Great Church Sign

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This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.

Actually, the Muslims I've debated appreciate it when you take a hard line and don't mamby pamgy around. If you are mamby pamby, then they conclude that your religion must be effeminate and worthless. The conversation always gets deeper when I tell them that their god is a devil and is unjust.

That said, the effeminacy of American culture would make it particularly offensive to non-Muslims.

Cheers,

Yes, that is true...and I have seen the same thing...... up to a point (GULP, and hopefully that point is not a sword)...
 
This sign is an example of what is WRONG with the American church, even when they say true things.

Actually, the Muslims I've debated appreciate it when you take a hard line and don't mamby pamgy around. If you are mamby pamby, then they conclude that your religion must be effeminate and worthless. The conversation always gets deeper when I tell them that their god is a devil and is unjust.

That said, the effeminacy of American culture would make it particularly offensive to non-Muslims.

Cheers,

You tell muslims that their "god is a devil"? I am dying to know what their remarks have been when you have said such a thing.... In all seriousness. Why would you say such a thing? What meaningful argument can come from telling them their "god is a devil"? What point are you trying to prove when you make such a statement?

Julio,

Generally once I tell a muslim man that his god is a devil is when the gospel comes out. The point that generally bring up how satanic Allah is is how an earthly judge can't rightly let a criminal go without being evil, while Allah just lets people off scot-free without any kind of atonement (quite unlike the Christian God Who provides atonement through Jesus Christ).

Generally, by the time I have gotten to Allah is a devil, they are ready for me to say this, and it has never taken any of them by surprise. By this point, their confidence is usually shaken, and they don't really have a reply.

The point I am trying to prove is how little their god has in common with the God described in the Bible, and how offensive their idolatry and false way of salvation is.

Again, with all due respect, such a statement would sound very odd to the average American (due to causes cited earlier), but is straight-forward and manly enough to make a Muslim respect you. When using such tactics, I have never had a Muslim get belligerent with me... YET :lol:

Cheers,

-----Added 7/16/2009 at 12:07:43 EST-----

Yes, that is true...and I have seen the same thing...... up to a point (GULP, and hopefully that point is not a sword)...

Hahahaha... very clever!

I have friends who minister in Angola, Sudan, Nigeria and Zimbabwe, and in the countries where they encounter Muslims, they have found that if they do not brandish some form of automatic assault rifles, then Muslims will not listen to them. In fact, they said that they tried the pacifist approach at first, only to find themselves on the edge of being martyred a few times. Now that they have the AK47, they have found their Muslim listeners more receptive. I think Dr. Livingstone had similar experiences, if I'm not mistaken.

Cheers,
 
Actually, the Muslims I've debated appreciate it when you take a hard line and don't mamby pamgy around. If you are mamby pamby, then they conclude that your religion must be effeminate and worthless. The conversation always gets deeper when I tell them that their god is a devil and is unjust.

That said, the effeminacy of American culture would make it particularly offensive to non-Muslims.

Cheers,

You tell muslims that their "god is a devil"? I am dying to know what their remarks have been when you have said such a thing.... In all seriousness. Why would you say such a thing? What meaningful argument can come from telling them their "god is a devil"? What point are you trying to prove when you make such a statement?

Julio,

Generally once I tell a muslim man that his god is a devil is when the gospel comes out. The point that generally bring up how satanic Allah is is how an earthly judge can't rightly let a criminal go without being evil, while Allah just lets people off scot-free without any kind of atonement (quite unlike the Christian God Who provides atonement through Jesus Christ).

Generally, by the time I have gotten to Allah is a devil, they are ready for me to say this, and it has never taken any of them by surprise. By this point, their confidence is usually shaken, and they don't really have a reply.

The point I am trying to prove is how little their god has in common with the God described in the Bible, and how offensive their idolatry and false way of salvation is.

Again, with all due respect, such a statement would sound very odd to the average American (due to causes cited earlier), but is straight-forward and manly enough to make a Muslim respect you. When using such tactics, I have never had a Muslim get belligerent with me... YET :lol:

Cheers,

-----Added 7/16/2009 at 12:07:43 EST-----

Yes, that is true...and I have seen the same thing...... up to a point (GULP, and hopefully that point is not a sword)...

Hahahaha... very clever!

I have friends who minister in Angola, Sudan, Nigeria and Zimbabwe, and in the countries where they encounter Muslims, they have found that if they do not brandish some form of automatic assault rifles, then Muslims will not listen to them. In fact, they said that they tried the pacifist approach at first, only to find themselves on the edge of being martyred a few times. Now that they have the AK47, they have found their Muslim listeners more receptive. I think Dr. Livingstone had similar experiences, if I'm not mistaken.

Cheers,

When dealing with Muslims I find the frank and very open approach, most Americans would call it blunt or rude, to be the only avenue of discussion that brings any opportunity to share the gospel to listening ears. You can be very direct and still show respect and kindness.
 
I guess I'm in the minority here.

I find the church sign to be fine.

I know several evangelists that used terms like:

  • blind guide
  • brood of vipers
  • foolish
  • of their father the devil
  • whitewashed tombs
  • full of dead men's bones
  • deceivers
  • what you worship in ignorance i now proclaim to you...

So telling the truth on a sign is just that; telling the truth on a sign.

The the only objection to this is the argument from pragmatism:

"What if they are repelled by us"

"What will this accomplish?"

"How will they see our love?"

"This kind of thing never works"


In an indirect way...all of those objections are saying the same thing; the truth is less important than perceived results.


