cup of tea and may not be glorifying of God. As for their dress however, I believe I could establish that it could glorify God as much as any other style of dress. God wants us to dress modestly. What is more modest than all black clothing covering up everything? And if it's fine for judges to wear black robes, priests to wear black suits, and the old Puritans to wear their funky black costumes (light-hearted), then it can't be wrong for goths to be Christians and wear all black.
Someone mentioned cemeteries...I don't care to hang out in them at night but I do like to walk around in them and see all the names, dates, and history.
BobVigneault
Bawberator
Goth culture is by nature narcissistic, attention craving and a glory in ones own flesh to the deminishing of the glory of God. This is obvious, can't believe it needs to be stated. You're flirting with the parasite kingdom.
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Ian, from knowing you...there is a difference between the black Ts you wear, etc. and gothic attire. YOU do not look goth. Thus it's not the fact of wearing black or liking black (vs wear blue and liking blue)...but rather the STYLE of how the person intentionally is put together. They are imitating a particular subculture...is it a subculture they (as Christians) should be imitating? Therein lies the question and any answers.
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
That could be said for anyone imitating anything that is considered wrong.
No, I didn't say I was dressing gothic, but I do dress in all black sometimes...I also like chains on pants...Definitly not into gothic darkness, kinda freaky.
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by ServantofGod]
No, I didn't say I was dressing gothic, but I do dress in all black sometimes...I also like chains on pants...Definitly not into gothic darkness, kinda freaky.
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by ServantofGod]
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
But what is an angry person imitating? What does a parent imitate when they scream at their kids? What does someone who smokes imitate? Or someone that curses?
I don't think their salvation becomes invalid because they dress like a certain group of wacky people.
I don't think their salvation becomes invalid because they dress like a certain group of wacky people.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
I could ask the same question about most churches today. How does what most people wear in church edify a poor person?
When I first started going to church there were a few people who had a problem with the way I dressed (I didn't have a suit, still don't). My pastor told me if they say anything to me to tell them to buy me a suit if they felt I needed one. Come to think of it, back then my hair was long and in my face and at times I wore all black.
When I first started going to church there were a few people who had a problem with the way I dressed (I didn't have a suit, still don't). My pastor told me if they say anything to me to tell them to buy me a suit if they felt I needed one. Come to think of it, back then my hair was long and in my face and at times I wore all black.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
My husband doesn't own a suit either...and hasn't for years.
Also, there is a difference between a person be poverty stricken and one who is imitating a lifestyle that might conflict with that which the scriptures speak on.
BTW, Ian...I am reading over that website.
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]
Also, there is a difference between a person be poverty stricken and one who is imitating a lifestyle that might conflict with that which the scriptures speak on.
BTW, Ian...I am reading over that website.
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
Things pulled from the site with my comments in bold:
God doesn't care much about our outward appearance there is truth to this...however, for a christian, there are certain principles He does give us concerning these things
Goth is a state of mind does it conflict with the renewing of our minds?
Goths like dark poetry, art, music etc. (by dark, I mean deep, not dark as in evil.) There are ALOT of ppl throughout history and today that are NOT goths and yet enjoy deep poetry, art, and music...there more to it than this
a concern for the music and clothing that mourns for a lost and fallen world. we may morn for a lost and fallen world...but the lost and fallen world is looking for those that have something more, something NOT of their lost and fallen world. Also, is there somewhere that speaks of us NOT walking around in torn garments and ashes? (the ancient equivalent of this man's definition of gothic music and attire)
Do not preach, do not condemn anything, LOVE her to pieces! Compliment any gothic items she wears that you may find slightly attractive. Never point out pentagrams & such...she will be expecting you to. LOVE her into the Kingdom. Whoa, another RED flag. This is from the "anything goes" warm fuzzy camp. We ARE to discuss these things...right and wrong, etc with others. Christianity is not a "club"...hey come on in. It is filled with absolutes. You don't just "love a person in". You talk with them, you explain things to them, you teach them. Granted in love...but that is different than what is being said here.
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]
God doesn't care much about our outward appearance there is truth to this...however, for a christian, there are certain principles He does give us concerning these things
Goth is a state of mind does it conflict with the renewing of our minds?
Goths like dark poetry, art, music etc. (by dark, I mean deep, not dark as in evil.) There are ALOT of ppl throughout history and today that are NOT goths and yet enjoy deep poetry, art, and music...there more to it than this
a concern for the music and clothing that mourns for a lost and fallen world. we may morn for a lost and fallen world...but the lost and fallen world is looking for those that have something more, something NOT of their lost and fallen world. Also, is there somewhere that speaks of us NOT walking around in torn garments and ashes? (the ancient equivalent of this man's definition of gothic music and attire)
Do not preach, do not condemn anything, LOVE her to pieces! Compliment any gothic items she wears that you may find slightly attractive. Never point out pentagrams & such...she will be expecting you to. LOVE her into the Kingdom. Whoa, another RED flag. This is from the "anything goes" warm fuzzy camp. We ARE to discuss these things...right and wrong, etc with others. Christianity is not a "club"...hey come on in. It is filled with absolutes. You don't just "love a person in". You talk with them, you explain things to them, you teach them. Granted in love...but that is different than what is being said here.
[Edited on 4-28-2006 by LadyFlynt]
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
Well said...
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
Edify also means "to build up, establish, or strengthen a person, institution, etc.; to uplift".
How do people do that in their 500 dollar suits when a poor person or a goth walks into the church?
I don't know what you are teaching to others when you walk in wearing goth clothing. I have a hunch God could be using the situation to show everyone, and I mean everyone, the condition of their hearts.
How do people do that in their 500 dollar suits when a poor person or a goth walks into the church?
I don't know what you are teaching to others when you walk in wearing goth clothing. I have a hunch God could be using the situation to show everyone, and I mean everyone, the condition of their hearts.
LadyFlynt
Puritan Board Doctor
my point.
Still my point is that this is totally different than a person in a suit. To be honest, I couldn't tell you the difference between a thrift store suit or a $500 one. If a person chooses to wear a suit, they are NOT going out of their way to make some sort of "statement". Many wear suits daily as a job requirement and some wear them on Sunday simply because they were taught to wear the "best they have" as a means of respect. These same men will tell a person if the "best they have" is a pair of jeans and one polo or button down shirt (easily had for $1 at a thrift store) then that is the "best they have" and to go ahead and wear it. To intentionally be slovenly is another story. Please note the difference I grew up in a church that was in a city and we had plenty of poverty stricken ppl walk in as well as brought up children from East St Louis on buses...heavens, I was one of the Rural bus kids (after coming back to the states...previously I was one of the base bus kids). Some of my closest friends dressed better than I did on Sundays...and I dressed better than some of the other bus kids. We didn't see a difference between ourselves. NOW granted, there were your cliques of what I called the "silk shirts"...but it had to do with attitude, not their clothing being better. I've seen these same cliques in church where EVERYONE wore topline clothing and $1000 suits! Again, you need to note the difference.
Those that are already claiming Christianity and walk in with goth clothing are typically looking for attention, a reaction, and anything to "prove" others are "judgemental". This is an ATTITUDE. This signifies an issue.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
I see what you're saying. I agree.
But when I was talking about the conditions of their hearts, I mean the conditions of everyone's hearts. The goths coming in, and the Christians already in there. Many Christians can be extremely judgemental and I was referring to them just as much as the goths when I was talking about the conditions of their hearts.
But when I was talking about the conditions of their hearts, I mean the conditions of everyone's hearts. The goths coming in, and the Christians already in there. Many Christians can be extremely judgemental and I was referring to them just as much as the goths when I was talking about the conditions of their hearts.
ServantofGod
Puritan Board Junior
The way to reach that goth then is too treat them as if they had the nicest suit on...They wan't a bad reaction, catch them off guard with a loving reaction.
BaptistCanuk
Puritan Board Sophomore
I don't know if it's as much about treating them as if they had a nice suit on (though I see what you mean) but just treating them with love instead of with the negative reaction that they are expecting.
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