I think that the bottom line is this: The truth sets people free. Nobody likes the truth when they are unregenerate; that's just a fact.

I would have no problem if a mosque put up a sign that said "Christians are white devils" because I know that that's exactly the way they see us and they are being truthful.
 
I guess I'm in the minority here.

I find the church sign to be fine.

I know several evangelists that used terms like:

  • blind guide
  • brood of vipers
  • foolish
  • of their father the devil
  • whitewashed tombs
  • full of dead men's bones
  • deceivers
  • what you worship in ignorance i now proclaim to you...

So telling the truth on a sign is just that; telling the truth on a sign.

The the only objection to this is the argument from pragmatism:

"What if they are repelled by us"

"What will this accomplish?"

"How will they see our love?"

"This kind of thing never works"


In an indirect way...all of those objections are saying the same thing; the truth is less important than perceived results.


I think that the bottom line is this: The truth sets people free. Nobody likes the truth when they are unregenerate; that's just a fact.

I would have no problem if a mosque put up a sign that said "Christians are white devils" because I know that that's exactly the way they see us and they are being truthful.

I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.
 
In cases like that you can always easily tell if the person/s who put up that sign are worshipping the true Gospel or the Southern Baptist Republican Gospel. All you have to do is go there at night and add another sign that says "Judaism is of the Devil" and see how long they leave it up.

Robert, gotta watch that FAUX NEWS channel. As far as Muslims hating White people, you can test yourself. Think of the most radical Muslim ethnic group around, and if you've been doing your homework you get Chechens. Type Chechen in at google images, and see what they look like.
 
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I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.

Gotcha...I should have been more clear.. :eek:
 
I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.

What are you talking about, Rich?
 
Robert, gotta watch that FAUX NEWS channel. As far as Muslims hating White people, you can test yourself. Think of the most radical Muslim ethnic group around, and if you've been doing your homework you get Chechens. Type Chechen in at google images, and see what they look like.

I was referring to the Quran, and the "official belief" not individual Muslim beliefs as like any religion; they differ.

The Quran says:

They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden Paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil‑doers there will be no helpers. They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve. Will they not rather turn unto Allah and seek forgiveness of Him? For Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (Surah 5:72-74, emp. added).

And in the news recently; persecution of Christians by Muslims has increased in Iraq:

Persecution of Christians Increasing in Iraq « News of Persecution & Suffering « International Christian Concern


A converted Christian family is facing persecution by being deported back to Egypt

Why is Britain deporting persecuted Christians? « News of Persecution & Suffering « International Christian Concern

And I retract the "white devils" statement; it was incorrect. I had my wires crossed.
 
I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.

What are you talking about, Rich?

If you make a comment on what you believe, it may be honest (based on your defective database) but not true/truth.

Truth is absolute. Oh, there I go again with another presupposition:rolleyes:
 
If you make a comment on what you believe, it may be honest (based on your defective database) but not true/truth.

Truth is absolute. Oh, there I go again with another presupposition

That's what I don't understand. Taking it as a given that Muslim's hate White people.
 
If you make a comment on what you believe, it may be honest (based on your defective database) but not true/truth.

Truth is absolute. Oh, there I go again with another presupposition

That's what I don't understand. Taking it as a given that Muslim's hate White people.

They assume (stereotype) the typical American is a nominal cultural Christian or Jew. If you don't embrace Islam, you are to be exploited and eliminated (my summary of what Koran says to do with infidels). It would be better expressed that they hate the typical, non Moslem, American.
 
That might be an accurate depiction of, say, Middle Eastern Muslims, but I don't know that American Muslims tend towards the same thing. A lot of them are being "Americanized" just like most other religions.
 
I agree and I see it as a cult and a false belief system

I disagree with using the word truthful. That is not the truth. However it is a honest expression of their incorrect belief system.

Gotcha...I should have been more clear.. :eek:

:detective:I agree and I see it as a cult and a false belief system. I am a Reformed Protestant and a Presbyterian and an ex roman catholic and while I renounced the pope and roman catholicsim AND BELIEVE ROMAN CATHOLICISM TO ALSO BE A CULT AND FALSE RELIGION, I DO NOT BELIEVE THE R C CHURCH AND HER MEMBERS ARE SATANIC.

I DO BELIEVE THAT ROMAN CATHOLICISM WAS SUBVERTED BY THE DEVIL TO DISTORT THE TRUE MESSAGE OF THE GOSPEL' THAT CHIST DIED TO SAVE ALL WHO ACCEPT AND BELIEVE IN HIM ALONE! I AM NO LONGER A ROMAN CATHOLIC BECAUSE I BELIEVE IN THE 5 SOLAS OF PROTESTANTISM ... AND I AM A PRESBYTERIAN BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT WE ARE THE CLOSEST TO THE CHURCH THAT Christ INTENDED IT TO BE FOR ALL TIME. :westminster:

IN GRACE,
DUDLEY
 
"All nonChristians are going to burn in hell"?? Well, that is the gospel, is it not?

Nope, it is not.... well not all of it. The Gospel is: Jesus Christ came to Earth and died to save those sinners that are going to Hell.
 
I hope this makes sense.

One one hand, we are called to be as inoffensive and gentle as possible.

On the other hand, we are called to be firm and brave proponents of Truth.

The preceding posts have argued the benefits of both types of callings.

The question is what is an appropriate sign to reach out to Muslims?

Some random and hopefully worthwhile signs:

"Is Allah really the same as the Christian God?"

"Does Allah really love?"

"Do you really prefer Islam over Christianity?"
 
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